Pentagon Poised To Resume Production Of Antipersonnel Mines

The Bush Administration wants to resume production of antipersonnel mines. The US has not manufactured antipersonnel mines since 1997. They will make a decision in December whether to begin production of a new antipersonnel mine called Spider and Pentagon has requested $1.3 billion for development and production of another new antipersonnel mine called the Intelligent Munitions System. The "Spider" system is a product of Alliant Techsystems and Textron, Inc.




Afghanistan, Albania, Algeria, Andorra, Angola, Antigua, Argentina, Australia, Austria, Bahamas, Bangladesh, Barbados, Belarus, Belgium, Belize, Benin, Bolivia, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Botswana, Brazil, Brunei, Bulgaria, Burkina Faso, Burundi, Cambodia, Cameroon, Canada, Cape Verde, Central African Republic, Chad, Chile, Colombia, Comoros, Congo (Brazzaville), Congo, DR, Cook Islands, Costa Rica, Cote d'Ivoire, Croatia, Cyprus, Czech Republic, Denmark, Djibouti, Dominica, Dominican Republic, Ecuador, El Salvador, Equatorial Guinea, Eritrea, Estonia, Ethiopia, Fiji, France, Gabon, Gambia, Germany, Ghana, Greece, Grenada, Guatemala, Guinea, Guinea-Bissau, Guyana, Haiti, Holy See, Honduras, Hungary, Iceland, Indonesia, Ireland, Italy, Jamaica, Japan, Jordan, Kenya, Kiribati, Latvia, Lesotho, Liberia, Liechtenstein, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Macedonia, Madagascar, Malawi, Malaysia, Maldives, Mali, Malta, , Marshall Islands, Mauritania, Mauritius, Mexico, Moldova, Monaco, Mozambique, Namibia, Nauru, Netherlands, New Zealand, Nicaragua, Niger, Nigeria, Niue, Norway, Panama, Papua New Guinea, Paraguay, Peru, Philippines, Poland, Portugal, Qatar, Romania, Rwanda, Saint Kitts and Nevis, Saint Lucia, Saint Vincent and the Grenadines, Samoa, San Marino, Sao Tome e Principe, Senegal, Serbia and Montegro, Seychelles, Sierra Leone, Slovak Republic, Slovenia, Solomon Islands, South Africa, Spain, Sudan, Suriname, Swaziland, Sweden, Switzerland, Tajikistan, Tanzania, Thailand, Timor-Leste, Togo, Trinidad and Tobago, Tunisia, Turkey, Turkmenistan, Uganda, Ukraine, United Kingdom, Uruguay, Vanuatu, Venezuela, Yemen, Zambia and Zimbabwe have all signed the Treaty to Ban Land Mines.

15-20,000 people are killed each year by landmines. But remember that most of the time the mines don´t kill but hideously maim and disfigure people (so those people are not within the 15-20,000 who are killed). A mine cannot distinguish between an armed soldier and an innocent child. What do you say, should Pentagon resume production of landmines? I guess it´s "non of our business", eh? Some people are going to make lots of money out of this, while others will be molested or killed...

Thanks to Soj for making This article

And just in case you think this is only about the new "smart" mines, I must sadly remind you that the U.S. currently has a stockpile of 10.4 million "dumb" land mines, which it is free to deploy, sell or exchange at any time so long as it does not sign the treaty.

Hey the US is going to need them for when the Texaco, Chevron and other American base companies take over the oil in Iraq.

We can not have insurgents and terrorist walking to the precious oil fields and damage production we are going to help them blow themselves better with home made mines Right?

[edit on 3-8-2005 by marg6043]

The US wont sell the old landmines to anyone. Almost all landmines that have caused death are either Russian or Chinese made. The Chinese landmines are very cheap.

Originally posted by marg6043
Hey the US is going to need them for when the Texaco, Chevron and other American base companies take over the oil in Iraq.

We can not have insurgents and terrorist walking to the precious oil fields and damage production we are going to help them blow themselves better with home made mines Right?

