Seems kind of odd to me (Judaism v. Christianity)

Christ was not killed because the Jews thought he was a false prophet; He was killed because He called Himself the Son of God and claimed divinity and Godhood. He was right to do so, because He is God; that is why He died.

When the chief priests therefore and officers saw him, they cried out, saying, Crucify him, crucify him. Pilate saith unto them, Take ye him, and crucify him: for I find no fault in him.
The Jews answered him, We have a law, and by our law he ought to die, because he made himself the Son of God. John 19:6-7

First of all, He agreed that yes, He was the son of God. Which is truth. And even though God Himself was in Christ, Jesus the man was still there, too and as such did not elevate Himself to God...but knew that God would elevate Him soon enough...and yet remained humble and meek as had to be. He was not crowned at the time--He was annointed to be King but not in full possession of the kingdom at that time--according to human perception which is linear.

Besides all that, that wasn't the real and true reason driving the Pharisees to direct venom and hate toward even a so-called 'false' prophet. They positively were ate up about the whole thing!

Now the chief priests, and elders, and all the council, sought false witness against Jesus, to put him to death; But found none: yea, though many false witnesses came, yet found they none. At the last came two false witnesses, And said, This fellow said, I am able to destroy the temple of God, and to build it in three days. And the high priest arose, and said unto him, Answerest thou nothing? what is it which these witness against thee? But Jesus held his peace. And the high priest answered and said unto him, I adjure thee by the living God, that thou tell us whether thou be the Christ, the Son of God. Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven. Then the high priest rent his clothes, saying, He hath spoken blasphemy; what further need have we of witnesses? behold, now ye have heard his blasphemy. What think ye? They answered and said, He is guilty of death. Then did they spit in his face, and buffeted him; and others smote him with the palms of their hands,
Matthew 26:59-67

Why did people rent their clothing back then? Not because someone they didn't even respect, much less love, was being sentenced to death! They did it out of grief! Because they had already set their hearts against Him (or rather God had) yet His words gave them to grief and mourning!

Why? Because He spoke the truth and still they knew they desired their power and position over the national desire for His long-awaited presence. And if they weren't sure then, it was clear when the sky went dark at the moment Jesus died! They knew! They killed so many afterward--even Paul participated in killing those who believed the truth!

If they had truly thought He had blasphemed or had any righteous and good reason--they would not have sought out for false witness against Him. Their actions betrayed their motivations, and Christ told them that as well. Since He had come as He said, the Pharisees had no reason to deny the truth yet they killed Him to deny that truth.

OK, this thread started out as intending to point out some inconsistencies in the way the Jews perceived Jesus.

Ain't no way you're going to be able to say that those Jews really believed that Jesus was the Messiah and they decided to just go ahead and kill the Messiah - you just can't make that one stick and you sure can't making it stick by quoting from the NT. It won't matter if you quote the entire NT in Greek - Jews (and a lot of us non-Jews) just don't believe those stories.

So, if you all wish to continue discussing the Christian perception of Judaism, be my guest. It's just wrong, that's all.

Originally posted by Al Davison

Ain't no way you're going to be able to say that those Jews really believed that Jesus was the Messiah and they decided to just go ahead and kill the Messiah - you just can't make that one stick and you sure can't making it stick by quoting from the NT. It won't matter if you quote the entire NT in Greek - Jews (and a lot of us non-Jews) just don't believe those stories.

So, if you all wish to continue discussing the Christian perception of Judaism, be my guest. It's just wrong, that's all.

Al- I never said that I believed that the Leadership of the Jews knew that they were killing the true Messiah, in fact there is scripture evidence that they did not. However, they played the role that God had set for them, in order to bring about fulfillment of old Testament prophecy regarding when, how, where and why the Messiah would be rejected, falsely accused and exectued. The Old Testament clearly points to Jesus Christ. The New Testament clearly shows that Jesus Christ fulfilled those prophecies.
Whether you choose to accept what is written in the New Testament, or not, is up to you; and between you and God. No one can force you to believe anything. I would only caution you to be sure that you have all the facts and evidence at hand before you reject Jesus, out of hand.

Grace and Peace,

Lightseeker

There have been so many threads on this board showing that the Christian Jesus did not fulfill OT prophecy that I am not going to repeat them all - do a little searching and you'll see. The parts that Jesus fulfilled were parts that could have easily been staged if you wanted to "prove" that you were the Messiah. None of the "hard parts" were even close to being fulfilled.

1) Jesus was killed for Insurrection by the Gentiles.

The Plaque.
"The King of the Jews."

