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A Call for Truth

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posted on Aug, 5 2005 @ 07:01 PM
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hello all, this is my first post and before I post my opinion, I wanted to check how "free" this place is.

I have a ax to grind with all things paranormal and I don't want to just piss people off, I want to know if my rant will or can be tolerated.

I don't wish to be one of those people who posts and runs.

Is it ok to be dissenting around here?
I haven't seen much of it.




posted on Aug, 5 2005 @ 07:05 PM
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Say what you like just keep it within the Terms And Conditions Of Use .

Have fun and be happy.



posted on Aug, 5 2005 @ 07:06 PM
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Its fine to disagree with things paranormal and what not, as long as you back up your thoughts ect... Its good to have a mix as long as its done in a tastefull way,

you also may enjoy this thread, www.abovetopsecret.com...

[edit on 5-8-2005 by asala]



posted on Aug, 5 2005 @ 07:24 PM
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I think this is within the terms and conditions.
I don't want to start another thread so I figured I would just post here.


I apologize in advance for the anger this will most likely cause.


Don't read the rest if you're sensitive and TRULY belive.

As I read and read, this forum and others and I see over and over the tales and claims of paranormal, I get angry... really angry.

I see countless people in my own life succumb to the "paranormal".
My Aunt going to the "reader" every second Monday of each month to hear what of hers and others fate.

My Grandmother sits and watches John Edwards or the latest iteration of John Edwards on TV and Video's she has purchased, weeps with the participants and knowingly nods her head in belief.

There are more personal examples, but I'll spare you. (and me)


On hundreds of tv shows, websites, and towns all accross America there are peddlers of stories and "related" products for sale, Psychics proclaiming what they know, for a "fee", books and videos on unauthenticated topics, all for sale.
Conventions, speakers, abductee's, investigators.. on and on.

My blood boils so hot.
Because I know, there is no such thing.

No predictions, no readings, no special powers, no ghosts, no monsters, no aliens.

They are selling Fiction. How do I know?
Simple.

There is no one single shred of proof anywhere on this planet.
Not a whiff of the paranormal.

You thinking you can read you dog's mind, doesn't count as "proof".

There are odd things to be sure, but nothing paranormal.

There is not one of you who hold a single shred of evidence of a ghost.
Not one who has an authenticated and dated prediction.
No DNA of an Alien, or scrap from a downed ship.
No foreign substances or metals... nothing.
None of you can talk to animals or read someone else mind.

You are all just either lying, truly deceiving yourselves or at the worse, a perpetrator of falsehoods for financial or personal gain.
And it is sad.

You know I am right, you know you didn't see a ghost, you know your beloved didn't really talk to you during the "session". You know the Psychic only told you what you wanted to hear and what they deduced they could pass on as truth.

You KNOW


When you wake up in the morning to a ringing telephone and wonder how your dream ended with a ringing telephone and ask yourself "how did my mind KNOW?"
It is because you want to feel special. Different.

When your brother calls and you Knew it was your brother and
you feel you just might have a little of the precog ability...
You neglect to remember that the previous 10 calls you thought were someone else.


No Psychics have ever gone on record anywhere to tell a specific tale that has specifically come to pass. Never, not once in all human history.
That may have come in handy before one of the biggest events of recent humanity (9/11)

No Psychics Detectives have ever solved a crime without the facts first.

Never has there been a ghost caught on tape that couldn't be a trick of light or man.
No levitations, examples of telekinesis, remote viewing...
No close up and non blurry image or video of a spacecraft.
No Bigfoot pictures that haven't been proved a hoax.. no loc Ness, no Tasmanian devil.
It goes on and on.. and yet, still you believe.

Of course, you believe "selectively".

Some of you believe in ghosts but not the Loc ness, some Vice versa.
Some in telekinesis, some in Psychic readers.
Some in Ghosts and some in Aliens.

You are all being deceived, by others or by yourself with the need to believe.


I read things on this forum where individuals are trying to convince themselves (with your help) that they are "special" somehow.

That's all it is really, the answers to a few questions.

