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Originally posted by Al Davison
Ain't no way you're going to be able to say that those Jews really believed that Jesus was the Messiah and they decided to just go ahead and kill the Messiah - you just can't make that one stick and you sure can't making it stick by quoting from the NT. It won't matter if you quote the entire NT in Greek - Jews (and a lot of us non-Jews) just don't believe those stories.
So, if you all wish to continue discussing the Christian perception of Judaism, be my guest. It's just wrong, that's all.
Originally posted by Al Davison
There have been so many threads on this board showing that the Christian Jesus did not fulfill OT prophecy that I am not going to repeat them all - do a little searching and you'll see. The parts that Jesus fulfilled were parts that could have easily been staged if you wanted to "prove" that you were the Messiah. None of the "hard parts" were even close to being fulfilled.
Originally posted by Al Davison
Here's a sample - I can provide dozens more but this should keep you busy for a while: (BTW - the credit for this goes to Shonet - in the Absolute Power of Christianity thread on page 11. She's way more knowledgeable about all of this than am I.)
quote: Or how about all the prohecies in the book of Isaiah and the other prophets.
Yes, how about them? They don't predict G-d becoming a man and then killing himself. They predict the moshaich who will NOT be a G-d or a remnant of G-d.
quote: The prohecies that predict he will be of the lineage of David, he will be born in Bethleham,
Ok one thing at a time. Jesus' father was G-d....not Joseph. G-d doesn't have a tribal heritage. So he would automatically be eliminated as being of the root of Jesse and the tribe of Judah. Moving on to Bethlehem.
But thou, Beth-lehem Ephrathah, which art little to be among the thousands of Judah, out of thee shall one come forth unto Me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth are from of old, from ancient days.
This verse has no reference to the Messiah but it shows that all rulers will come from Bethlehem where David was born...hence whose goings forth are from of old.
quote: AND AT HIS DEATH he will be speared in the side, but none of his bones will be broken, "they will cast lots for his clothes." etc..., etc...
* Survey of the Messianic Prophecies
* The Prophecies in the Books of Moses
* The Prophecies of King David
* The Prophecies of Isaiah
* The Suffering Messiah
* The Resurrection of the Messiah
* The Prophecies of Daniel
* Prophesies of the “Lesser” Prophets
* Awaiting the Coming of the Messiah
* The Fulfillment of the Old Testament Prophecies
* Distorted Notions About the Messiah
* In the Appendix
o Prophecies regarding the Church and New Testament Times
o Two Paschas (Easters)
o The Forthcoming Conversion of the Jewish people to Christ
* The Index of the Messianic Prophecies
o a) by content
o b) by author in chronological order
February 24, 2003 (P.ru) -- Modern Biblical scholars have found a connection between the text of the first chapter of Genesis, the description of the making of the tabernacle (Exodus, ch.25-31, ch.40), and the symbols of Divine Services in the Temple in chapters 24 and 50 in the Book of Joshua the Son of Sirach (P.J. Kearney, "Creation and Liturgy: The P Redaction of Ex 25-40", Zeitschrift fur die Alttestamentliche Wissenschaft 89, 1977; C.H.T. Fletcher-Louis, "The Temple Cosmology of P and Theological Anthropology in the Wisdom of Jesus ben Sira", ed. C. A. Evans, Studies in scripture in early Judaism and Christianity, vol. 8; M. Barker, "Time and Eternity. The World of the Temple", The Month, 1, 2001).
The conformity of the sequence of the making of the tabernacle with seven days of the creation of the world is apparent. In Genesis each of seven God's commands begins with the words: "And God said" (Gen 1:3, 6, 9, 14, 20, 24, 26). In Exodus, chapters 25-31, each of seven speeches of God devoted to the making of the tabernacle, begins with the words: "And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying," (Exo 25:1; 30:11, 17, 22, 34; 31:1, 12). In Exodus chapter 40 seven stages of the making of the tabernacle are divided by the words: as the LORD commanded to Moses (Exo 40:19, 21, 23, 25, 27, 29, 32).
The article offered here to the readers of "Pravoslavie.RU" is an attempt to mark some parallels between the above Bible verses and the Orthodox rites of church consecration. I also tried to emphasize again the truth that the Orthodox Divine services are the best introduction to the Holy Scripture.
It is fitting to understand that on the sixth day of the week, Friday, the Lord was crucified because on the sixth day of the week during Creation, Adam, the first man, was formed.
Furthermore, at the
sixth hour of the day, He was suspended on the Holy Cross because at the sixth hour, tradition tells us, Adam stretched out his hands toward the forbidden tree to eat the fruit and inherited death.
Therefore it was fitting that at the same shattering hour the Old Adam would be created anew. The Lord¹s Crucifixion was in a garden because Adam was deceived in a garden in Paradise. The bitter drink which the Lord tasted on the Cross healed the tasting of Adam. The Holy Cross replaced the tree in Paradise. The slap on the Face signified our awakening from the stupor of sin. The spitting and the
dishonorable behavior toward the Lord makes manifest the value He places on us. The crown of thorns relieved us from the curse surrounding the head of Adam and Eve. The purple cloak replaced the
garment of skin and symbolized the royal garment with which He covers us. The nails indicated our total immobility in our sins. The pierced Side of the Lord, from which our salvation came forth, represented
the side of Adam, from which Eve came forth and out of whom the transgression occurred. The spear removed the fiery sword which guarded Paradise after the disobedience. The water from the Side was
an image of Holy Baptism. The blood and the reed were the means through which the Savior, as though writing in imperial red ink, decreed, as a King from on high, the restoration of the ancient homeland.
It is said that the skull of Adam lay where Christ, as the Head of all, was Crucified, and Adam was baptized through the Blood of Christ, which flowed from Him and down onto Adam¹s skull. It is
called the Place of the Skull because during the Flood the earth expelled the skull of Adam, which rolled around by itself in a circle, and this was viewed as a fearsome sign. The Holy Prophet and
King Solomon, out of respect toward the Forefather, covered it up with many stones. Moreover, the eminent saints say, as is the tradition, that Adam was buried there by an angel. Therefore, where
Adam¹s corpse lay, there Christ stood as the everlasting King, the New Adam, healing by the wood of the Holy Cross the Old Adam who had fallen by the wood of the tree.
It should be noted that on this day there is no celebration of the Divine Liturgy, nor of the Liturgy of the Presanctified Gifts. On this day of the Holy Crucifixion we neither eat nor drink anything according to the words which the Lord spoke to the Pharisees: But the days will come when the Bridegroom will be taken away from them, and then they will fast (Matt. 9:15).
"Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on the earth? I tell you, nay; but rather division: for from henceforth there shall be five in one house (the Church of Christ) be divided, three against two, and two against three" (Luke 12:51-52)
The wedding or marriage feast, where there is always much light, joy and merriment in the presence of the groom and bride, has of old been a symbol of the Kingdom of Heaven. The Old Testament Israel already knew this symbol from the works of King Solomon (see The Proverbs of Solomon, 9:16).
The Pharisees constantly said that the Jews are God's chosen people and that the coming Kingdom of God is intended only for them. The people got so used to this prejudice that it was offensive to them to hear in the parable of the workers in the vineyard words from the Savior threatening to them: The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof (Matthew 21:43). The Lord, the Knower of hearts, of course, knew of His audience's confusion, and in the new parable of those called to the marriage feast He explains to them what is needed in order to become a genuinely chosen man.