Blasphemy is not a Gentile "Capital Offense". Being a Rival King was though. Thus the Jews saved thier Butts by claiming "We have no king except Caesar". Jesus Verified his Claim of being a "king" and was Crucified by "Pilate". Who made a mockery of Jesus. "Do you want to crucify, Your king of the Jews?" While parading him in a Crown of thorns, etc.

The Jews yelled “kill him”. Rome pulled the trigger and shot him dead.

Originally posted by Al Davison
There have been so many threads on this board showing that the Christian Jesus did not fulfill OT prophecy that I am not going to repeat them all - do a little searching and you'll see. The parts that Jesus fulfilled were parts that could have easily been staged if you wanted to "prove" that you were the Messiah. None of the "hard parts" were even close to being fulfilled.

His Birth & Childhood
Born in Bethlehem
- Mic.5:2 But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from ancient times.
- Mt.2:1 After Jesus was born in Bethlehem in Judea, during the time of King Herod, Magi from the east came to Jerusalem. (Lk.2:4-7)

Born of a Virgin
Isa.7:14 Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel.
- Mt.1:18 This is how the birth of Jesus Christ came about: his mother Mary was pledged to be married to Joseph, but before they came together, she was found to be with child through the Holy Spirit. (Lk.1:26-35)

Time of His Birth
Dan.9:25 Know and understand this: From the issuing of the decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One, the ruler, comes, there will be seven "sevens" and sixty two "sevens." It will be rebuilt with streets and a trench, but in times of trouble.
- Lk 2:1-2 In those days Caesar Augustus issued a decree that a census should be taken of the entire Roman world. (This was the first census that took place while Quirinius was the governor of Syria.) (Lk 2:3-7)
- Mat.2:1 After Jesus was born in Bethlehem in Judea, during the time of King Herod, Magi from the east came to Jerusalem

The Slaughter of Innocent Children
Jer.31:15 This is what the Lord says: "A voice is heard in Ramah, mourning and great weeping, Rachel weeping for her children and refusing to be comforted, because her children are no more."
- Mt.2:16 When Herod realized that he had been outwitted by the Magi, he was furious, and he gave orders to kill all the boys in Bethlehem and its vicinity who were two years old and under, in accordance with the time he had learned from the Magi. (Mt 2:16-18)

Jesus would live in Galilee
Isaiah 9:1-2 (NIV) Nevertheless, there will be no more gloom for those who were in distress. In the past he humbled the land of Zebulun and the land of Naphtali, but in the future he will honor Galilee of the Gentiles, by the way of the sea, along the Jordan-- 2 The people walking in darkness have seen a great light; on those living in the land of the shadow of death a light has dawned.

Matthew 4:13-16 (NIV) Leaving Nazareth, he went and lived in Capernaum, which was by the lake in the area of Zebulun and Naphtali-- 14 to fulfill what was said through the prophet Isaiah: 15 "Land of Zebulun and land of Naphtali, the way to the sea, along the Jordan, Galilee of the Gentiles-- 16 the people living in darkness have seen a great light; on those living in the land of the shadow of death a light has dawned."

His Public Minstry

He would heal people of disease and sickness
Isaiah 53:4 (NIV) Surely he took up our infirmities and carried our sorrows, yet we considered him stricken by God, smitten by him, and afflicted.

Isaiah 35:5-6 (NIV) Then will the eyes of the blind be opened and the ears of the deaf unstopped. 6 Then will the lame leap like a deer, and the mute tongue shout for joy. Water will gush forth in the wilderness and streams in the desert.

Isaiah 42:18 (NIV) "Hear, you deaf; look, you blind, and see!

Matthew 8:16-17 (NIV) When evening came, many who were demon-possessed were brought to him, and he drove out the spirits with a word and healed all the sick. 17 This was to fulfill what was spoken through the prophet Isaiah: "He took up our infirmities and carried our diseases."

Matthew 11:5 (NIV) The blind receive sight, the lame walk, those who have leprosy are cured, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, and the good news is preached to the poor.


He would teach in parables
Isaiah 6:9-10 (NIV) He said, "Go and tell this people: "'Be ever hearing, but never understanding; be ever seeing, but never perceiving.' 10 Make the heart of this people calloused; make their ears dull and close their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts, and turn and be healed."

Psalms 78:2 (NIV) I will open my mouth in parables, I will utter hidden things, things from of old--

Matthew 13:11-15 (NIV) He replied, "The knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them. 12 Whoever has will be given more, and he will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken from him. 13 This is why I speak to them in parables: "Though seeing, they do not see; though hearing, they do not hear or understand. 14 In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah: "'You will be ever hearing but never understanding; you will be ever seeing but never perceiving. 15 For this people's heart has become calloused; they hardly hear with their ears, and they have closed their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts and turn, and I would heal them.'