[edit on 3-8-2005 by marg6043]

Absolutely. Think you hit the nail right on the head there. How ashamed I am, that we keep going back, not forward. I thought we had simply learnt what a horrible, horrible kind of weapon this is.

Originally posted by marg6043
Hey the US is going to need them for when the Texaco, Chevron and other American base companies take over the oil in Iraq.

We can not have insurgents and terrorist walking to the precious oil fields and damage production we are going to help them blow themselves better with home made mines Right?

Interesting that only 5% of Iraqs oil is shipped to the US, eh, Marg?



Further interesting that Russia, China, India, Pakistan, Syria, Iran, North Korea, and a few other unmentioned countries continue to spend monies and manufacture non-detectable or untimed anti-personnel mines and are not signatories of the treaty to ban mines. No problem with that though, right? Just only when the US contemplates its own version of anti-personnel mines, eh? :shk:

The US reserves the right to contemplate development and production of such.
What Human Rights Watch fails to recognize or understand about this consideration, which they also fail to rightly mention, as par, is that unlike those above mentioned countries, the US, as with the Bush administration, is contemplating the development of a new detectable-type anti-personnel mine and has openly stated that the US will banning land mines that cannot be located with metal detectors and mines that cannot be timed.

Of interest to the Human Rights Watch and others here:
From FAS.org:

As a physicist who has spent a half-century working for national security and arms control, I am dismayed by many acts of the Bush administration, including its dangerous opposition to the nuclear test ban. But the administration deserves credit for one thing that is very right: its new policy on land mines.

Once laid, land mines explode when they sense a target. The key to their military usefulness is that only they can provide defense throughout the duration of a battle or even a war. But that is also the key to their humanitarian menace. Many mines remain active indefinitely. Long after the battle has ended, they may destroy civilian lives, limbs, land and livelihood.

But mines need not remain dangerous. They can contain timing mechanisms that will cause them to self-destruct after a set period, and they can be powered by batteries, so that, if self-destruction fails, the battery will die and the mine will be deactivated. Most mines now in U.S. stockpiles are designed to self-destruct four hours after emplacement; some can be set for as long as 30 days, the maximum for such mines allowed under the Convention on Conventional Weapons, which the U.S. has ratified. The reliability of the self-destruction mechanisms is high: In more than 65,000 tests, no activated U.S. mine has failed to self-destruct.

The essence of Bush's new policy is that after 2010, the U.S. will no longer use any persistent land mines -- that is, mines that do not self-destruct or self-deactivate -- and after 2004, the United States will not use nonmetallic mines, which are difficult to detect. The measures cover not only antipersonnel land mines but also those that target vehicles.

The United States is the first major nation to take these humanitarian steps, which make it the world's moral leader in land mine policy.

Bush Sets the Right Course in Control of Land Mines

From CNN:

The Bush administration said Friday it intends to make all U.S. land mines detectable to American forces and scrap those not timed to self-destruct. But it will not join the 150 nations that have signed an anti-land mine treaty.

Land mines with timing devices are relatively safe and "have some continuing utility for our armed forces around the world," Assistant Secretary of State Lincoln Bloomfield said while affirming U.S. opposition to the international accord.

Bloomfield said the treaty fails to deal with eliminating land mines that are designed to disable vehicles. With its new policy the Bush administration becomes the first nation in the world to set out to scrap all land mines that are not automatically disabled and will encourage other countries to follow the example, he said at a news conference.

White House: U.S. will ban some land mines

From NewsMax:

The Bush administration is banning land mines that cannot be located with metal detectors, a move designed to set an example to other nations and to protect mine hunters.

Bush Administration Bans Some Land Mines





seekerof

[edit on 3-8-2005 by Seekerof]

Nicely done, Seek.

Most people don't have a clue that there are more than one kind of mine, and that some countries for years have been perfecting mines that are undetectable, persistant, and worse of all...cheap and easy to obtain.

Well in my book is only one use for mines of any kind and you don't have to be a rocket scientist to know, they are not use for trophies or to ornate your backyard.

Land mines are to kill, maime or destroy anything that happens to step on them, with timer or not timer.

If any of you experts knows any other use for them. . . be my guess and spill it out.