"Why am I here?", “Am I just like everyone else?", "Am I more...?"

A man says he knows who is calling before the phone rings.
Sisters who know the other is in trouble half way around the country.
A distraught woman who see's her dead son in the empty halls at night.

More and more, on and on...

and you all encourage it.

No one asks if the guy only gets phone calls from one person, or the calls usually happen at the same time of day.
No one asks the sisters how many other times they had feelings of dread that did not fulfill themselves.
No one talks to the woman about loneliness and the disaster of loss and what it does to you and your mind.

No, you all just say..
"Wow, I had the same kind of experience once....I wonder if I'm....."

It all comes down to money or personal ego.

It is so sad, I feel so bad for all of you.
To actually believe in something that can never be proven just because you have heard or read about it, or your overactive mind tricked you with light from the corner of your eye or the creak of the house sounded like uncle Bill or because some slick oil salesman said so?

I am sorry; I am angry, just so angry at all of this.
I wish some people would just wake up.
I wish someone could prove me wrong, but you can't.

I know many of you will just dismiss this as someone who has never been "fortunate" enough to experience a paranormal event and I should be quiet and respect the lives and tales of others.

I would give into the Paranormal if there were any proof, even a shred of authenticated proof.

But it just is a big lie. It is shameful. When I see this stuff, I am ashamed to be a human.
Imagine if there were Aliens?
What would they think of our tales?
No wonder they haven't landed.



posted on Aug, 5 2005 @ 07:39 PM
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wow you have made some mighty big claims there lol.

Now i agree with you on things like TV shows, selling certain products, and John edwards lol but.............

All i see really is an opinion here
wheres the proof that they do not excist?

There are many unexplained things in this world, and i really dont believe that others here who have seen a ghost are lying or in anyway trying to make money out of it, Yes sure theres those who make it up, but theres a fair few that do not

Gosh i can see this getting a few responses



posted on Aug, 5 2005 @ 07:46 PM
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I agree with your skepticism a lot of whats out there is bull# but some is fact and trying to differentiate between the two is why this forum exists. I for one would like to know the truth and thats what we are longing for as Human Beings. Do same as me if you don't agree with a post say so and try and prove why you don't believe, if you believe in something post it and let others think what they feel. To talk about a subject is good, it gives us a sense of being with other people i think.



posted on Aug, 5 2005 @ 08:05 PM
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I didn't read it all because I've got to go, but I'm pretty sure that Edwards is a hoax.

[edit on 5-8-2005 by Nventual]



posted on Aug, 5 2005 @ 08:17 PM
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I hope nobody gets angry here because I really do want to have a calm and logical conversation about this. Not a debate of "real-not real" going back and forth over and over with no progress; A conversation.
I read every word of your post. You don't need to apologize for possibly offending people, you just gave your beliefs. Don't get angry. Don't let it boil your blood. Some people believe things that you don't. That is okay, although it may seem like a waste of their life to you. Now you have told your side, and I will tell mine. I will try to make it as logical and simple for you as possible.

The one thing that struck me is, you remind me so much of myself a while ago before I got "suckered into the paranormal" as you may say
.



There is no one single shred of proof anywhere on this planet.


You can't back up that statement any more than any paranormal enthusiast can back up theirs
. Technically, there is a much better chance that at least one little tiny bit of these topics has validity. If I had to bet my money on at least one paranormal thing in the entire world being valid vs nothing at all, I would bet it on the 1. Not that either could ever be fully proven.

I have been interested in and researching the paranormal/spiritual for about six years now. I was quite skeptical and analytical when I began, and I still am. I want to find something to be true, but I don't just make it up. I have covered every topic you could think of. All the ones that you mention in your post and more. I have found that it is actually possible to be both skeptical and open-minded both at once. You sound like you are both already too.

First off, I rule out anyone/anything that is asking for money for their 'services' such as psychic hotlines, etc. right away. Just the way you do.

From the rest, I read up about, weigh for logic, facts, validity, sources, and experiment with them myself if possible.