Matthew 13:34-35 (NIV) Jesus spoke all these things to the crowd in parables; he did not say anything to them without using a parable. 35 So was fulfilled what was spoken through the prophet: "I will open my mouth in parables, I will utter things hidden since the creation of the world."

He would be rejected by the Jews
Isaiah 6:10 (NIV) Make the heart of this people calloused; make their ears dull and close their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts, and turn and be healed."

Isaiah 29:13 (NIV) The Lord says: "These people come near to me with their mouth and honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. Their worship of me is made up only of rules taught by men.

Isaiah 53:3 (NIV) He was despised and rejected by men, a man of sorrows, and familiar with suffering. Like one from whom men hide their faces he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

Matthew 15:1-9 (NIV) Then some Pharisees and teachers of the law came to Jesus from Jerusalem and asked, 2 "Why do your disciples break the tradition of the elders? They don't wash their hands before they eat!" 3 Jesus replied, "And why do you break the command of God for the sake of your tradition? 4 For God said, 'Honor your father and mother' and 'Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.' 5 But you say that if a man says to his father or mother, 'Whatever help you might otherwise have received from me is a gift devoted to God,' 6 he is not to 'honor his father ' with it. Thus you nullify the word of God for the sake of your tradition. 7 You hypocrites! Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you: 8 "'These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. 9 They worship me in vain; their teachings are but rules taught by men.'"

Mark 6:3 (NIV) Isn't this the carpenter? Isn't this Mary's son and the brother of James, Joseph, Judas and Simon? Aren't his sisters here with us?" And they took offense at him.

Mark 7:6-7 (NIV) He replied, "Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you hypocrites; as it is written: "'These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. 7 They worship me in vain; their teachings are but rules taught by men.'

Luke 9:58 (NIV) Jesus replied, "Foxes have holes and birds of the air have nests, but the Son of Man has no place to lay his head."

John 1:11 (NIV) He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him.


His Arrest, Trial and Crucifiction
His death would atone for the sins of mankind
Isaiah 53:5-7 (NIV) But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed. 6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all. 7 He was oppressed and afflicted, yet he did not open his mouth; he was led like a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is silent, so he did not open his mouth.

Isaiah 53:12 (NIV) Therefore I will give him a portion among the great, and he will divide the spoils with the strong, because he poured out his life unto death, and was numbered with the transgressors. For he bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

Mark 10:45 (NIV) For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many."

John 1:29 (NIV) The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, "Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

John 3:16 (NIV) "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

Passion:
Triumphal entry in Jerusalem on a donkey:
- Zec.9:9 Rejoice greatly, O Daughter of Zion! Shout, Daughter of Jerusalem! See, your king comes to you, righteous and having salvation, gentle and riding on a donkey, on a colt, the foal of a donkey. (Isa.62:11)
- Jn.12:13-14 They took palm branches and went out to meet him, shouting, "Hosanna!" "Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord!" "Blessed is the King of Israel!" Jesus found a young donkey and sat upon it, as it is written. (Mt.21:1-11; Jn.12:12, Mk.11:7-9.)

Betrayed by a friend, for 30 pieces of silver:
- Ps.41:9 Even my close friend, whom I trusted, he who shared my bread, has lifted up his heel against me.
- Mk.14:10 Then Judas Iscariot, one of the Twelve, went to the chief priests to betray Jesus to them. (Mt.26:14-16; Mk.14:43-45)
- Zec.11:12 I told them, "If you think it best, give me my pay; but if not, keep it." So they paid me thirty pieces of silver. (Zec.11:13)
- Mt.26:15 And asked, "What are you willing to give me if I hand him over to you?" So they counted out for him thirty silver coins. (Mt 27:3-10)

Accused by false witnesses:
Ps.27:12 Do not turn me over to the desire of my foes, for false witnesses rise up against me, breathing out violence. (Ps.35:11)
- Mt.26:60-61 But they did not find any, though many false witnesses came forward. Finally two men came forward and declared, "This fellow said, 'I am able to destroy the temple of God and rebuild it in three days.'"

Silent to accusations:
Isa.53:7 He was oppressed and afflicted, yet he did not open his mouth; he was led like a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is silent, so he did not open his mouth. (Ps.38:13-14)
- Mt 26:62-63 Then the high priest stood up and said to Jesus, "Are you not going to answer? What is this testimony that these men are bringing against you?" But Jesus remained silent. The high priest said to him, "I charge you under oath by the living God: Tell us if you are the Christ, the Son of God!" (Mt 27:12-14, Mk.15:4-5)

Soldiers divided his garments and gambled for his clothing:
Ps 22:18 They divide my garments among them and cast lots for my clothing.
- Mt.27:35 And they crucified him, and parted his garments, casting lots: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, They parted my garments among them, and upon my vesture did they cast lots (Mk.15:24).

