USS Jimmy Carter (the "F/A-22" of submarines)

i didnt know titanium is used for the the Seawolf class subs. i thought its just HY steel like the 80 or 100. i heard they were thinking about using the HY 130 steel for the Seawolf just prior to its construction but it was too expensive and hard to use.

Originally posted by deltaboy
i didnt know titanium is used for the the Seawolf class subs. i thought its just HY steel like the 80 or 100. i heard they were thinking about using the HY 130 steel for the Seawolf just prior to its construction but it was too expensive and hard to use.

Its HY100 not titianum

Construction of the submarine has relied on a new welding material to join the steel into plates, hull subsections and large cylindrical sections. The Seawolf is the first American attack submarine to use a hull made entirely of high-pressure HY-100 steel -- previous sumarines used HY80 steel. HY-100 steel was first used in submarines in the early 1960s in the Navy's deep-diving SEA CLIFF and TURTLE,, which were capable of reaching depths in excess of 10,000 feet. More recently, the Moray, an advanced conventional submarine designed by the Dutch shipyard R.D.M. (Rotterdamsche Droogdok Maatschappij B.V), incorporated HY-100 steel to achieve an operational diving depth of 300 meters, and an incidental diving depth of 360 meters.
www.globalsecurity.org...

Originally posted by orangetom1999
As to hardness..it is noticalby harder than HSS HTS or mild steels. One can tell when Drilling. You really have to keep the coolant coming or you will be often changing drill bits.

Cool I did not know that. That among other things is why the Seawolf is so expensive. it kind of fixed the problems that Rickover cause with the 688's

good question Fred. You posted:

"Cool I did not know that. That among other things is why the Seawolf is so expensive. it kind of fixed the problems that Rickover cause with the 688's "

I can tell you that the 688 program was not inexpensive by a long shot. From the begining to the end they were doing improvements into the 688I or Improved 688 boats.

The Sea Wolf was integrating newer and coming on line technologies into a hull designed for more and faster improvements as time went by ..this done by new construction techniques. They were designed from the outset to make easier access and modifications as technologies came on line..something not done with previous designs from the 688s back.
Also she incorporated a new reactor design from earlier boats. Most people have no idea how much moneys are spent in the reactor areas of these boats..surface ships too..huge amounts. New and just coming on line sonars...electronics ...periscopes..et al...all costing money. Also ..this boat has eight torpedo tubes...not just four. A huge increase in costs...not just for the torpedo tubes but the storage room internally for such a huge load out. Add in the vertical launch system..standard on boats today...look at the costs.
Plus additional costs for HY100 steel ..special welding proceedures..wow!!!
To me she is a bit overdesigned but I think the Navy wanted to know how far they could take theses designs and construction techniques and still build in the ability to make changes/modifications down the line with some ease in construction. This seems to represent a turning point , marker,a type of milestone in design and construction techniques.
It is another turning point to keep costs down ..in a time of inflationary/depreciating currencys. This one I dont think the "Experts " will be able to solve. No matter how hard they work at it. This too is reflected in the overall costs.
When I see these politicians balking at the costs of these new designs like the Virginia class submarines or the CVN 21 carriers...I now think that this is the projection of how much the cost will be to make a profit over the length of time the project takes to produce against the depreciating/inflationary value of the currency. Not a view often posed by politicians or those in education or the media who are supposed to be looking out for you !!
These shipyards are not in it to take a loss..unlike Navy Yards. If the Navy Yards were any good at it they would be building these boats and ships from the bottom up..instead of maintnence work and modifications and turn a profit to boot.


Thanks,
Orangetom

hey orangetom, i was wondering if its possible to make subs with ceramic hulls like based on the book by Joe Buff where the U.S.S. Challenger in 2011 can dive deep as much as 16000 ft.

i know that the Deep diving subs like the Turtle and Alvin use HY 100 or so. the only difference was that they were thicker and were spherical. i wonder if future subs be using that technique.

Originally posted by orangetom1999
The Sea Wolf was integrating newer and coming on line technologies into a hull designed for more and faster improvements as time went by ..this done by new construction techniques. They were designed from the outset to make easier access and modifications as technologies came on line..something not done with previous designs from the 688s back.

