Was Jesus a Christian? Is being a Jew a matter of race or religion?

This is a carry over from another thread.

The Question is can you be a Jew and a Christian? Was Jesus a Jew or a Christian?

To me being Jewish is a Religion, the original Jews were middle eastern and my Grandmother was a Jew. (yes all you little Neo-Nazis caught me, I AM a jew.....LOL) She was a Blond haired Blue-Eyed German as was her Brothers. All are now in the USA and most are now Christians. How could they be considered Jews?


As for Jesus, it was my understanding he wasn't worshiped till AFTER he rose from the grave, so he couldn't be considered a Christian himself could he?

[edit on 5-8-2005 by Amuk]

anyone who believes jesus was the christ is a christian, including jesus if he believed he was, which he probably didn't, 3-1 against according to the passion accounts

Originally posted by AmukWas Jesus a Jew or a Christian?

According to my dictionary a Christian is "someone who believes in and follows the teachings of Jesus Christ". So I think it's fairly safe to say that Jesus was a Christian, as were his disciples etc. .

It also describes a Jew as "a member of a race of people whose traditional religion is Judaism", so it's possible to be a Jew and a Christian. Or any other religion they want.

[edit on 5-8-2005 by legion]

OK then if Jews are a race how do you explain Black Jews, Blond Jews, White Jews, Semitic Jews etc.

All are not of the same race.

I can "become" a Jew I can not "become" a Oriental.

[edit on 5-8-2005 by Amuk]

Originally posted by Amuk
OK then if Jews are a race how do you explain Black Jews, Blond Jews, White Jews, Semitic Jews etc.

All are not of the same race.

I can "become" a Jew I can not "become" a Oriental.

[edit on 5-8-2005 by Amuk]

You can become a Jew (follower of the jewish religion) but you cannot become a Jew (descendant of the original race of followers of judaism).

Two separate things.

So which one is it that controls the world and shape shifts into Reptiles? The religion or the race?

If Jesus was a Jew was he also a member of the NWO?

I just dont see how it can be both ways. Take my Grandmother for example, they were Germans which now dont even pratice the Jewish religion, so how could we be Jewish?

Originally posted by Amuk
So which one is it that controls the world and shape shifts into Reptiles? The religion or the race?

If Jesus was a Jew was he also a member of the NWO?

I just dont see how it can be both ways. Take my Grandmother for example, they were Germans which now dont even pratice the Jewish religion, so how could we be Jewish?

I guess she converted to Judaism. You can convert to the religion but you still wont be a descendant of the original tribe.


Think of it this way. 3000 years ago there was a tribe of people who followed a religion. Fast forward 3000 years, The descendants of that tribe are Jews( the race) the converts to that religion (Judaism) are also Jewish.

Does that make sense? Perhaps if we changed words a little bit it might beceme easier to understand. Lets substitute green for the race of people and purple for the religion they follow.

3000 years ago there was a tribe of people ( the greens) who followed the religion of purple. 3000 years later the descendants of that tribe are still Green,Although not all of these people of the green race still follow the purple religion they are still considered green. There are also people who converted to that particular religion and are purple followers, although they are not green descendants they are still purple.

To answer your question, I think the Greens are thought to control the world, but the Purples benefit from that.

[edit on 5/8/05 by Skibum]

Jesus was a Jew. He in Judaism but also substituted some of his own teachings. The creator of Christianity was Paul. A Christian is a person that follows the religion that Paul created based on the teachings of Jesus and the belief that Jesus was either the son of God, God Himself, etc...



P.S. if Jesus were from a later time he and his followers would have probably created another branch of Judaism.

Christianity was named for Christ. I suppose you could say he was the founder. My understanding is that Jewish is both a race and religion. The bible states Jesus was born a Jew thus that was his race/ethnic origin.

Originally posted by Skibum
There are also people who converted to that particular religion and are purple followers, although they are not green descendants they are still purple.

But then, according to the if your mother is a Jew bloodline stuff, you can be a Jew and have not descended from Jews OR practice their religion?

Again take my Grandmother for example. She was born a Jew as were her parents and theirs, etc. BUT it is obvious she was not Middle eastern nor were any members of her family. Her Children and etc, practice Christianity, BUT had a "Jewish" mother.

Would they be Jews?

Where is my check from the NWO?

Originally posted by eslag90
Jesus was a Jew. The creator of Christianity was Paul. A Christian is a person that follows the religion that Paul created

That was my understanding too.

Under this deffenition Jesus could not have been Christian.

Originally posted by Amuk

Originally posted by Skibum
There are also people who converted to that particular religion and are purple followers, although they are not green descendants they are still purple.

But then, according to the if your mother is a Jew bloodline stuff, you can be a Jew and have not descended from Jews OR practice their religion?