Crucified, "pierced through hands and feet"
Ps.22:16 Dogs have surrounded me; a band of evil men has encircled me, they have pierced my hands and my feet. (Zec.12:10)
- Mt.27:35 And they crucified him.
- Jn. 20:25-26 Now Thomas (called Didymus)... he said to them, "Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe it." (Jn.19:37, 20:27)

Crucified with Criminals:
Isa.53:12 Therefore I will give him a portion among the great, and he will divide the spoils with the strong, because he poured out his life unto death, and was numbered with the transgressors. For he bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.
- Mt 27:38 Two robbers were crucified with him, one on his right and one on his left. (Mk 15:27-28; Lk 23:33)

His side pierced:
Zec.12:10 They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son.
- Jn 19:34 Instead, one of the soldiers pierced Jesus' side with a spear, bringing a sudden flow of blood and water.

Buried with the rich:
Isa.53:9 He was assigned a grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death, though he had done no violence, nor was any deceit in his mouth.
- Mt.27:57-60 As evening approached, there came a rich man from Arimathea, named Joseph, who had himself become a disciple of Jesus. Going to Pilate, he asked for Jesus' body, and Pilate ordered that it be given to him. Joseph took the body, wrapped it in a clean linen cloth, and placed it in his own new tomb that he had cut out of the rock. He rolled a big stone in front of the entrance to the tomb and went away

His Resurrection
Psalm 16:8-11 I have set the LORD always before me. Because he is at my right hand, I will not be shaken. 9 Therefore my heart is glad and my tongue rejoices; my body also will rest secure, 10 because you will not abandon me to the grave, nor will you let your Holy One see decay. 11 You have made known to me the path of life; you will fill me with joy in your presence, with eternal pleasures at your right hand.

Hosea 6:2 (NIV) After two days he will revive us; on the third day he will restore us, that we may live in his presence.

Matthew 12:40 (NIV) For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

Matthew 28:1-20 (NIV) After the Sabbath, at dawn on the first day of the week, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary went to look at the tomb. 2 There was a violent earthquake, for an angel of the Lord came down from heaven and, going to the tomb, rolled back the stone and sat on it. 3 His appearance was like lightning, and his clothes were white as snow. 4 The guards were so afraid of him that they shook and became like dead men. 5 The angel said to the women, "Do not be afraid, for I know that you are looking for Jesus, who was crucified. 6 He is not here; he has risen, just as he said. Come and see the place where he lay. 7 Then go quickly and tell his disciples: 'He has risen from the dead and is going ahead of you into Galilee. There you will see him.' Now I have told you." 8 So the women hurried away from the tomb, afraid yet filled with joy, and ran to tell his disciples. 9 Suddenly Jesus met them. "Greetings," he said. They came to him, clasped his feet and worshiped him. 10 Then Jesus said to them, "Do not be afraid. Go and tell my brothers to go to Galilee; there they will see me." 11 While the women were on their way, some of the guards went into the city and reported to the chief priests everything that had happened. 12 When the chief priests had met with the elders and devised a plan, they gave the soldiers a large sum of money, 13 telling them, "You are to say, 'His disciples came during the night and stole him away while we were asleep.' 14 If this report gets to the governor, we will satisfy him and keep you out of trouble." 15 So the soldiers took the money and did as they were instructed. And this story has been widely circulated among the Jews to this very day. 16 Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. 17 When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. 18 Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."

Jesus Name Exalted Above Every Name
Jeremiah 23:5-6 (NIV) "The days are coming," declares the LORD, "when I will raise up to David a righteous Branch, a King who will reign wisely and do what is just and right in the land. 6 In his days Judah will be saved and Israel will live in safety. This is the name by which he will be called: The LORD Our Righteousness.

Romans 10:9 (NIV) That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Philippians 2:9-11 (NIV) Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

That is a very small portion of the 300+ OT prophecies fulfilled by Jesus Christ; show me which OT Prophesies He did not fulfill.

Grace & Peace,

Lightseeker

Here's a sample - I can provide dozens more but this should keep you busy for a while: (BTW - the credit for this goes to Shonet - in the Absolute Power of Christianity thread on page 11. She's way more knowledgeable about all of this than am I.)


quote: Or how about all the prohecies in the book of Isaiah and the other prophets.