The Seawolf's are designed to be more flexible as well aren't they?

The Navy is having to rethink it's role to meet the requirements of the war on terror. That will have an impact on the Sea Wolf program. They still like the ability to park a floating airbase any where in the world, but it's harder to justify something designed to go after boomers and large capital ships when there aren't that many boomers left in the world and terrorists use little wooden outboards.

Speaking of reactors, my expertise isn't with subs so hopefully this isn't a stupid question, how do you accelerate a nuke sub? A nuclear reactor doesn't seem like something you can suddenly throttle up.

Originally posted by deltaboy
hey orangetom, i was wondering if its possible to make subs with ceramic hulls like based on the book by Joe Buff where the U.S.S. Challenger in 2011 can dive deep as much as 16000 ft.

i know that the Deep diving subs like the Turtle and Alvin use HY 100 or so. the only difference was that they were thicker and were spherical. i wonder if future subs be using that technique.

First thought is that I would think that would be really brittle. Every little bump would chip pieces off of it. Ductile materials like steel don't have that problem and so can withstand wear and tear a lot more. Maybe ceramic in a metal honeycomb or some crazy material like that might work. But that would get really complicated (ie. $$$). You can build stealth fighters with crazy materials like that because they have relatively small parts, but a whole hull the size of a Sea Wolf requires a different set of considerations.

Then again, nobody would tell me what anechoic tiles were made off.

Originally posted by Winchester Ranger T

He was unceremoniously booted out of office by a President who really did support the military, and made a better job of running the economy too.

And here was me thinking that Carter left the White House because the American voting public voted for someone else. How does this "booting" work?

Raegenomics were so good they weren't paid off until Clinton took hold of the economy.

Not to get completely off topic at all, but...Raegan supported the military so much he put the Marines in Beirut so they could...die in their hundreds to no purpose?

Again we're comparing men who served with men who...what?
Did Ronnie ever wear a uniform outside a film set? I'll admit I have no idea and that seems a little odd.

Originally posted by deltaboy
hey orangetom, i was wondering if its possible to make subs with ceramic hulls like based on the book by Joe Buff where the U.S.S. Challenger in 2011 can dive deep as much as 16000 ft.

Actually John Craven (the sonar whiz and chief scientist for the US Navy's Special Projects Office that helped with the NR-1, find the Palomares bomb, and the grave of the Scorpion (I think), the polaris) actually made a case in one of his books that Glass would be the ideal hull material for a DSRV.

polymath who is as comfortable talking about the Law of the Sea as he is the plumbing nightmares inherent when 200 men a day urinate in a submarine, Craven is hard to keep up with. His mind darts from why the Navy should make subs out of glass to the sad end of his long telephone friendship with the late Marlon Brando to the remarkable prodigiousness of his small experimental Hawaiian vineyard. "One week the plants have no leaves," he says, "the next they just go zing, zing, zing and are full of fruit!"
www.wired.com...

Originally posted by LemonAide

Speaking of reactors, my expertise isn't with subs so hopefully this isn't a stupid question, how do you accelerate a nuke sub? A nuclear reactor doesn't seem like something you can suddenly throttle up.

I'm no sub expert, but isn't the reactor used to make steam, and electrical power

Originally posted by LemonAide


Then again, nobody would tell me what anechoic tiles were made off.

I had never even heard of anechoic tiles until I read your post and did some searching

I read rickusn's post where he pasted a chapter out of a sub book at this link which seemed very informative. It didn't mention what they are made of, but I found this part just amazing

"TILES USE DAMPING LAYERS TO CONVERT SOUND TO HEAT
The current generation of acoustic treatment uses layers of material to specialize in both anechoic and damping roles. The latest Russian attack submarines of the Akula and Sierra classes use such a layered system, as do British navy submarines.
The inner tiles allow engineers to tailor sound defeating qualities. For example, if a piece of rotating machinery at a certain site produces a specific frequency, the inner tile can be designed to damp that specific sound, and turn the acoustic energy into heat. Such damping would reduce the capability of a hostile passive sonar to pick up the noise. If the passive sonar was a torpedo homing device, the acquisition range would be cut.