First for the sake of being taken completely seriously, I would like to say that I do not experiment with anything that requires drugs or alcohol to take place, nor have I dabbled with anything like that. As far as I know, I have no mental illnesses. I do not claim to communicate with the dead or any other type of supernatural being. I have never seen an alien or ghost, and I think I'd have a heart attack and die right there if I did.

From what I have experimented with paranormal-wise, nothing has worked completely/100% of the time. I have never gotten any form of telekinesis or anything to work, although trying it out with the honest intention of either proving or disproving it, not leaning either way. Some things I have found partial-truth of, but I can't prove anything paranormal 100%. Things like Astral Projection and Remote Viewing, I have found quite a bit of validity in. I'm sorry but I don't want to really type out much more in regards to every detail of every little thing I have ever experienced. It is quite a lot as you can imagine, plus I can't ever remember it all at once anyways. Hopefully you understand.

But basically, if you start looking around long enough and are totally impartial, you will start to read a lot of crazy stuff. From all the stuff I have read, sorted through the believable from the absolute nonsense, I have come to the conclusion that there is more to life than what we know so far, if nothing else.

I like to consider myself interested in the paranormal, not necessarily a "believer" in it. I try stuff out to see for myself, pick and choose pieces and put them together in an overall larger picture, and research research research. I believe the best thing that you can do is research and know for yourself. Know, don't just settle for believing.

I started out like you, thinking that all of this was complete bs. But gradually all the stuff started to pile up and I became into it enough to at least give it consideration. As you see, I have had minimal (if any at all) sort of "paranormal" experience, even when I go looking for it. I am not easily pursuaded and I don't allow my imagination to allow itself to get carried away. Still you can see that I do believe that most of the things that are talked about on this site are possible.

Sorry, this is all out of order and very incomplete. I forgot a lot of what I wanted to say by the time I got parts of it typed out
. Anyway... if you have any specific questions, feel free to ask. I just want to get some of this posted for now and we will see what happens from there =). Hopefully what I have said gives the impression that I am a logical, sane, reasonable person who is willing to take anything into consideration, but blindly accept nothing.

I know that it seems like every person into the paranormal are total whackos. I know that there does seem to be a lot of them like that. But please realize that there are some intelligent and logical people who are willing to accept the possibility of such things. If you start looking around, you may start to find that there is more to life than you originally thought.

Also, I assume that you share the same views on religion/consider it as paranormal as well, but my fingers are too tired to even touch that topic at the moment.

I am not doing anything that I do in relation to the paranormal for personal gain. I don't get any money from posting here. I am not famous and don't have any aspirations to be. I only want to find the truth for myself, and share what I know with other people if they are interested in the same thing and are willing to listen. I do not believe selectively, except for selecting the reasonable from the unreasonable. My knowledge really spans all paranormal topics.

Thank you for reading my reply.

By the way....There was a mistake in your post. I found it upon a second reading. You said that Tasmanian Devils aren't real. They are... they are real, normal, animals. I have seen them in the zoo.
. You are either thinking of the tasmanian tiger (extinct but rumored alive), or the Jersey devil.

If the truth is that there are no paranormal phenomenon whatsoever, let's work together and find that truth. If the truth is that there is really some sort of paranormal phenomenon, let's work together and find that truth as well. But it can't be both. I only want the truth, and if the truth is proven, I will accept it. But unfortunately at this point in time, neither of us can prove our sides fully (if you consider me on the 'paranormal' side, I consider myself neutral). In many instances you can rule out the paranormal, but it is those few that you can't that keeps me going.

Perhaps I should be telling you all the things that I HAVE experienced, rather than what I haven't.. but I suppose there will be time for that later.

[edit on 5-8-2005 by Yarcofin]

[edit on 5-8-2005 by Yarcofin]


[edit on 5-8-2005 by Yarcofin]



posted on Aug, 5 2005 @ 08:34 PM
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The thing is....

The original poster is claiming the nonexistance of something.

To be specific - s/he's claiming that X, Y and Z do not exist.

Realistically, s/he doesn't need to prove this - it's up to a claimant to prove otherwise. You can't disprove a negative....though it's a handy way of making people actually work to back up their claims that the existance of something is real....