It's not a big surprise to me they are going into manufacturing of maiming devices. The USA refused to sign on to No Use of Land Mines accord, which I believe the Late Princess brought to bare with most nations.

Dallas

Does anyone know how much pressure or rather weight it takes to set off an antipersonnel mine??

Like would a small animal weigh enough to set one off??

Originally posted by marg6043
Well in my book is only one use for mines of any kind and you don't have to be a rocket scientist to know, they are not use for trophies or to ornate your backyard.

Land mines are to kill, maime or destroy anything that happens to step on them, with timer or not timer.

If any of you experts knows any other use for them. . . be my guess and spill it out.

Marg I find it interesting that you are making such a fuss about a weapon that is designed for DEFENSE only. Land mines are the only purely defensive weapon that there is. If the enemy doesn't attack and stays home then they are safe. The new types that are sweepable or self-destruct will remove the problem of abandon minefields. One thing that you need to think about. Do you know who removes more land mines than they place? The US Army. In my opinion ordering the placement of a persistant minefield and not clearing it should be a war crime.

A Dannish Company has developed a genetically modified flower that changes color from green to red when there nitrogen dioxide in the soil. The article says that explosives used in mines produce NO2 as the chemicals gradually decay - Source







So does anyone know how much pressure or weight it takes to set off the average anti personnel mine?

The reason I ask if I had a crazy idea that you could make a helium filled vest to make yourself neutrally buoyant enough to walk across a mine field. Could that work?

What about a snowshoe like device that could spread your weight out enough?



[edit on 9-8-2005 by warpboost]

Originally posted by JIMC5499

Marg I find it interesting that you are making such a fuss about a weapon that is designed for DEFENSE only.

And so are "nuclear weapons" "explosives" and "bullets" until the "enemy" is the one using them against us. Right?

Then and only then they are called "Weapons of mass destruction"

Yes any type of weapon is only for DEFENSE only, as long as is in the "RIGHT" hands.

Originally posted by marg6043
And so are "nuclear weapons" "explosives" and "bullets" until the "enemy" is the one using them against us. Right?

Then and only then they are called "Weapons of mass destruction"

Yes any type of weapon is only for DEFENSE only, as long as is in the "RIGHT" hands.

If you are referring to nuclear weapons being defensive because of the MAD doctrine during the Cold War then yes they are defensive weapons. The point that I was trying to make is that it is impossible to attack someone with a landmine. As far as explosives and bullets are concerned they are tools. Explosives are used every day in construction and mining with on one getting hurt. Bullets and the guns that fire them can be used for hunting and recreation with no one getting hurt. I spent part of last Sunday shooting skeet with my nephew. The sad side of it is that war is part of human nature. The early wars were fought with sticks and stones long before the invention of guns and explosives. If you removed all of the nuclear weapons, explosives and bullets from this planet there would still be wars.

Originally posted by JIMC5499
[ The point that I was trying to make is that it is impossible to attack someone with a landmine.

What about booby traps? If someone were to put a land mine on the walkway to the front door of your house would it still be a defensive weapon??

Originally posted by warpboost
[

What about booby traps? If someone were to put a land mine on the walkway to the front door of your house would it still be a defensive weapon??

Ok we are starting to compair apples and oranges here.

I am not a soldier, my house is not in a combat zone and I am not at war. Someone coming up my front walkway is not an enemy soldier. Even after all of that the landmine didn't attack anyone. What is the difference between a landmine and an electrified fence. If I post a sign at the end of my walk saying "Warning Minefield Keep Out" and the person ignores the sign and trespasses on my property the landmine didn't attack them. It is a purely defensive weapon. I may have violated the law but I didn't attack anyone.

The US has far more interest in banning land mines than approving them. US tactrical doctrine doesn't have much use for land mines and is hindered by them when enemies employ them.

US resistance to anti-landmine treaties is based mostly on one scenario: a massive invasion of South Korea by North Korea.