The outer layer is designed to act anechoically - to absorb active sonar signals - and can also be tailored to match the primary frequencies used by potentially hostile forces. Thickness is dependent on the specific frequencies of interest. This is often in the region of 30mm-50mm, but could run as thick as 100 mm.

Sources indicate the Russian tiles are approximately 2.8 X 3.0 feet and four-inches thick. Earlier Russian anechoic tiles were smaller in area and thinner. These sources indicate the tiles reduce the acoustic signature of an Akula or Sierra between 10 and 20 dB. This reduction, in the frequency range of an American AN/BQQ-5 sonar, causes a reduction in detection range of between 25% and 50%. The detection range shrinkage is not constant because it varies with the temperature and composition of the water in which the sound is traveling. British sources indicate the two-layer system, also in use with the British navy, is similarly tailored to counter Russian sonars and shows similar results.

The physical principles are well documented through research in a field called auxiliary mass damping. A paper presented at the 1988 London UDT conference by Ed Parker with Plessy Naval Systems Ltd., Templecombe, U.K., concerned how such tiles can be tuned to depress noise levels over a broad frequency range, including the lower frequencies where long-range passive sonars work.

The technique described in the paper closely matches the Russian system described by intelligence sources, including the two-tile approach.

Conventional mass damping turns vibration into heat. The vibrating mass is connected to a base plate with a spring and a viscous damper. "The maximum energy is dissipated when the relative damper displacement is a maximum and this occurs at the damped resonant frequency of the mass on the spring. The bandwidth over which energy can be usefully dissipated is controlled by the viscous damping coefficient," said Parker.

By replacing the spring and viscous damper with a polyurethane rubber compound exhibiting both spring and damper characteristics, Parker creates what he calls auxiliary mass damping tiles. By varying the properties of the polyurethane rubber material, the acoustic damping characteristics can be tailored for specific frequencies.

"To obtain required stiffness properties in the elastic rubber layer, force-free areas are produced by introducing air pockets. This is done by either blowing the layer to produce a foam or molding the layer with inclusions. Manufacturing experience has shown that the air fraction can be controlled sufficiently to produce the required tile resonant frequency," he said.

To produce the topmost or mass layer, Parker's paper noted, "...it should be dense and appear mass like' when attached to the elastic layer. Steel, lead and lead oxide-loaded rubbers have been used for this purpose but the choice of material very much depends upon the specific application. Bonding the two layers to the structure to be damped is easily achieved with either epoxy or contact adhesive."

He said the tiles can be tuned to give less noise attenuation over a broad band of frequencies, or higher attenuation rates at more specific frequencies. This would allow designers to stipulate attenuation rates around particularly noisy submarine machinery such as coolant pumps in nuclear boats and internal combustion engines in conventional subs.

A brochure by Dowty Woodville Polymer of Britain indicates the company could tailor anechoic materials to a customer's specific requirements. "From the information supplied and using our in-house range of laboratory equipment with its extensive polymer database, it is possible to model and predict the type of material necessary to achieve the acoustic and anechoic performance and quality control at all stage of production," the brochure says.

The capabilities of Dowty's Woodville facilities included "the ability to predict the performance of anechoic materials for changes in temperature, frequency and pressure; the ability to measure and certify the performance of materials; the ability to advise on materials and their locations to reduce self-radiated noise; the ability to cary out our original research into acoustic and anechoic materials for passive/active sonar arrays; [and] the ability to design and manufacture acoustic materials to meet specific customer requirements."




The converting of vibrations into heat reminds me of the piezo electric ceramic and quartz technology used in skis and snowboards that turns vibrations or chatter into electricity and discharges by illuminating an LED light.

[edit on 11-8-2005 by warpboost]

[edit on 11-8-2005 by warpboost]

Originally posted by warpboost
I'm no sub expert, but isn't the reactor used to make steam, and electrical power

That's one idea.

I read rickusn's post where he pasted a chapter out of a sub book at this link which seemed very informative. It didn't mention what they are made of, but I found this part just amazing

Thanks it was very interesting.

Gentlemen:

Some great posts and questions here today. You guys are really on the ball.

