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The Great UFO Debate

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posted on Aug, 6 2005 @ 03:46 PM
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Dr. Seth Shostak, SETI Institute Senior Astronomer, discusses his skepticism regarding the visitation of Earth by extraterrestrial beings or craft. According to Shostak, there has never been presented any credible evidence that such has occurred.



The problem I have with the claim that strange craft are prowling our planet is not with the transportation mode, but with the evidence. I’ll worry about how they got here once I’m convinced that they’ve really made the scene.

[...]

The bottom line is that the evidence for extraterrestrial visitors has not convinced many scientists. Very few academics are writing papers for refereed journals about alien craft or their occupants. Confronted with this, the UFO experts usually take refuge in two possible explanations:

(1) The material that would be convincing proof has been collected and secreted away by the U.S. government. While endlessly appealing, this is an argument from ignorance (tantamount to saying “we can’t show you good evidence because we haven’t got it”), and perforce implies that every government in the world has efficiently squirreled away all alien artifacts. Unless, of course, the extraterrestrials only visit the U.S., where retrieval of material that falls to Earth is supposedly a perfected art form.

(2) Scientists have simply refused to look carefully at this phenomenon. In other words, the scientists should blame themselves for the fact that the visitation hypothesis has failed to sway them.

[...]

The burden of proof is on those making the claims, not those who find the data dubious. If there are investigators who are convinced that craft from other worlds are buzzing ours, then they should present the absolute best evidence they have, and not resort to explanations that appeal to conspiratorial cover-ups or the failure of others to be open to the idea. The UFO advocates are not asking us to believe something either trivial or peripheral, for after all, there could hardly be any discovery more dramatic or important than visitors from other worlds. If we could prove that the aliens are here, I would be as awestruck as anyone. But I await a compelling Exhibit A.

seti.org



Please visit the link provided for the complete story.


I tend to agree with the good doctor. Any scientist who could substantiate an alien presence on Earth would be a good candidate for fame and fortune. That there isn't any real academic interest in this subject pretty much indicates that the evidence just isn't there. I would go so far as to suggest that there is no evidence of extraterrestrial life at all.


[edit on 2005/8/6 by GradyPhilpott]




posted on Aug, 6 2005 @ 04:47 PM
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It would be nice to have confirmation from the scientific community which is controlled by the government regarding UFO's. But I've got sense enough to know that that is not going to happen.

There is no reason for the powers that be to acknowlege UFO's, in fact, there is every reason on this earth to hide it from the public and that is what they are doing.

It's foolish too seek the truth about UFO's. If you are lucky enough to see one, join the crowd of lucky people who learn soon enough to forget about trying to convince those poor unfortunate unlucky non-witnesses.




posted on Aug, 6 2005 @ 05:14 PM
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the UFO experts usually take refuge in two possible explanations


I would say that after years of research the UFO experts reach the logical conclusion that both of these two explanations are probable. And I would be inclined to agree.

After all, if it were proven they are here, then there would be no point in listening to the stars, and Dr. Shostak would be out of a job, right?



posted on Aug, 6 2005 @ 05:15 PM
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Originally posted by highhorse313


There is no reason for the powers that be to acknowlege UFO's, in fact, there is every reason on this earth to hide it from the public and that is what they are doing.


Please name three.



posted on Aug, 6 2005 @ 07:00 PM
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Originally posted by highhorse313

There is no reason for the powers that be to acknowlege UFO's, in fact, there is every reason on this earth to hide it from the public and that is what they are doing.



The powers of Earth cannot hide the UFO's and alien races. They can only hide their own crimes and dealings with them. They have to use threats, weapons, blackmail and propaganda to force the alien races to stay away. They disguise any physical evidence that can't be destroyed, and threaten or buy popular public figures who get close to the truth.

Wherever the aliens show up, more bad stories are generated against them. The alien races have to sneak in, to get in, and the humans who actually work with them (not just say they do) become targets of the Earth powers when they are discovered trying to educate others.

But the aliens are getting in and people are increasingly witnessing them, and humans are getting wiser to the ways of govt anyway, and the govts can't keep up this charade right under our noses forever.

The leading govts involved in the conspiracy against alien life will never disclose anything. We have to find out all about the alien races our own, and we can only trust the alien races for that.







