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Documents Tell of Brutal Improvisation by GIs

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posted on Aug, 4 2005 @ 06:36 AM
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Good. Personally I'd be quite okay with the Allied Forces taking to suspects with blowtorches and angle-grinders to extract information.

This whole 'We should fight fairly and above reproach' is just plain bull#. Rules of War?? What rules...good on ya for playing by a 'rule book'...but sucks when your enemy ain't playing by the same one. All you end up doing by that is stiffling your own effectiveness.

Its War...its NOT meant to be a Gentlemanly Disagreement.




posted on Aug, 4 2005 @ 07:17 AM
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So, WHY was the Geneva Convention EVER Written then - if the MAIN Force behind the United Nations, to Enforce and Protect this LAWS, is NOT ACTING ACCORDING TO THE ARTICLES IN THE CONVENTION?

It's THIS then:

"LAWS Work for ALL of You - but NOT for US!"

Thats like a Police Officer going Corrupt, and in order to "get the bad guys" breaks just about every law that the "bad guys" broke.

Doesn't that Make him the BAD GUY also?

Or is it just - STREET RULES?

Man, if Every Cop thinked liked that - imagine what kind of City Los Angeles would be?

Reminds me of a Movie called Bad Liutenant from a Director Abel Ferrara.

[edit on 4/8/05 by Souljah]



posted on Aug, 4 2005 @ 07:23 AM
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Yup...sounds all well and good on the surface...but I think that if it were my country that suffered at the hands of terrorists...if it was my countrymen/friends/family coming home in bodybags...well, think I'd take that rulebook and use it as a blunt heavy weapon to smack the heck outa any prisoners captured.



posted on Aug, 4 2005 @ 08:26 AM
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The Geneva conention was written and signed by multiple nations for one purpose and one purpose only: to ensure that POWs were to be treated humanely and not to be used as bargaining chips or weapons of psychological warfare.

When your enemy treats your countrymen (both military and innocent civilians) no better than cattle in a slaughtershouse, and then films their denegrations for broadcasts back to us so that we can "hear their message", then they, by their own actions, have thrown away any last shred of a claim to having Geneva Convention protections.

When our enemy captures our uniformed troops, and then proceeds to abuse them and submit them to summary executions, while being filmed for the sole purpose of propaganda and demoralization of our troops, then I say we give no quarter, show no military courtesies, and treat them like the murdering bandits and thugs that they are.

The Geneva Conventions were also based upon respect, like it or not. British military officers may have despised their Nazi counterparts during WWII, and vice versa. American soldiers hated and never understood the Japanese Imperial Soldier. But underlying that dislike their was still a level of respect, based upon a level of open and established military customs, traditions, and courtesies. Even when atrocities were committed on sides, the other side usually did not retaliate, because there was always a feeling that these atrocities were not either sanctioned by the high command, or were the actions of rogue commanders. Unfortunately, our enemies in the Middle East proclaim with glee that our deaths, including the deaths of our captured servicemen, are their objectives.

It is completely illogical to show these people any mercy. They will never reciprocate, they believe that they are acting in God's best interests, and they mock us for showing them just this kind of weakness.

In some ways, their dedication and steadfastness to their cause, however evil and misguided, is admirable. They do not fear us and are happy to go to their deaths fighting us, even if they have everything to lose. Which is all the more reason we must exterminate them. They are mindless and cannot be reasons with, negotiated with, or bargained with. We must treat them as an infestation of deadly pests. We have blundered into a hornets nest - and the last thing we need to do is start worrying about wether or not we should slap away the wasps that are swarming around our head and stinging us.........



posted on Aug, 4 2005 @ 08:33 AM
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Pyros.

Well written post.
I couldn't agree more.

Spacemunkey



posted on Aug, 4 2005 @ 08:50 AM
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Originally posted by Pyros
The Geneva conention was written and signed by multiple nations for one purpose and one purpose only: to ensure that POWs were to be treated humanely and not to be used as bargaining chips or weapons of psychological warfare.

But Apperently SOME PEOPLE can go Above the Laws and Articles in this Convention and are called Civilized, and other are called murdering bandits.

Such Hypochrisy - its much too Obvious that you yet another Die Hard Supporter of the Illegal Iraq Invasion.