Deltaboy ..your question about ceramic hulls is intresting. I live close to the NASA Langley Research Center here in Virginia. I know at one time they were doing research with private companys into Ceramic internal combustion engines which I thought was astonishing. The problem I see with Ceramic and Glass is is brittleness. The material can be made strong and hard but it is brittle if you get a crack in it. Also at those pressures a crack will start running rapidly as does a crack in a fiberglass body like in a Corvette Stingray. Steel like HY80 and HY100 will do the same and I have seen major hull repairs done because of this very problem. Very difficult and it takes a while to repair it correctly to specification. However as one poster already stated correctly ..This type of steel has some elasticity to it and is capable of some springing back. Unlike titanium or Ceramic, or Glass.
I believe that Ceramic or Glass will take alot of work before it will become suitable for this application. Especially in "combat situations."

Lemonaide, Your question about how a reactor powers up/gets more power..is a good one too. Unless you need a extreme amount of power ...the rods are not pulled up higher to expose more fuel as is done in start up proceedures. That is all I will say on it. It is not done as most peoples think in these type reactors.
Exposing to much rod..to quickly is what happened at the Chernobyl power plant in Russia. As I recall the stories here in classes and in the trades...they went from some point below 100% power to 1500% power in about 4 seconds with the obvious disasterous results which are today history. Obviously ..Chernobyl and Three Mile Island are textbook and manditory in the training of reactor operators..both US Navy and commercial.
In commercial electricity generating plants...however ...especially in the summer time like now..they are running constantly close to full power.
Commercial reactors are fueled more often too. They run through fuel ...rapidly.

The US Navy is aware of the changing nature of world conflict and problems. The new generation of submarines are designed to be more flexible than in the days of the 688 class boats. New and more advanced technologies are coming on line which vastly superceed the abilitys of the older gear. One of the primary roles of submarines ..always has been and always will be ..is intelligence gathering...spying ..on friends as well as enemys. The boats today are being built and designed with Littorial operations more in mind. Getting in close to shore and engaging in these operations. Much of this gear is already built in to the hulls where as in the older 688 class boats it was a add on ..so to speak. And remember ..these boats are already built with the concept of major design changes and equipment being inserted into them without major problems to overcome. What used to be a major change/refit is by construction techniques and designs much more routine today. Make no mistake..they can still do the cold war type jobs but are much more flexible in the littorial roles coming on line today.

As to Warpboost's post about the anechoic tiles..much of this is classified in the newer boats. I will only say that "You've come along way Baby". In addition to being installed in enviornmentally controlled areas...these areas are secure areas.
For those of you curious about this.I suggest you take a look at the pictures of the USS San Francisco in drydock..there are some newer released pictures since the drydocking. Take a close look at the tiles..both damaged and undamaged and remember these are older designs.

Thanks for some great posts guys
Great questions too,
Orangetom

how about Boron carbide?

en.wikipedia.org...

Boron Carbide (chemical formula B4C) is an extremely hard ceramic material used in tank armor, bulletproof vests, and numerous industrial applications. With a hardness of 9.3 on the mohs scale, it is the fourth hardest material known behind cubic boron nitride, diamond, and ultrahard fullerite.

Discovered in the 19th Century as a bi-product of reactions involving metal Borides, it was not until the 1930s that the material was studied scientifically. Boron Carbide is now produced industrially by the carbo-thermal reduction of B2O3 (boron oxide) in an electric arc furnace.

the new Interceptor is known to use this materials to stop high velocity bullets even at close range. i didnt mean pure ceramic but ceramic mixed with other materials to make it hard and to withstand pressure. i check in Joe Buff's book describing the U.S. Navy's interest in using ceramic, but he also put in part of the story about layers of different materials along with ceramic into the hull.

Orangetom, I was wondering if you knew why modern subs have a more rounded symmetrical looking bow opposed to the older WWII era uboats which had a sharp knife like looking bow that almost resembles a speed boats bow. Conventional thinking would be that the sharper shaped bow would be more efficient, and faster, and be more stable when running on the surface but maybe not?

Did they go to the current bow shape for reasons other than speed or efficiency like increased space or improved sonar and guidance function?