[edit on 8/6/2005 by EarthSister]



posted on Aug, 6 2005 @ 07:12 PM
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Originally posted by EarthSister

Originally posted by highhorse313

There is no reason for the powers that be to acknowlege UFO's, in fact, there is every reason on this earth to hide it from the public and that is what they are doing.



The powers of Earth cannot hide the UFO's and alien races. They can only hide their own crimes and dealings with them. They have to use threats, weapons, blackmail and propaganda to force the alien races to stay away. They disguise any physical evidence that can't be destroyed, and threaten or buy popular public figures who get close to the truth.


Do you have any theories on why the powers that be are doing this? There must be some type of motivation, no?



posted on Aug, 6 2005 @ 08:03 PM
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Originally posted by William One Sac
Do you have any theories on why the powers that be are doing this? There must be some type of motivation, no?


The same reason why military projects are kept secret until publicly acknowledged. To keep a technological advantage over other countries.

Other than that, I think they worry about a social breakdown coming from disclosure. There are several religious implications as well. People would ask a lot of questions that can't be answered because they simply don't know the answers.

There are more reasons to keep it secret than to disclose, so it remains a secret.



posted on Aug, 6 2005 @ 08:11 PM
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Originally posted by Hal9000


The same reason why military projects are kept secret until publicly acknowledged. To keep a technological advantage over other countries.



I think this addresses this concern:




(1) The material that would be convincing proof has been collected and secreted away by the U.S. government. While endlessly appealing, this is an argument from ignorance (tantamount to saying “we can’t show you good evidence because we haven’t got it”), and perforce implies that every government in the world has efficiently squirreled away all alien artifacts. Unless, of course, the extraterrestrials only visit the U.S., where retrieval of material that falls to Earth is supposedly a perfected art form.

seti.org




Originally posted by Hal9000

Other than that, I think they worry about a social breakdown coming from disclosure. There are several religious implications as well. People would ask a lot of questions that can't be answered because they simply don't know the answers.


The world has dealt with a lot of revelations over the millennia without social meltdown. I don't know why the knowledge that aliens have visited would do such a thing.


[edit on 2005/8/6 by GradyPhilpott]



posted on Aug, 6 2005 @ 08:40 PM
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Originally posted by GradyPhilpott
I think this addresses this concern:

The doctor’s statement implies that other countries would not keep this secret, but I think they would. I will go as far to say that there is cooperation among other countries to keeping it secret. Other countries like Brazil are in fact releasing government documents with regard to UFO's. Obviously you know this because you posted in this thread.

www.abovetopsecret.com...




The world has dealt with a lot of revelations over the millennia without social meltdown. I don't know why the knowledge that aliens have visited would do such a thing.

I agree, I think after the initial shock people would adjust. But I think this mentality is based on the 1938 Radio broadcast of the War of the Worlds, in which people did freak out.



posted on Aug, 6 2005 @ 09:10 PM
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The world has dealt with a lot of revelations over the millennia without social meltdown. I don't know why the knowledge that aliens have visited would do such a thing.


Do you remember what happened when orson wells broadcast war of the worlds over the radio. Despite telling the audience that it was a work of fiction every 15 minutes, the entire country went hay-wire. People robbed, looted, vandalized, and even killed themselves or others. Imagine what the public reaction would be if it were true.

"We have gathered here today to tell you all that we have been pulling the wool over your eyes for the past half century, denying you technology and ridiculing people who speak the truth, all so that we can keep a technological advantage over enemy nations aka the Soviet Union, which hasn't existed for the past 15 years."

How would that go over with the general populace?

[edit on 6-8-2005 by DaTerminator]

[edit on 6-8-2005 by DaTerminator]



posted on Aug, 6 2005 @ 09:22 PM
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Originally posted by William One Sac

Do you have any theories on why the powers that be are doing this? There must be some type of motivation, no?


William One Sac

Yes, I will try to keep it simple. There is so much more to it than this, and I don't understand it all, but this is my personal understanding from all my own experience with the aliens and with the govt and with the ufo field.