I suppose if my mother was of the Jewish bloodline (race) I would be an ethnic Jew as well. Just like if my mother were Irish, I would be Irish as well

Again take my Grandmother for example. She was born a Jew as were her parents and theirs, etc. BUT it is obvious she was not Middle eastern nor were any members of her family. Her Children and etc, practice Christianity, BUT had a "Jewish" mother.

Would they be Jews?

I guess it depends. They don't follow Judaism, so they are not of the jewish religion, they are Christians.

I suppose the real question would be wheter or not their lineage can be traced back to the original tribe. It would stand to reason that they could be and not "look middle eastern" especially if they lived in another area and intermixed with other ethnicities.

Originally posted by Skibum
I suppose the real question would be wheter or not their lineage can be traced back to the original tribe.

That is my point. As was brought up on another thread you cant have it both ways or the term "Jew" loses all meaning.

To use the Irish example you used.

Would you be Irish if your Irish mothers Father was from Spain?

Irish is not a "race" either, any more than a "Jew" is a race. Irish is a "Nationality". Its hard to have a nationality when you haven't had a nation in 2000 years. Do you know where YOUR ancestors were at 2000 years ago? Using this logic you could say "My Family lived in Scotland for 1500 years but we are REALY Koreans.....LOL"



[edit on 5-8-2005 by Amuk]

There are no 'races', so one can't be a member of the jewish race.

The problem here is that Jew has become mixed with the idea of a race, whereas christian and muslim haven't. The jewish religion was a national religion, they had a single national temple, in jerusalem, and their entire 'people' were the elect of god, so this kept the idea that they have an identity alive. That identity became mixed with 'ethnicty', I'd think, because when the romans dispersed the jews into europe, they remianed so seperate for so long, that everyone else just thought that they were a tribe and a race. Normally the name of a tribe is different from the religion.

The issue with a jewish race would be similar to if instead of islam, the religion was called 'Arabism' or something like that. We'd have Arab Arabists, and non-arab Arabists, and they'd probably argue over who is more Arabist!

Actually, Jesus was not Christian.

The religion was founded based on him being the messiah, which was based on him being resurrected from the dead wasn't it. Wasn't that the final proof of his being the son of God? Dying for the sins of humanity and being resurrected?

If that is the case, which from what I recall it is, then Christianity did not exist until after the crucifixion and resurrection, thereby making it impossible for Jesus to be a Christian.

He was born Jewish and died Jewish. His followers established the Christian religion.

As for who is a Jew, it's a very unique situation.

It is a religion, not a race. A race indicates similar looks, genetic similarities, and that sort of thing doesn't it. There really isn't much of that in Judaism. There are Ethiopian Jews, who are black, and Jews coming from different areas of Europe, who look rather different from Jews that are from the middle east. They look nothing alike and could not be classified as a single race. There are even a small amount of Chinese Jews comprising a congregation in Shanghai.

The part that confuses everyone is succession. If you're Jewish, are you kids Jewish. The answer is if the mother is Jewish, the children are Jewish. Being Jewish has always gone through the mother, and which of the twelve tribes they belong to goes through the father.

Yeah I know... just a bit complex!

EDIT: To throw another thing into the equation... Judaism does accept converts and in the Old Testament God states clearly that converts should be considered equal to those born Jewish.

So once someone converts, be they black, white, hispanic, chinese, whatever, they're fully Jewish like anyone else.

[edit on 8-5-2005 by Djarums]

Originally posted by Amuk
This is a carry over from another thread.

The Question is can you be a Jew and a Christian? Was Jesus a Jew or a Christian?

To me being Jewish is a Religion, the original Jews were middle eastern and my Grandmother was a Jew. (yes all you little Neo-Nazis caught me, I AM a jew.....LOL) She was a Blond haired Blue-Eyed German as was her Brothers. All are now in the USA and most are now Christians. How could they be considered Jews?


As for Jesus, it was my understanding he wasn't worshiped till AFTER he rose from the grave, so he couldn't be considered a Christian himself could he?

[edit on 5-8-2005 by Amuk]

First, I must thank you (Amuk) for moving the thread from the other forum to its rightful home

I would like to explain who Jesus is from a Jewish perspective:

Jesus was raised as an orthodox Jew (circumcised on 8th day, Luke 2:21) Jesus's real name was Yeshua (there is no "J" in Hebrew). Second most common name being Joseph (Jesus's father); Mary (most common name among women) was Jesus's mother. Both parents were Jews/Hebrews. Jesus had five brothers: James (Ya'qov), Simon (Shim'on), Judah (Yehudah), Joses (Yosef), Thomas (Toma'), and two sisters: Rachel (Rakhel) and Lea (Le'ah).