The North's army is so much larger than the combined US/UN/ROK forces, that the US has used anti-tank and anti-personnel mines extensively on the N/S border, in an effort to stem an invasion should it happen. Mines are also still used in such places as GITMO, and other foreign locations. They are defensive in nature, however, there are some weapons that use mine-like technology in an offensive role (i.e. runway/airfield denial submunitions dropped by cruise missiles and aircraft - although these items are usually exposed and not hidden).

I think this is a bad idea, mines are an evil weapon during war but an even greater evil during a time of peace. What good will detectable mines do to children? The last time i checked kids normaly don't walk to school with metal detectors. Using mines around certain areas where people don't walk is acceptable but just hiding them anywhere is wrong. If the US wants to use mines then they have to sign a guarantee stating that they will remove all mines when the war is over. I am not sure what the weight requirement is to set off mines but i have seen small children with one leg so it can't be that much.

For those interested in minewarfare...
A little general info on some basic types of mines:

Normal 60-150g anti personel "step" mines:
-pressure effect (some fragmentation from triggers)
-Normaly blast off a limb and cause serious but non-fatal wounds
-installed into the ground only the trigger being above ground
-Trigger weight ~1kg
-hard to spot with naked eye
-Can easily be made undetectable
-banned by ottawa treaty




Jump mines:
-Fragmentation
-basicaly cuts a man in half
-installed to the ground, jumps up when triggered either by string or pressure
-Usually detectable
-banned by ottawa treaty
-effective blast radius ~5m

Track mine AT:
-installed to ground
-triggered by pressure (150kg)
-weight from 5kg to 10kg
-cuts tracks of MBTs and APCs
-destroys or disables wheeled vehicles
-can be converted to destructive AP mine by changing a trigger
-not banned by ottawa treaty


Bottom mine (AT)
-Ground installed
-Directed blast effect (hollow charge)
-weight 7.5kg (explosive 4kg)
-triggered by magnetic and/or seismic sensors (maybe programmable vehicle counters)
-destroys all known vehicles
-not banned by ottawa treaty


Pipemines
-installed above ground
-fragmentation
-explosives ~200g
-lethal range 15m, wounding range 30-50m
-triggered by tripwire
-banned(?) by ottawa treaty



Claymore type mines
-Installed above ground
-directed blast and fragmentation
-weight from 1.9kg(explosives 900g) to 19kg (explosives 12kg)
-lethal range 50-150m within blast sector
-heavier models capable of damaging vehicles
-detonated by tripwire or electric fuse (by installer)
-not banned by ottawa treaty






Area dispensed mines
-deployed by artillery, MRLSs, Aircrafts or dispensers
-weight from 50g to 5kg
-both AP and AT
-can be triggered by movement of mine, tripwires or magnetic sensors (acoustic sensor maybe)
-usually cannot be disarmed without detonation (some have timers to disable them)
-randomly dispensed, no minefield maps made when used
-cause most damage to civillian population


In my opinion man installed land mines, when used by organized army with procedures followed during installation, are effective defensive weapons, that can be easily disarmed using minefieldmaps made when-ever mines are layed.
It's fast to clear limited and mapped areas etither bu hand or by clearing vehicles:


Only when un-organized troops dispense mines around countryside during guerilla operations etc. they pose a threat to civillian population, not when used by proper engineers...
Area dispensed mines are another thing they are harder to clear and can easily be used irresponsible.
And when it comes to ottawa treaty it prohibits te most un-effective mines only.



[edit on 10-8-2005 by northwolf] fixed images

[edit on 10-8-2005 by northwolf] spelling

[edit on 10-8-2005 by northwolf]

Originally posted by NinjaCodeMonkey
What good will detectable mines do to children? The last time i checked kids normaly don't walk to school with metal detectors.

Did you see the post that I made above? A company called Aresa has developed a genetically engineered strain of Thale Cress (which will grow just about anywhere from what I understand) that turns red when there is high levels of NO2 in the soil from the explosives used in mines

Kids won’t need a metal detector, they will just need to be taught not walk on or near the red flowers.

Check out this picture







northwolf, don't they also use explosives to clear mines? IIRC I saw a video of a engineering tank that fired a long web like coil of det cord like material over a mine field and then detonated it clearing a path.

[edit on 10-8-2005 by warpboost]