Although alien life has always visited Earth and had personal contact with a number of certain individual humans, the humans who had contact did not necessarily understand it for what it was, or even become physically aware of it happening- a lot like today. The visiting races pretty much left us alone until we were mature enough as a race to communicate and understand advanced concepts, and until our developmental milestones necessitated proper introductions. This is the general rule throughout organized space for advanced races in proximity of primitive ones.

The visiting races have always made their presence known enough to be recorded through our history, but as you can see, we dogmatized whatever we witnessed that we did not understand yet, and we still do that too, led by the motivation of church business. Until we were more of an organized, civilized world with wide communication, there was no sense in beginning our formal education.

As the govts discovered alien life increasingly visiting Earth, they were just cautious in all ways initially. But when the time came for the alien races to open a dialog with humanity, the leading govts wanted exclusive control of the opportunities of alien contact. Some of the visiting races offered our leading govts their assistance with our major world problems, but the govts only wanted certain things, and not what the alien races wanted to share. The alien races would never share what the leading govts wanted, which was technology for weapons, world dominance, power and wealth. The alien races wanted to help us feed, educate and house everyone, develop and provide medicine, unite our countries and clean our air and water.

The visiting races began writing many coded messages in our crops to all of humanity in spite of govt control of information. The special affects prevented plagiarism and the codes protected copyrights, but the publics were still too willing to believe whatever Earth authorities told them to believe about them. And govt and special interest groups created so many more crop circles and pushed them forward in the media, that all crop circles looked silly to the misinformed. Leaders in the field making headway to solving the codes were threatened and bought into public silence. The alien races keep the codes from humanity to protect them, but all the messages are cataloged on Earth and have a great value in the telling of the history and intentions of visitation.

The leading govts began tracking the activities of the visiting races by growing technology, but also by tracking and monitoring the individual humans who are known to have alien contact. The govt finds these people by monitoring the media and infiltrating the ufo field and abduction support groups, often posing as researchers or fellow abductees, one at every crossroad. Gross disinformation is maintained at the top of the popular opinions of the groups this way as well. The investigative pool is stocked. Understand, that when a human has an experience, and is confused and afraid, so he joins a group or reads a book, THIS is where he learns all about the aliens and what happened to him. Few humans trust alien life.

During all of this time, the most advanced races visiting were progressively inviting the others into one body and set of standards of behavior and visitation. No visiting race was deliberately trying to hurt any humans, but a few of them were naturally inept at working with humans, and some were taking advantage of humans. Two races were using particular humans to create hybrid races between themselves and their humans. These races are who humans call The Grays. They did it because they had to and because they could.

When the leading govts discovered the hybrid programs, they wanted in on them and anything else they could get. They sabotaged the programs by spreading horror stories of propaganda through the field, harassing any known humans who had alien contact, and held certain humans for "ransom" to force these two races into trade agreements. The agreements were basically to allow abductions of certain humans in exchange for technologies. The Grays were not willing, but desperate, and bided time by trading harmless technologies.

The most advanced races stepped in to help The Grays break these ties with the leading govts, particularly the USA, and to help them get what they need to sustain their races without the use or abuse of any humans. Both races of The Grays were given an ultimatum and time limit to comply. One complied, and the other did not or could not and was permanently dismissed from visiting Earth, along with a few other pesky races who did not have a legitimate reason to be here.

The propaganda launched against The Grays particularly, had an all-encompassing affect against all visiting races, and on the growing knowledge and perceptions of other humans about their own alien contact. Normal contact continued throughout all of this time by spirit, but as humans began to discover their alien contact physically, their irrational fear was largely based on the completely fabricated and grossly exaggerated stories of alien abduction. Many thousands of humans had (have) positive, progressive, educational alien contact, but these people didn't frequent abduction support groups, and their stories are in no demand with the media sensationalism.

There are 218 races visiting Earth. All of them work together as of April 2000. There are no more abductions of any humans by any alien race. And there are no more hybrid people being created.

The leading govts continue to conceal their crimes, past and present, create fear and mistrust in the minds of the publics against other life, and to search for greater ways to control the alien races, even when it means shooting them out of the sky, and ruining the lives of alien experiencers and their families.

The very last thing the govts want, is for the publics to start listening to the alien races instead of them. When we do that, we are going to learn too much by example of the races ahead of us, and make legitimate demands of our govts for a better way for all to live on Earth, ending their exclusive, lucrative power over the suffering of humanity.