Also I was looking at the USS San Franciso pictures to see the tiles, but don’t really know what I’m looking at. The tiles on the outside of the hull rather than sandwiched inside of it right?

Thanks


[edit on 11-8-2005 by warpboost]

The way that you "step on the gas" in a nuclear sub is simple. The reactor is used to heat water that is under pressure so that it does not become steam. The heated water then flows thru a closed loop system into a heat exchanger. The heat fron this radioactive water is transferred to the non-radioactive water in the exchanger. It is this water that powers the turbine which generates the electricity to power the submarine. This heated water is kept at a certain pressure. It is the varience of this pressure that decides how much steam is produced. The lower the pressure the more steam that is created. It is the change in the pressure bubble that is the throttle for a sub.

About being able to tap an underwater fiber optic cable. I don't know of any way to be able to determine the information with out physically gaining access to the fibers themselves. What if the whole idea of the Jimmy Carter being able to tap these cables is a ruse? The idea behind it may be to get a potential enemy to send its secure information another way that can be intercepted.

Originally posted by warpboost
Conventional thinking would be that the sharper shaped bow would be more efficient, and faster, and be more stable when running on the surface but maybe not?
[edit on 11-8-2005 by warpboost]

14. Why can a submarine go faster underwater than on the surface?

A submarine's "tear drop" hull design allows it to slice cleanly through the ocean when there is water on all sides. When a "tear drop" hull submarine is on the surface, a great deal of energy is used to generate the bow wave and wake. That energy is then unavailable for propulsion. The hulls of older submarines, like the World War II vessels and the first nuclear-powered submarine, USS Nautilus, were designed with narrow bows to move faster on the surface than they did underwater.

link

Think of a "shark nose" bow rotated 360degrees about the longitudinal axis.

Good question too about the older boats.

The older boats or what is sometimes called fleet type boats ...diesels WW 2 types...were designed to run on the surface most of the time. hence the shape of the boat like a sleek knife shape. These boats were actually faster on the surface than underwater.

If you look at pictures starting with the USS Nautilus , the first nuclear American submarine..it was not long afterwords that the hull shape began to be rounded at the bow instead of the knife shape or pointed shape. These submarines began to be noticably faster underwater than they were on the surface..a complete technological breakthrough a reversal of the manner in which they operated.
Furthermore..boats stayed submerged much longer as they no longer needed to come to the surface to charge batteries. So the pointed bow..knife type shape was no longer needed as the boats spent little time running on the surface. Todays submarines are not slow running on the surface..by any means..they simply dont spend much time doing so. As soon as they can they submerge and stay hidden as much as possible.

By the way ..here is a story told to me as a young man entering this yard and first working on these boats. One of the first odd submarine storys I ever heard.
Years before I got here a submarine skipper was relieved of command when he ran his boat very fast on the surface with go-go dancers dancing on the Fairwater planes. The upper structure sticking out of the hull with the antennas on it and sometimes it has a set of wings sticking out of it ..these wings are called fairwater planes. It seems he was not supposed to run his boat that fast in public view..nor was he to endanger these girls and crew in this type of "entertainment.
Wonder if anyone else has heard this story or a variation of it.??

I hope this answers your question Warpboost

Thanks,
Orangetom

one more thing ...also the rounded cone like shape..yes it is a sonar dome. the shape accomodating the array. Hence the configuration on the bow. This is obvious on USS San Francisco pictures in the drydock..the dome is gone and you can see the sonar array though it is smashed to one side..
Those guys were very fourtunate.

Thanks again,
Orangetom

Thanks for answering my question Orangetom and LemonAide.


Orangetom, that is a pretty crazy story about the go-go dancers dancing on the sub.

Why would the captain let go go dancers dance on the fairwater planes??

Couldn't he get in whole well of trouble for just letting a non submariner or non crew member on the boat? I know that they have reporters or techs come out sometimes but those are proabably with some Admiral;s permission after a background check etc..

A quick reply before I have to shove off to work. Yup ..pretty stupid of him to do so. No I dont believe any Admiral would sign off on that one. He would havd had to do so on his own initiative. Especially to have them on there while under way.
Gotta shove off now..take care and thanks for the post.

Orangetom