There are too many things not yet fully explainable, to make me disregard all claims of the supernatural; but my own research would tend to support the original poster in many instances. Not all, but many. I just can't disregard everything of that nature.

And the real tragedy of it all? People are being taken for granted, time after time, and being financially fleeced in the process, in addition to being emotionally manipulated to the hilt. Because they so dearly want to believe. Sometimes they need to believe.

And that makes them prime targets for the likes of John Edwards.*

*I can (and will, if it's deemed appropriate) go into much further detail into the unethical antics of John Edwards, Doris Stokes and others. Quite frankly, I believe these people to be manipulative money-grabbing frauds. But that's just me.



posted on Aug, 5 2005 @ 09:03 PM
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Wow

better than I expected, I really thought I would be flamed.
Awesome. I knew I liked this place for good reason.


In response.

My post here is because I am just so sick of the false claims and scams, TV shows and whatnot.
One of the networks has a new show on a Psychic Detective of some sort (or helper) and they promote it as REAL! Based on "True events"
This is udder nonsense and people eat it up.

People are being taken advantage of every second of every day and there are too many places where these hucksters can go to foster the believability of their claims.

(this site is a good example, no offense meant)


I KNOW there are unexplained things that happen every day.
But just because we do not know why, how or what, doesn't make it "paranormal"


THERE ARE NO SPECIAL POWERS OR ABILITIES BEYOND THE PHYSICAL.
NO PERSON HAS SPECIAL POWERS OR ABILITIES BEYOND THE PHYSICAL.


That's it. No proof is needed.
I do not NEED to prove no one has special powers, because it is already proven.

Are they all hiding, afraid to be persecuted ala "Xmen"?

Mine is not a claim, it is a statement of fact.


I could come up with any cockamamie theory and then tell people to disprove it. I have noticed a bunch of end of the world posts whose dates have come and gone.. where did the posters go? They came back as someone new, or claimed it would happpen at a future time...

The Ghosthunters show on Sci-Fi, I watched it because I like that stuff in the fantasy genre.. I figured I would watch to get a laugh and debunk them.. it was easy to do.

These guys had an episode where they were at a jail or something and the sound guy got knocked over by an "entity". They had it on tape and where shocked to see the tape play back. They thought they had proof.

To someone who is NOT a born skeptic, it is convincing.
The non skeptics do not even bother to disemminate the video and see if it is possible that a physical and not paranormal occurance is the reason.

Say,.. maybe the guy did it to himself (looked like it to me)

Another episode where they saw a figure run toward the camera and back..
Looked like someone in a cape to me.

That stuff is not proof and it is easily explainable.
Why can't they find a Ghost during the day? Why is it always at night?


What I am saying is that there are no provable predictions, no proof of aliens, no proof of ghosts.. no proof of telekenisis.

By "proof" I mean tangible evidence.

But yet, billions each year are spent, people are taken for a ride every minute of everyday because they WANT to believe and it sickens me.

It is easy to tell me,
"sure I agree, most are scammers.. but I just can't expalin everything, so therefore...."

Just because you cannot explain something doesn't make
it otherworldy or paranormal.

The world was not always round and the girls from Salem weren't alway normal. But we know different now.



posted on Aug, 5 2005 @ 09:24 PM
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Yes the girls in Salem were high on a natural form of '___' caused by a type of mold that grows on wheat if I remember correctly.

I sort of agree with what you said, although I think i may have misunderstood a little. About nothing being special or beyond the physical. I think that anything "paranormal", if it is real, will eventually just become accepted fact. There is nothing para-normal just because we don't understand it. Anything that is real is normal and occurs naturally in nature. If someone is psychic or can move things with their mind (or anything besides their body), it would have to be something that all people are capable of, if it was possible.

Please don't be hypocritical. You are claiming your statement that none of this is real, when you don't have definate proof. This is what you are ranting about the 'paranormals' doing in the first place. But disproving entirely is just as difficult as proving entirely, so let's just give it up and realize that neither are possible at this time in man's existance.