[edit on 8/6/2005 by EarthSister]



posted on Aug, 6 2005 @ 09:27 PM
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I wasn't going to post on this one, because some of this is getting repetitive. People on one side asking for evidence that will stand up or proof, and those on the other side, who seem to know intuitionally (not just intuitively) that the evidence is there, yet obscured.

The thought that aliens would have to sneak in under the line of sight of the government seems, to my old addlepated mind, to be simply ludicrous.
If they are as far advanced as the various UFO encounters would have us believe (able to arm and disarm nuclear missles from a distance) what makes anyone think they don't have the capability to simply walk in and say, "Whoop! We are here"! And leave no doubt.


Once again, I will say, as I have before ... There is evidence of something happening, but no evidence that it is energy beings who channel themselves through people who have websites and self published xerox copy books, who are from Sirius, or whatever.

No matter what the intuitionally inclined say or believe, it doesn't be real until it's real. If you want to get people in line with you, calling names and casting aspersions on people and/or governments does not work that well.
If you simply want to feel superior in your own mind, then it's probably working.



posted on Aug, 6 2005 @ 09:31 PM
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Originally posted by DaTerminator

Do you remember what happened when orson wells broadcast war of the worlds over the radio. Despite telling the audience that it was a work of fiction every 15 minutes, the entire country went hay-wire. People robbed, looted, vandalized, and even killed themselves or others. Imagine what the public reaction would be if it were true.



Orson Welles broadcast a very realistic dramatization of an attack by Martians of the Planet Earth, even if he did acknowledge that it was fiction every fifteen minutes and this was at a time when many still believed that an advanced civilization inhabited Mars. As late as 1924, earthlings listened for radio signals from Mars -- at the request of the U.S. government. And in 1938 Orson Welles' radio antics frightened thousands of listeners into believing Martians had invaded, first targeting New Jersey.


[edit on 2005/8/6 by GradyPhilpott]



posted on Aug, 6 2005 @ 09:33 PM
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I think this will help. Read it closely...

It gives some insight into the debunker's tactics.

www.planetarymysteries.com...

I especially these points:

"*Avoid examining the actual evidence. This allows you to say with impunity, "I have seen absolutely no evidence to support such ridiculous claims!" (Note that this technique has withstood the test of time, and dates back at least to the age of Galileo. By simply refusing to look through his telescope, the ecclesiastical authorities bought the Church over three centuries' worth of denial free and clear!)"

and

"*Since the public tends to be unclear about the distinction between evidence and proof, do your best to help maintain this murkiness. If absolute proof is lacking, state categorically that there is no evidence.
*If sufficient evidence has been presented to warrant further investigation of an unusual phenomenon, argue that "evidence alone proves nothing!" Ignore the fact that preliminary evidence is not supposed to prove *anything*."



posted on Aug, 6 2005 @ 09:41 PM
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The thought that aliens would have to sneak in under the line of sight of the government seems, to my old addlepated mind, to be simply ludicrous.
If they are as far advanced as the various UFO encounters would have us believe (able to arm and disarm nuclear missles from a distance) what makes anyone think they don't have the capability to simply walk in and say, "Whoop! We are here"! And leave no doubt.


Well who says they want their presence known to everybody? We simply can't know. All we know for absolute FACT right now is that people have seen and videotaped/photographed strange phenomena which appear to be some sort of craft, and that many people have come forward with reports of contact with extraterrestrials.


Once again, I will say, as I have before ... There is evidence of something happening, but no evidence that it is energy beings who channel themselves through people who have websites and self published xerox copy books, who are from Sirius, or whatever.


I agree. While these channelers or "contactees" stories are interesting to read, they are probably just fabrications. I would say the reports from military officials are more credible and reliable.


[edit on 6-8-2005 by DaTerminator]



posted on Aug, 6 2005 @ 09:51 PM
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Originally posted by EarthSister
Many thousands of humans had (have) positive, progressive, educational alien contact, but these people didn't frequent abduction support groups, and their stories are in no demand with the media sensationalism.



What about Oprah?