Yes, how about them? They don't predict G-d becoming a man and then killing himself. They predict the moshaich who will NOT be a G-d or a remnant of G-d.

quote: The prohecies that predict he will be of the lineage of David, he will be born in Bethleham,


Ok one thing at a time. Jesus' father was G-d....not Joseph. G-d doesn't have a tribal heritage. So he would automatically be eliminated as being of the root of Jesse and the tribe of Judah. Moving on to Bethlehem.

Micah 5.1
But thou, Beth-lehem Ephrathah, which art little to be among the thousands of Judah, out of thee shall one come forth unto Me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth are from of old, from ancient days.

This verse has no reference to the Messiah but it shows that all rulers will come from Bethlehem where David was born...hence whose goings forth are from of old.

quote: AND AT HIS DEATH he will be speared in the side, but none of his bones will be broken, "they will cast lots for his clothes." etc..., etc...


The moshaich as promised to Israel will cause death to cease. How could there be any reference to him dying? Isaiah 25.8....He will swallow up death forever. Also, try getting a better translation. Verse one says, "For the leader; on ayyeleth ha-shahar. A psalm of David. This psalm is actually read for Purim as it pertains to Haman. And ayyeleth ha-shahar means Deer of the Dawn which is a musical term for the melody that the psalm was sung to.

quote: If you believe Jesus was the Messiah then it's interesting to know that all of these prohecies came to pass.


I don't believe he's the messiah and these weren't prophecies. Below are the prophecies. Can you tell me why when Jesus was "here," they didn't come to pass?

World Peace

"And he [Messiah] shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks. Nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more." -- Isaiah 2:4

"He [Messiah] will destroy death forever." -- Isaiah 25:8

"Then the inhabitants of the cities of Israel will go out and make fire and feed them with the weapons -- shields and bucklers, bows and arrows, clubs and spears; they shall use them as fuel for seven years." -- Ezekiel 39:9

Universal Knowledge of G-d

"For the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea. -- Isaiah 11:9

"And no longer shall one teach his neighbor or shall one teach his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,' for they shall all know Me, from their smallest to their greatest," says the Lord" -- Jeremiah 31:33

"All who survive of all those nations that came up against Jerusalem shall make a pilgrimage year by year to bow low to the King Lord of Hosts and to observe the feasts." -- Zechariah 14:16

"And the Lord shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one Lord, and His name one." -- Zechariah 14:9

"Thus said the Lord of Hosts: In those days, ten men from nations of every tongue will take hold -- they will take hold of every Jew by a corner of his cloak and say, "Let us go with you, for we have heard that G-d is with you."
-- Zachariah 8.23

Building of the Third Temple

"...and I will set My sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore. My temple also shall be with them. Yes, I will be their G-d and they shall be My people. And the heathen shall know that I the Lord do sanctify Israel, when My sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore. -- Ezekiel 37:26-28 (See also Ezekiel 40-48; Isaiah 33:20)

Death Will Cease

"He will swallow up death forever...." -- Isaiah 25:8

Resurrection of the Dead

"Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust, for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead." -- Isaiah 26:19

"And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt." -- Daniel 12:2

"Therefore, prophesy and say to them, "So says the Lord G-d: Lo! I open your graves and cause you to come up out of your graves as My people, and bring you home to the land of Israel. Then you shall know that I am the Lord, when I open your graves and lead you up out of your graves as My people."-- Ezekiel 37:12-13

Ingathering of Israel

"I will bring thy seed from the east, and gather you from the west. I will say to the north, ''Give up,'' and to the south, "Keep not back, bring My sons from far, and My daughter from the ends of the earth. -- Isaiah 43:5-6. (See also Jeremiah 16:15; 23:3; Isaiah 11:12; Zechariah 10:6; Ezekiel 37:21-22)

(And he shall set up a banner for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth. -- Isaiah 11:12

But, As the L-rd lives, who brought the people of Israel from the land of the north, and from all the lands where he had driven them; and I will bring them back to their land that I gave to their fathers. -- Jeremiah 16:15

And I will gather the remnant of my flock from all countries where I have driven them, and will bring them again to their folds; and they shall be fruitful and increase. -- Jeremiah 23:3

21. And say to them, Thus says the Lord G-d: Behold, I will take the people of Israel from among the nations, where they have gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land;
22. And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all; and they shall be no more two nations, nor shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all; -- Ezekiel 37: 21-22)

The Nations Will Help the Jews Materially

"Then you shall see and be radiant, and your heart shall fear and expand; because the abundance of the sea shall be overturned upon you, the wealth of the nations shall come to you." -- Isaiah 60:5