If I had experienced nothing at all, I would believe that this was all a load of crap. But I have experienced stuff. I was told to go lay down and think of nothing by someone, with no expectations and having never heard about Astral Projection, but I had many of the sensations associated with astral projection just by laying there. How would I just psych myself into feeling like I am vibrating and start breathing hard and having a very fast pulse, when I was just laying on a bed, not expecting anything to happen. I was actually laughing to myself about how stupid it was at the time, but it happened nonetheless. And OOBE has been one of my main topics of interest ever since, although I hae never had an out of body experience.

This is one of many such experiences. This is the one that got me into paranormal basically, in the first place.

I can only take you so far and tell you so much, and then this all comes down to personal experience. I think this post has come to a dead end if you have never experienced anything that you can't explain.

[edit on 5-8-2005 by Yarcofin]



posted on Aug, 5 2005 @ 09:27 PM
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You're right, gormly...

But using your own logic, just because something isn't explainable, doesn't necessarily mean it isn't paranormal, either (in all fairness).

It simply means that there really isn't enough evidence to support either notion to any degree of actuality.

Sometimes the world isn't black and white - and it's those shades of grey which make it ambiguous at best to those of us who generally do require hard evidence before we'll believe in something.

Many posters are going to respond with posts about faith, and their own personal anecdotes attesting to their abilities and/or experiences; to them, that's all the proof they'll ever need. In all likelihood, most won't feel the need to quantify it to anyone else at all. You're asking for hard scientific evidence when none exists, and none is likely to be forthcoming any time soon; this doesn't negate the experiences of someone else, but really only fails in the context of offering quantifiable results.

As for my own point of view - I've never, ever seen or been shown any valid evidence of anything of a supernatural/paranormal nature.

But I've experienced things I can't explain.

Edit: Yarcofin, you might be amazed at what your brain can do. NDEs are something I do believe are absolutely explained away by science; in a similar way, your brain can fool you into thinking and feeling some very strange things (in terms of AP, OBEs etc). You can psyche yourself into (and indeed, out of!) many moods, physiological changes and downright weird states of being - and sometimes you'll have absolutely no idea why this happens.



[edit on 5-8-2005 by Tinkleflower]



posted on Aug, 5 2005 @ 09:38 PM
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. Wow that's ironic because it is one of the things I think are the most possible. NDEs, yes I think are very easy to explain away with lack of oxygen. But people who can have OOBE at will by laying relaxed and comfortable and not hindered in any way I do not think can be explained away like that. I have been trying to have an OOBE for so, so long, and I haven't had one yet. If it was all about will and trying to convince yourself that it is real, I would already be there by now. Like I said, I didn't come here to argue though. I have noted your belief and I accept it, although I do not agree =).

Would you mind sharing some of the things that you believe in Tinkleflower? Just seeing if we have any common ground, rather than tearing away at each other's differences.

EDIT: I'm going to bed for tonight. Long day ahead tomorrow. I'll catch up when I get home tomorrow night though.

[edit on 5-8-2005 by Yarcofin]



posted on Aug, 5 2005 @ 11:06 PM
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I don't get it.. I really don't.

You all seem level headed and reasonable and this is so far a great conversation.
(I know I am not a great writer and sometimes I do not express ideas and thoughts well, so thanks for bearing with me)

My problem is that the prevailing thought is that there should be some proof on my side of things that there is no paranormal.
Or that somehow, the benefit of the doubt should be given until we know all the facts.

That to me, is unbelievable.

It's gullible and it is what makes the frauds so successful.

You can't prove it wrong so therefore it might be true.
That is terrible logic.

That's like asking me to prove GOD doesn't exist.
I can't, just like you cannot prove GOD does exist.

Except the burden of proof isn't on my side of things, it's on the believers.

What if I were to tell you that for the last 14 years of my life I have been in contact with the real God..? The real God is a Cat and he lives with me. he tells me all sorts of things through our special mind connection.
My God makes things rattle and hum, he changes the TV channel with thought.
he has explained to me the ways of the world and proclaimed I cannot speak one wit of it to anyone. Once this Cats body dies my God will transfer in to the next Cat I buy at the store. (he likes to meow)
My God is true.