[edit on 2005/8/6 by GradyPhilpott]



posted on Aug, 6 2005 @ 10:18 PM
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Originally posted by GradyPhilpott
I tend to agree with the good doctor. Any scientist who could substantiate an alien presence on Earth would be a good candidate for fame and fortune. That there isn't any real academic interest in this subject pretty much indicates that the evidence just isn't there. I would go so far as to suggest that there is no evidence of extraterrestrial life at all.


For other readers that may not make the fine disticitions, the search for extraterrestrial intelligence out there is a widely accepted academic pursuit. In fact, it's off the SETI site this article is being quoted.

And no. They have no evidence. Thus the search.

But it's also worthy of consideration that those with $100 million dishes pointed into space that have spent 50 years staring at a computer screen looking for audio blips have little reason to ever look at the sky or give an ounce of credence to those that say their pursuits are pointless as the UFO's are already here.

And "UFO's" (unidentified flying objects) most definitely are here. They just aren't identified. Thus the field of UFOlogy.



posted on Aug, 6 2005 @ 10:41 PM
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Originally posted by sigung86

The thought that aliens would have to sneak in under the line of sight of the government seems, to my old addlepated mind, to be simply ludicrous.


Think of Earth like a prison, the leading govts are the guards who feed our minds and use our bodies. They own us. It's ok if some of us see the aliens in the sky if we must, as long as the guards can convince most that they are something else- anything else they want us to think, even that the people who see them are lying. As long as we are afraid, and don't find out about the aliens ourselves for what and who they really are, we don't know any better. Heck, we don't even know we are in prison.

But when the aliens try to bring information in to us, they have to sneak in so they don't get shot, and to try to prevent the guards from seeing who they are meeting, and who is learning dangerous secrets of freedom. The more information a prisoner is given by the aliens, the more danger he is put in if and when discovered. The aliens coming in, is what names that particular prisoner a threat to security, and he will be separated from the others and dealt with. The information is lost anyway.


If they are as far advanced as the various UFO encounters would have us believe (able to arm and disarm nuclear missles from a distance) what makes anyone think they don't have the capability to simply walk in and say, "Whoop! We are here"! And leave no doubt.


Of course they have that ability, and they are showing people increasingly. But what exactly is that evidence OF today? What does it prove ABOUT them as people and what they are doing here? Wouldn't it be for most people, anything their govt decides to SAY it proves? Or anything their govt leaks, mainlines through the grapevine of the ufo field? Who would you trust for the rest of the information, the aliens or your govt?

Anyway, the alien races are going to show up suddenly in crafts for everybody to see. Keep watching Japan. But don't believe anything you hear about the aliens after that unless you hear it from the aliens.







[edit on 8/6/2005 by EarthSister]



posted on Aug, 6 2005 @ 10:50 PM
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Originally posted by EarthSister
Anyway, the alien races are going to show up suddenly in crafts for everybody to see. Keep watching Japan. But don't believe anything you hear about the aliens after that unless you hear from the aliens.


First the Prophet Yahweh told us to watch Las Vegas in July, now EarthSister tells us it's Japan. Could you be more specific, please?



posted on Aug, 6 2005 @ 11:05 PM
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GradyPhilpott

I am a regular, honest person who has clear, extensive alien contact. I just share what I learn from my own experience.

I know it from the organization of visiting races, that they are preparing to show up over Tokyo Japan. I don't know when, except soon. They expect their relationship with Japan to become fully diplomatic, and the USA to try to ruin any information coming out of it to the rest of the world.

The organization of visiting races asked the USA to host first open contact for our world, and the USA refused.

"Soon" means that it's close enough to tell people to watch for it, and they tell me that things are moving into place and progressing. Otherwise, I don't know when.

I have a little more on my site about First Contact. The page is called First Contact.

PS I love Oprah. Dr. John Mack was a wonderful man too. I got to talk with him a number of times at local gatherings. Gentle, patient, intelligent man. I don't think he knew what to make of me, but he asked very good questions and listened carefully to my answers. My husband says he was being polite.

My husband and I were at the conference at MIT. Everybody there who spoke represented the ufo field, including Dr. Mack. Nobody who spoke officially represented the alien races, but one researcher rubbed against the grain well, and he got laughed at and barked at by some of the other speakers. That man had the respect and support of many races.








[edit on 8/6/2005 by EarthSister]



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