"Foreigners shall build up your walls, and their kings shall minister to you. Men shall bring you the wealth of the nations with their kings led in procession. For the nation and kingdom that will not serve you shall perish; those nations shall be utterly laid waste." -- Isaiah 60:10--12

"But you shall be called “priests of the L-rd,” men shall say of you, “ministers of our G-d;” you shall eat the wealth of the nations, and in their riches you shall glory." -- Isaiah 61:6

Eternal Joy and Gladness Will Characterize the Jewish Nation

"And the redeemed of the L-rd shall return, and come to Zion in song; everlasting joy shall be upon their head; they shall obtain joy and gladness, and sorrow and sighing shall flee. -- Isaiah 51:11

The Jews Will Be Sought For Spiritual Guidance

Thus says the L--rd of hosts: “In those days ten men out of all the languages of the nations shall take hold and seize the robe of a Jew, saying: `Let us go with you, for we have heard that G-d is with you.' ” -- Zechariah 8:23

All Weapons Of War Will Be Destroyed

"Then those who dwell in the cities of Israel will go forth and set fire to the weapons and burn them, shields and bucklers, bows and arrows, handspikes and spears, and they will make fires of them for seven years...." -- Ezekiel 39:9

The Enemy Dead Will Be Buried

For seven months the House of Israel will be burying them, in order to cleanse the land. -- Ezekiel 39:12

The Egyptian River Will Run Dry

"And the L-rd will utterly destroy the tongue of the sea of Egypt and wave His hand over the river with His scorching wind, and smite it into seven channels, and make men cross dryshod." -- Isaiah 11:15

Trees Will Yield New Fruit Monthly in Israel

And on both sides of the bank of the stream, all trees for food will grow; their leaves will not wither nor will their fruit fail, but they will bear fresh fruit every month, because their waters flow from the Sanctuary; their fruit will be for food, and their leaves for medicine. -- Ezekiel 47:12

Each Tribe of Israel Will Receive It's Inheritance

"Thus says the L-rd, G-d: “These are the boundaries by which you shall divide the land for inheritance among the twelve tribes of Israel: Joseph shall have two portions. And you shall divide equally that which I swore to give your fathers, and this land shall fall to you as your inheritance.” -- Ezekiel 47:13--14

All Warfare Will Cease

"And He shall judge among the nations and decide for many peoples; and they shall beat their swords into ploughshares, and their spears into pruning hooks; nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war anymore." -- Isaiah 2:4

Originally posted by Al Davison
Here's a sample - I can provide dozens more but this should keep you busy for a while: (BTW - the credit for this goes to Shonet - in the Absolute Power of Christianity thread on page 11. She's way more knowledgeable about all of this than am I.)


quote: Or how about all the prohecies in the book of Isaiah and the other prophets.


Yes, how about them? They don't predict G-d becoming a man and then killing himself. They predict the moshaich who will NOT be a G-d or a remnant of G-d.

quote: The prohecies that predict he will be of the lineage of David, he will be born in Bethleham,


Ok one thing at a time. Jesus' father was G-d....not Joseph. G-d doesn't have a tribal heritage. So he would automatically be eliminated as being of the root of Jesse and the tribe of Judah. Moving on to Bethlehem.

Micah 5.1
But thou, Beth-lehem Ephrathah, which art little to be among the thousands of Judah, out of thee shall one come forth unto Me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth are from of old, from ancient days.

This verse has no reference to the Messiah but it shows that all rulers will come from Bethlehem where David was born...hence whose goings forth are from of old.

quote: AND AT HIS DEATH he will be speared in the side, but none of his bones will be broken, "they will cast lots for his clothes." etc..., etc...

All of the prophcies in Isaiah and others regarding the birth and ministry and death of Jesus Christ were fulfilled; I just spent an hour yesterday posting them above, All of the other prophecies that you mentioned are of the world are After the 2nd coming of Christ when death shall end, when all men will seek out Jerusalem and Israel becuase that is where Messiah will reign from.

As to the verses from Micah, regarding Bethlahem, read it again; it doesn't say from you all of the kings of Israel will come, (check your jewish and biblical history)except for David, not one other king of Isreal or Judea was born in Bethlehem. The passage says, "But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for Me One who will be Ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times (or -- from days of eternity)." (Micah 5:2).
"...His greatness will reach to the ends of the earth. And He will be their peace." (Micah 5:4-5). Note that One is capitolized which always denotes divinity. This passage is not saying that all of the kings of Judea and isreal will come from Bethlehem; this is a direct reference of the Messiah.