Jesus was raised in Jewish law (Luke 2:22, Jesus was presented to the Lord in the Jerusalem Temple). Jesus education: at age 5, ready for the written Torah; at age 10, study oral Torah; at age 20, pursue a vocation; at age 30, enter one's full vigor (Mishnah, Avot, 5:21). Furthermore, lessons began with the Book of Leviticus at age 5/6; higher education at 15 where one would embark on theological discussion with learned teachers or Rabbis (Mishnah, Aboth 5:21). Jesus had worn the tsitsith or tassel as in Numbers 15:37-41, Matthew 9:20, 14:36, and Luke 8:44), or he may have worn the tephillin or phylacteries as in Deuteronomy 6:8 (small boxes bound to the arm and head containing scriptual verses; Jesus criticised the phylacteries as exhibitionism (Matthew 23:5), a practice later condemned by Rabbis. Jesus did celebrate Passover (Pesach) as in Luke 2:41-43, a tradition Jesus continued (John 12:12, Mark 14:12-26). Jesus also kept Tabernacles (Sukkoth, booths) as in John 7:1-39. Jesus attended the synagogue every Sabbath (Luke 4:16), and tithing, fasting and almsgiving. Though Jesus did denounce these practices as excessive. Jesus said grace or a blessing as a Jew as in Deuteronomy 8:10, Matthew 6:41, 26:26, Luke 24:30 (the traditional blessing being "Barukh attah 'Adonai 'elohenu Melekh ha-dam ha-motsi lechem meen ha-arets' (Blessed are You, our Lord God, King of the Ages/Universe, who brings forth bread from the earth). Jesus was not ashamed to call himself a Jew as in John 4:22.

Jesus ministry lasted about 3 years. As his teachings and his influence on the Jewish people were perceived as threatening by the Jewish Priests (Sanhedrin). Eventually, Jewish leaders pressured the Romans, who occupied the region, to condemn Jesus to death (Jewish law for blasphemy was death).

The Pharisees composed the majority of the Sanhedrin. It was not blasphemous to declare oneself a Messiah or Son of God; blasphemy could only be applied to anyone who claimed to be God Almighty (John 5:18-19), Jesus declared himself as the Messiah, and his desire to ascend to the throne of David, an act of sedition against Rome.

Sanhedrin judged accused lawbreakers but could not intiate arrests. It required a minimum of two witnesses to convict a suspect; there were no attorneys. Instead, the accusing witnesses stated the offense in the presence of the accused and the accused could call witnesses on his own behalf; the court questioned the accused, the accusers and defense witness. It was the final authority in Jewish law, and any scholar who went against its deicisions was put to death as a rebellious elder (zaken mamre). Sanhedrin was led by a president called the nasi, a vice president called the av bet din, and 69 other sages who sat in a semicircle facing the leaders; the Sanhedrin dealt with religious and ritualistic temple matters, criminal matters pertaining to the secular court, proceedings in connection with the discovery of a corpse, trials of adulterous wives, tithes, preparation of Torah Scrolls for the king and Temple, drawing up the calender, solving the difficulties relating to ritual law.

Jesus was brought before the Sanhedrin, presided over by the high priest Joseph Caiaphas (Mishnah 7.4, capital punishment for a blasphemer; Mark 14:64 regarded a blasphemer to be condemned to death).

Sanhedrin condemned Jesus for he was claiming that God was "His own father, amking Himself equal with God" John 5:17-19 (or John 5-47); he broke the sabbath and claiming God was his own father equals blasphemy.

Jesus was born to Jewish parents, he was raised a religious Jew, and he died as a (in his eyes) a religious Jew.

My own Rabbi here in Tulsa, Rabbi Weg understands my position with being an atheist, after much discussion, he always invites me to his synagogue, he sends me newsletters about upcoming holidays, and I am welcome to discuss my being a Jewish atheist with him at any time. Even he said, that, even though I am an atheist, I am still Jewish (he said, as long as your mother is Jewish). My mother was Jewish, my father was Jewish, and my grandparents on both sides of the family were orthodox Jews. (see my thread in the New World Order under the caption: As A Jew, Allow Me To Tell It Like It Is)

If i decided to convert to Catholicism, I would still be a Jew; the priest would introduce me as a new convert to the Catholic Church even though he is Jewish by birthright (I just wanted to use this as an example)...which leads me into the next part:

Even though by belief and culture I consider myself an atheist Jew, I have on my birth certificate (as like Jesus above), on the 8th day, I was circumcised, and blessed by a Rabbi. If I did support the State of Israel, I could show my birth certificate (only the birth certificate is required) to the Israeli authorities, and even though I am an atheist, with that one piece of paper, I would become automatically an Israeli-Jew (atheist). I am a Jew by birthright, all else is a choice I made many years after my birth. I was born a Jew, not by choice; I chose being an atheist, yet my birthright remains the same.