How could you disprove that?
This is my essential point.

How about if I told you the other day I had a connection with my wife, we knew what each other was thinking.
How about the toothpick I twirled with just a thought.
yep, that happened to me.

How would you have proof either way?
Why wouldn't you need the proof?

I would venture to guess that fully 90% of the posts on this board about "powers" be it empathic, tele-whatever, regression, or other "mind" powers are:

1. Visions of Grandure (and ego stroking, The need to feel superior in some way)
2. Substance incited
3. Delusional
4. Mental instabilities

and the other 10% are totally real, but caused by natural situations.
Example:
The "empath" that is able to read faces and body language (easy) and determine moods and is so emotional the he seems to mimic.. this is not paranormal, it's deductive thought and chemical reaction.

There's a guy on here who claims that he sometimes has to leave the "connection" I because it s so much to handle. "I feel what they feel' he says.

Maybe he is correct, but it isn't a power or an evolution of the mind, he isn't "special". he is different. He could have what I described above, or he could as easily be mentally or chemically unbalanced.
Or worse, he is lying for his own ego.



Sure, telekenisis might someday exists and so might telepathy.
The mind is a marvel of things and capable of much more I believe.
However, none of it has ever been PROVEN. Not one single shred of real documented evidence is available.

Psychics are WORSE, as there should be an awful lot to cooborate no? They make predictions and tell futures all the time.
Why can't one of them go before a scientific board and put an end to the skepticism?

It is nice to hear accounts of the strange and paranormal.
Or tales of mind abilities beyond the normal.
But until any of it is proven, it is just not real.


I have heard of lot of
"I am skeptical but I have seen so much in my life that I cannot explain..."
Type statements. but I ask you, not for the sake of this converstaion or this board.. how many of those "things" could not be explained logically?
How many do you choose to leave open to debate, o "possibility"?


I REALLY WANT TO FIND EVIDENCE OF THE PARANORMAL.

I really do, it is a romantic and exciting notion that there could be more out there, something I could unlock myself.. something that gives pure meaning to llife.

If there were Ghosts, that would mean we don't just rot in a casket.
if there were telekenisis or telepathy that would me we all could have those abilities.
If someone could read the future, that would mean it is fixed and with purpose.

If, If, If....

If I show you two closed fists and I tell you there is a blue ball in one.
I ask you to choose one hand, you choose the left.
I say you were wrong but don't show you.
How do you know I am telling the truth?
Wouldn't you ask to see both hands? Or at least one?

That's what I ask for, just a little proof and NO hearsay.



posted on Aug, 5 2005 @ 11:08 PM
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Like others have said here before, gormly has given only opinion here. I would like to know if you have ever done serious research on the paranormal. Have you tried to have OOBE's for example???

I have had seven of them untill now. So I have proven for myself, along with what thousands or millions have done before, that at least one aspect of the paranormal is real.



posted on Aug, 6 2005 @ 12:16 AM
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I think I can get ahold of real proof of a miracle. The hospital that took the x-rays has since shut down, but they are required by law to keep access to those things somewhere, so.....

My disabled daughter (who died earlier this year) had pneumonia twice when she was one to two years old. She was hospitalized both times, and we signed a DNR on her the second time she had it because her pediatrician said that if she did stop breathing on her own, and they put her on a machine, that she would never be able to breathe on her own after that...always be hooked up to a machine to breathe. She was seriously sick with pneumonia, but pulled through.

She had, at those times, a church praying for her, friends, family, etc.

A couple of years later (not exactly sure how much later...can't remember), she was wheezing one night. Fearing that it could turn into pneumonia, my husband took her to her doctor, at the clinic, the next day (I had to stay home with our other daughter). The doctor sent her for x-rays. My husband took her across the street, to the hospital. They x-rayed her and gave the x-rays to my husband to take back across the street with him, to the doctor.