Grace & Peace,

Lightseeker


Lightseeker

Yeshua did not fulfill the requirements of the Messiah. That is a fact. There is no peace on earth, no universal worship of God, no Third Temple. If he comes back and fulfills them THEN you can call him the Messiah.

The Jewish people CANNOT accept him as there saviour given whats in the NT. The thought of a human sacrificing atoning for sins is appaling to them. Furthermore, they cannot accept the concept of trinity, to them God is ONE

Also, to the one who wants to quote a million verses as Yeshua fulfilling them...please study from something other than the King James...Get a Tanakh...the NT authors pulled it out of context and most have nothing to do with the messiah (i think this has already been shown above so ill refrain)

Of-course Jesus Christ fullfilled all the OLD TESTAMENT prophecies.

Time and time again it has been posted here.....

Death was conquered...........THE RESURRECTION

People see PEACE within living in a earthly world.......Jesus Christ said
''My Kingdom IS NOT OF THIS WORLD''
Peace can be found WITHIN OURSELVES.....ONLY WE can do this .

Everything that was prophecied was FULLFILLED....

* Introduction
* Survey of the Messianic Prophecies
* The Prophecies in the Books of Moses
* The Prophecies of King David
* The Prophecies of Isaiah
* The Suffering Messiah
* The Resurrection of the Messiah
* The Prophecies of Daniel
* Prophesies of the “Lesser” Prophets
* Awaiting the Coming of the Messiah
* The Fulfillment of the Old Testament Prophecies
* Distorted Notions About the Messiah
* In the Appendix
o Prophecies regarding the Church and New Testament Times
o Two Paschas (Easters)
o The Forthcoming Conversion of the Jewish people to Christ
* The Index of the Messianic Prophecies
o a) by content
o b) by author in chronological order

READ~

Brief overview of the
historical books of the Bible
AND HERE

excellent article on the Creation of the World; Making of the Tabernacle and the Rite of Church Consecration.......OLD TESTAMENT TO THE NEW TESTAMENT.

February 24, 2003 (P.ru) -- Modern Biblical scholars have found a connection between the text of the first chapter of Genesis, the description of the making of the tabernacle (Exodus, ch.25-31, ch.40), and the symbols of Divine Services in the Temple in chapters 24 and 50 in the Book of Joshua the Son of Sirach (P.J. Kearney, "Creation and Liturgy: The P Redaction of Ex 25-40", Zeitschrift fur die Alttestamentliche Wissenschaft 89, 1977; C.H.T. Fletcher-Louis, "The Temple Cosmology of P and Theological Anthropology in the Wisdom of Jesus ben Sira", ed. C. A. Evans, Studies in scripture in early Judaism and Christianity, vol. 8; M. Barker, "Time and Eternity. The World of the Temple", The Month, 1, 2001).

The conformity of the sequence of the making of the tabernacle with seven days of the creation of the world is apparent. In Genesis each of seven God's commands begins with the words: "And God said" (Gen 1:3, 6, 9, 14, 20, 24, 26). In Exodus, chapters 25-31, each of seven speeches of God devoted to the making of the tabernacle, begins with the words: "And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying," (Exo 25:1; 30:11, 17, 22, 34; 31:1, 12). In Exodus chapter 40 seven stages of the making of the tabernacle are divided by the words: as the LORD commanded to Moses (Exo 40:19, 21, 23, 25, 27, 29, 32).

The article offered here to the readers of "Pravoslavie.RU" is an attempt to mark some parallels between the above Bible verses and the Orthodox rites of church consecration. I also tried to emphasize again the truth that the Orthodox Divine services are the best introduction to the Holy Scripture.

HERE

tHE SIGNIFICANCE OF THE FEAST DAY.......PASCHA...(Easter for those that dont know)...WHICH IS SUNDAY...KIRIAKI....MEANING LORDS DAY.

It is fitting to understand that on the sixth day of the week, Friday, the Lord was crucified because on the sixth day of the week during Creation, Adam, the first man, was formed.
Furthermore, at the
sixth hour of the day, He was suspended on the Holy Cross because at the sixth hour, tradition tells us, Adam stretched out his hands toward the forbidden tree to eat the fruit and inherited death.
Therefore it was fitting that at the same shattering hour the Old Adam would be created anew. The Lord¹s Crucifixion was in a garden because Adam was deceived in a garden in Paradise. The bitter drink which the Lord tasted on the Cross healed the tasting of Adam. The Holy Cross replaced the tree in Paradise. The slap on the Face signified our awakening from the stupor of sin. The spitting and the
dishonorable behavior toward the Lord makes manifest the value He places on us. The crown of thorns relieved us from the curse surrounding the head of Adam and Eve. The purple cloak replaced the
garment of skin and symbolized the royal garment with which He covers us. The nails indicated our total immobility in our sins. The pierced Side of the Lord, from which our salvation came forth, represented
the side of Adam, from which Eve came forth and out of whom the transgression occurred. The spear removed the fiery sword which guarded Paradise after the disobedience. The water from the Side was
an image of Holy Baptism. The blood and the reed were the means through which the Savior, as though writing in imperial red ink, decreed, as a King from on high, the restoration of the ancient homeland.