Also, having been born in America, that makes me an American-Jew (or American-Hebrew). If I were in Russia (like my father's father and mother were during the pogroms at the turn of the 20th century), I would be called a Russian-Jew (and in Russia, if I were born there, when I was born in America in 1958), being a Russian-Jew and atheist would have been absolutely no problem But I am an American-Jew (born in America, birthright is Jewish). If I were in Israel (or like I say, Israhel*) I would be an Israeli-Jew born in America who prefers not to practice the Jewish faith (Judaism) or live as an atheist amongst other Jews (believe me-you, if the zionist bs is stripped away, and all the religious teachings and practices are put into perspective, I'd get along with another Jew in Israel).

I am here writing this reply because my family was able to survive persecution over centuries. The Jewish Homeland as a refuge for Jews who may be or are being persecuted is all but smoke and mirrors. Israel has turned into a military-economic geopolitical state that serves the interests of Europe and America. Israel is not for the Jews, as a refuge. The Orthodox Jews in Israel condemn the State (they've lived there since Abraham). Zionism contradicts Judaism. The entire idea for a Jewish Homeland has and is being ransacked for a New World Order that is intent on getting the whole world under their control, owning each and everyone one of us, regrdaless of who starves, dies, and/or is persecuted. If I were a religious Jew I would not have supported Israel for it'd be a disgrace as a Jew who must humble himself and wait for the coming of the Moshiach (Messiah).

I spit in Sharon's face.


(if there are any typos, just ignore them, thanks)

Not many realize how the word 'christian' originated. It started in the days when the world spoke Greek, right after Jesus' life and death, and resurrection.
In the Greek, to say 'ianos' at the end of a word means 'follower of' or 'belonging to.' And there were two divisions of what the world then called Jews (descendants of the original children of Israel liberated from Egypt) --those who recognized and followed Messiah and those who denied He was God's annointed Angel of the Covenant. In those days there were Jews (who worshipped the Living God) and gentiles (essentially pagans, or heathens, as some say, who worshipped lifeless gods personified in idols and such).

So the gentiles--in order to differentiate between those Jews who believed Jesus was sent of God and was Messiah, and those who felt He was just another in a long line of Messiah-wanna-bes--started calling the believers 'Christianios' which meant, simply in pure terms, 'followers of the annointed' or 'those who belong to the annointed.'

In those days, being called Christianos by the gentiles meant surely persecution and death by stoning or a bad bad beating, at the hands of the 'non christianios' Jews. Then, after 'Nero fiddled while Rome burned' arson--of which the blame was diverted to the Christianios by Nero--added the Romans to the list of persecutors.

Romans and Jews killing Christianios
Romans killing Jews and Christianios
Christianios killing no one. (back then--things have changed)

And yet the number of 'christianios' continued to increase. So much so that, when Cosntantine became emporer of the Roman Empire, he saw the need for a national religion to aid in political control of a vast empire, and since 'Christianity' was the most popular, so to speak, he adopted it.

And that's when what we currently know as 'christianity' really began.

Christ didn't come here to start any religion--He came to reveal truth. In fact, one thing He did do was render the only truly sanctioned religion, Judaism, null and void (for any practical purpose), with His life and death. And christianity, supposedly based on the resurrection, is disqualified by the same, because the truth of the resurrection is misused and abused in the christian institution of both flavors.

"And the mighty hand of Pete slays the ignorants." Pete:1.7

Jew·ish:
Of or relating to the Jews or their culture or religion. See Usage Note at Jew
dictionary.reference.com...

Jew:
An adherent of Judaism as a religion or culture.
A member of the widely dispersed people originally descended from the ancient Hebrews and sharing an ethnic heritage based on Judaism.
A native or inhabitant of the ancient kingdom of Judah.
dictionary.reference.com...

It's both a Religion and a Race of people.

What type of Jew was Jesus? a sadducee, pharisee or essene???

So far my basic under-standing of the issue is.

Jew's came from Ethopia.
Through Egypt (Slave period).
Up to Israel/North of Egypt.
First Temple Region around there.
--

This is where it gets confusing, they had so many internal wars with the other tribes that nobody really knows. The Roman's gave no written record of how the "Jews" looked that I have ever been able to find.

Black, White, Mixed Race, Arabic...who knows?

In likely hood, I would place him has a darker skinned Arab and thus part of the Beta Israel tribe.

In fact, this tribe had no contact till the 1860's and practices a form of very early Judaism.

Also the "Book of Enoch" was found written in ethopian and was very popular in the Early church...