The doctor (a very prominent, older pediatrician) looked at the x-rays and said that they must have given him the wrong x-rays, because these x-rays had no evidence of scartissue, damage and anything wrong with the lungs, where there should have been scartissue from the two bouts of pneumonia. The doctor sent my husband back across the street to the hospital. He told my husband to tell the technicians to give him the correct x-rays, or do another set of x-rays.

Husband went back over to hospital, they said they had given the correct set of x-rays to him, but, to satisfy the doctor, they took another set. My husband took those back to the doctor. The doctor, in my husband's opinion, was incredulous, shocked, whatever, to find that this new set of x-rays showed a clear set of lungs, just as the first set had.

There is more to my daughter, Kayla's, life that I've felt was out of the ordinary; however, I've typed a long enough post for now. This event was true...it happened. She nearly died from pneumonia, but later had no evidence of that on her lungs. Did her lungs heal themselves of the scar tissue that was there when x-rays were taken in the hospital when she had the pneumonias? I don't know. I, personally, think it was God who healed my baby...she had more things to do, and didn't need the complication that weak lungs would have brought with them.



posted on Aug, 6 2005 @ 06:47 AM
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Originally posted by TheBandit795
Like others have said here before, gormly has given only opinion here. I would like to know if you have ever done serious research on the paranormal. Have you tried to have OOBE's for example???

I have had seven of them untill now. So I have proven for myself, along with what thousands or millions have done before, that at least one aspect of the paranormal is real.


Here's the problem.

We could provide clinical evidence that brainwaves may change substantially during alleged OOBE activity, thus suggesting that it's really all in your head, and it's simply tapping into a very active part of your brain. We could also provide reports of "remote viewing" that are incorrect and inaccurate - in other words, the subject got too many things wrong. And on the other side of it, we could provide anecdotes of people who "see" remotely, describe things in other rooms, etc etc, even witnessing events that the patient claims never to have seen in real life.

The problem is, to believers, that first piece of evidence can be explained away by "Oh - well that's because during an OOBE your brainwaves DO change", and the inaccurate room descriptions might be down to confusion or the astral plane being a little fuzzy or altered. And to the nonbelievers, that second piece of evidence is easily explained by rationale such as "It's easy to say the room has a couch..most living rooms would have a couch", or "That's suggesting the patient might have even been in the room before and is either now lying, or has flawed memories".

See where I'm going with this?

To answer your question, Bandit...let me share a bit of history


For the better part of 20 years, I've studied theology. At least 13 of those years were directly involved in study of occult matters and the paranormal - I was actually Wiccan (coven-trained, to boot) for seven of those years, and practiced a generic form of Goddess-worship for a couple of years after that.

I've encountered many strange things; from my own experiences with AP and OOBEs to witnessing others (sometimes in a controlled setting) experience some odd little things from time to time. Ever had a particularly realistic nightmare? A very vivid and realistic pleasurable dream? Yup, me too. Our brain chemistry can do some wild things.

But still, even though I was very open (in many ways, more open than many of the posters here) to the idea of OOBEs for example, and even though I'd experienced what some would perhaps call AP, for me the proof just simply wasn't there. Sure, there were times where I felt myself float out of my body, and even journeying further than that. What is this proof of? Nothing, really, other than having a very active imagination, even during periods of intense relaxation (if that term isn't a complete paradox, which I think it might be).

There's so much about the brain that we can't pin down - but alas, I have to go with Ockham's Razor for the most part. The likelihood - certainly in my experience, and to the best of my knowledge - is simply brain chemistry at work.

In short, Bandit, to say you've had seven experiences is really only an indication that you believe that you've had seven OOBE experiences. It's not really proof at all of anything else.

And that doesn't make the experience itself any less real; that's not what's being said here. It just indicates (to me, at least) that you truly believe what happened to you fits AP or OOBE more than brain chemistry...and there's nothing wrong with that. I just believe that it's brain chemistry at work



posted on Aug, 6 2005 @ 10:15 AM
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True belief in the paranormal is subjective by its very nature. An individual who has faith in their perceptions experiences seemingly inexplicable phenomena, or circumstances beyond coincidence. The healthy mind searches for an explanation based on logical conclusions. Many situations and occurrences defy logical or rational explanation. At that point, you must chalk such things up to flukes of nature or random chance. That's ok.