It is said that the skull of Adam lay where Christ, as the Head of all, was Crucified, and Adam was baptized through the Blood of Christ, which flowed from Him and down onto Adam¹s skull. It is
called the Place of the Skull because during the Flood the earth expelled the skull of Adam, which rolled around by itself in a circle, and this was viewed as a fearsome sign. The Holy Prophet and
King Solomon, out of respect toward the Forefather, covered it up with many stones. Moreover, the eminent saints say, as is the tradition, that Adam was buried there by an angel. Therefore, where
Adam¹s corpse lay, there Christ stood as the everlasting King, the New Adam, healing by the wood of the Holy Cross the Old Adam who had fallen by the wood of the tree.

It should be noted that on this day there is no celebration of the Divine Liturgy, nor of the Liturgy of the Presanctified Gifts. On this day of the Holy Crucifixion we neither eat nor drink anything according to the words which the Lord spoke to the Pharisees: But the days will come when the Bridegroom will be taken away from them, and then they will fast (Matt. 9:15).

REST HERE

People just READ falsely others interpretations of what scripture says....and was prophesied would happen!
To understand the Bible,one must read the whole Bible with not their OWN understanding.....as Scripture also tells us.

Creature
or
Creator?
Divinity of Christ

And there's more......but enough for now.....

IX
helen

"That they may all be one, as Thou, Father, art in Me, and I in Thee, that they also may be one in Us" (John 17:21)

Jesus Christ says that He is in the Father and the Father in Him........

As the Lord God can be in US.....WE CANNOT BE IN GOD!

Jesus Christ says ''That they may all be one, as Thou, Father, art in Me, and I in Thee......If Jesus Christ was merely a MAN ...How can He say I am in the FATHER???

We can say that God is in US ....BUT cannot say WE ARE IN THE FATHER GOD!
(no other man made such a claim!)

"Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on the earth? I tell you, nay; but rather division: for from henceforth there shall be five in one house (the Church of Christ) be divided, three against two, and two against three" (Luke 12:51-52)

Jesus Christ saw the future and says......there will be divisions amongst man....different religions roaming the earth....
Man against man....

the Parable of the Wedding Feast///

The wedding or marriage feast, where there is always much light, joy and merriment in the presence of the groom and bride, has of old been a symbol of the Kingdom of Heaven. The Old Testament Israel already knew this symbol from the works of King Solomon (see The Proverbs of Solomon, 9:1­6).

The Pharisees constantly said that the Jews are God's chosen people and that the coming Kingdom of God is intended only for them. The people got so used to this prejudice that it was offensive to them to hear in the parable of the workers in the vineyard words from the Savior threatening to them: The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof (Matthew 21:43). The Lord, the Knower of hearts, of course, knew of His audience's confusion, and in the new parable of those called to the marriage feast He explains to them what is needed in order to become a genuinely chosen man.

www.orthodox.net...

There really isn't and shouldn't be any Judaism v. Christianity......There never was.......

The prophetic words of Zechariah, "Then they will look on Me Whom they have pierced" (Zech. 12:10), both in the Gospel and in the Apocalypse are quoted in the same manner, according to the Greek translation of the "Seventy" (Rev. 1:7 and John 19:37, Septuagint translation).



IX
helen

"you are confusing the leadership of the Temple with The Jews"


"at the accounts by Jewish records is ridden with struggle for power between kings and priest, priest and rabbis this was the political make up of the Jewish nation at the time."

" Jesus was already Jewish, the matter is only if he was a prophet or not. "

" (Judaism v. Christianity) "


Well guys, I don't know if I can keep pace with all of you here on scriptures or not, but I see something terribly wrong here.

A very serious and popular practice of lumping all the jews together, and actually using that newly created term [jew ]. [ I've done it myself, not knowing the difference ]

AND using jew instead of israelite and never ever mentioning the canaanites who are imposters. And I'll bet, they don't even know who they are! At least the common folk are not aware of it.


If you're not following my cryptic comments, don't worry, I didn't put it all out there yet, I just want to see what develops.

[edit on 3-7-2008 by toasted]