Unless and until you have experiences of your own that defy your belief systems and force you to expand the envelope of your cognition, you will be perfectly content to write off paranormal phenomena as fake make-believe ego strokes. That's ok, too.

As I've posted before, I am very skeptical myself of anything that doesn't fit neatly into x,y,z, and t. Time, and my own real experiences with the psychic, meta-physical, and astral planes has sometimes proven otherwise to me. I'm not trying to convince you or others of anything. I encourage you to believe as you see fit, and hold things to a high standard of proof. That way, if you ever do experience something inexplicable yourself, you will be rigorous in your analysis and re-assured with your conclusions.

I suggest, if you haven't already, you look into electro-magnetics, and realize that our perceptions are made up entirely of waveforms of EMR along EMFs. Special relativity and unified field theory allow for lots of extra-planar activity.





posted on Aug, 6 2005 @ 05:19 PM
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Part of me wants to take the original post and address it point by point, but I will leave that to someone with more time than I have at this moment.
I will respond to one, you mention there are no recorded cases of psychics ever solving any crimes without advanced knowledge. This is wrong, quite wrong. Normally the police give almost no information to a psychic because they do not believe any more than you do. There have indeed been many cases where the police credit a psychic with putting them on the trail. This is documented but you have to actually look.

That is the flaw in your whole rant, you have not done real research but instead comment on superstitions and popular culture. If you do take a real look, with all your disbelief, you will find that most of what you currently think is simply incorrect.

Another problem with what you say is that you do not seem to understand what paranormal really means. As someone has already said these things are simply on the edge of our understanding and really are no different than any other ability.

If you can find it I suggest you read 'Hidden Files: Law Enforcement's True Case Stories Of The Unexplained and Paranormal' by Sue Kovach. Every story comes from police officers and cover a range of topics from UFOs to psychic events.

Something else to consider. You are probably not old enough to have heard a Doctor say 'That is metaphysical nonsense' when told that the Stress someone is experiencing is the cause of their illness, but I am. For Centuries it was understood in metaphysics that excessive Stress, how one feels about life, could make one sick. Today it is officially accepted that Stress is one of the major contributors, and yes causes, of almost every ill known to man. What was paranormal is now accepted fact.

Try some actual research and you will learn there is a lot more to this subject than you ever imagined.


A.T
(-)



posted on Aug, 6 2005 @ 05:42 PM
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OH FINALLY, someone has also realized the majority of the things posted here are complete baloney.

The only thing these people eer have to back up there claims is "my word" which is suppose to be good enough, since you know, who lies on the internet, honestly? Also, when more people claim the same thing, that suddenly validates it also, such as OOBEs and other tihngs so many people claim to experience that it just HAS to be real.

These people also bring up the craziest proof to try and validate there outragous claims, from photos, to videos, to a handful of scientists and experts. Of course, that also must be proof too, even though we have no valid, controlled, and scientifitcally accepted tests of anything, but watch out, the folks who dont believe it are blocking that!

Caution: The people who believe in this nonsense will use the philosophical trump card that is perception to completely invalidate our claims about the physical world and the laws of nature and everything else, so that virtually anything is possible. Gotta love that one. Of course, when you stay in reality, they have a real hard time arguing within the physical laws though.

To be honest, 99.9% of this forum just screams baloney. I cant help but pick a very small topics that are actually well done and are exploring a possible anomoly in science. They always go off into conspiracies and aliens and ghosts and magic and just twist science to their likings.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, these people use these things as mental supports and cannot and will not accept their invalid nature even in the face of near complete proof against them. Just like some people are steeped in religion or anything, you cannot convince them otherwise, but you can prove to the rest of the public their error.

And that is exactly what I think gormly is trying to do, to prove to the rest of the people here that these fanatics cannot back their claims and thus do not deserve your time.

Let the flaming begin!




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