When your enemy treats your countrymen (both military and innocent civilians) no better than cattle in a slaughtershouse, and then films their denegrations for broadcasts back to us so that we can "hear their message", then they, by their own actions, have thrown away any last shred of a claim to having Geneva Convention protections.

So the Action is here to Do the Same or Worse to them also?

That is a "Civilized Answer" for You?

Aren't you then the same Murdering Bandit?

"He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Nietzche



When our enemy captures our uniformed troops, and then proceeds to abuse them and submit them to summary executions, while being filmed for the sole purpose of propaganda and demoralization of our troops, then I say we give no quarter, show no military courtesies, and treat them like the murdering bandits and thugs that they are.

I guess that Fighting Fire with Fire works in some Controlled Enviroments - in this Case, it DOESN'T.

You wan't to Stop the Circle of Violence that has been Started - act Civilized, for that Your COUNTRY and Your PRESIDENT Claims you are.

"What is done out of love always takes place beyond good and evil." Nietzche



The Geneva Conventions were also based upon respect, like it or not. British military officers may have despised their Nazi counterparts during WWII, and vice versa. American soldiers hated and never understood the Japanese Imperial Soldier. But underlying that dislike their was still a level of respect, based upon a level of open and established military customs, traditions, and courtesies. Even when atrocities were committed on sides, the other side usually did not retaliate, because there was always a feeling that these atrocities were not either sanctioned by the high command, or were the actions of rogue commanders. Unfortunately, our enemies in the Middle East proclaim with glee that our deaths, including the deaths of our captured servicemen, are their objectives.

RESPECT?

And where is that RESPECT Today when talking about Iraqi POW's or just about ANYBODY that was Captured and Interrogated - Guilty or Not - in the Gitmo's Around the World?



It is completely illogical to show these people any mercy. They will never reciprocate, they believe that they are acting in God's best interests, and they mock us for showing them just this kind of weakness.

Expect NO MERCY in Return.



In some ways, their dedication and steadfastness to their cause, however evil and misguided, is admirable. They do not fear us and are happy to go to their deaths fighting us, even if they have everything to lose. Which is all the more reason we must exterminate them. They are mindless and cannot be reasons with, negotiated with, or bargained with. We must treat them as an infestation of deadly pests. We have blundered into a hornets nest - and the last thing we need to do is start worrying about wether or not we should slap away the wasps that are swarming around our head and stinging us.........

Exterminate Them?

Are you a Fan of Governer Schwarzenneger?

"We must treat them as an Infestation of Deadly Pests"?

Nice Words I must say.

The only thing I agree with you is that, indeed you have Stirred the Hornets Nest and you are also not doing a very good job "calming these hornets down" - but are doing quite the Opposite with your Absolute Philosophy like "Exterminate them like the Infestation of Deadly Pests that they are!"

Great Speech! Have you considered a Neo-Con Political Career? Now its the time!



posted on Aug, 4 2005 @ 10:48 AM
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Souljah,

The simple answer is...yes. We must be brutal. We must stoop to their level. We must, in this case, become uncivilized.

"Civilized" is a relative term, anyways, and the definition of "civilized" varies from culture to culture. We are certainly "uncivilized" in the eyes of most radical Muslims, just as we perceive them to be "uncivilized" barbarians who oppress their women, engage in slave trade, and laugh at the Jeffersonian concept of democracy.

We are engaged in a conflict. The reasons for this conflict are many, and they are often both obvious and subtle. But the reasons for this conflict are unimportant. The blame game is pointless at this point, becasue we are living in the here and now, not in the past. When you are in a fistfight, does it really matter who is responsible for starting the fight? NO. What matters is winning the fight and not getting your face bashed in! There will be plenty of time later for reflection, accusations, and the distribution of blame and responsibility. But what is important right now is winning the fight, no matter what your definition of victory might be.

You speak of the "circle of violence that has been started" (presumably by us) and that it must be broken. Who do you think is more likely to break this circle? What is a more likely scenario?

a) The US will have a change in political landscape, and the new political powers will withdraw US forces from Iraq and Aghanistan.

or

b) Radical Wahabbist Muslim terrorists, financed by rich conservative Arab nations, will suddenly decide that the Americans are "a bunch of swell guys after all", not out to corrupt our youth, rape or women, and steal our land. Western culture is to be embraced, and tolerance for other religions and cultures is universally accepted.

I am willing to bet that A) is more likely than B), and that even IF A) were to be implemented (almost a certainty at some point), the people of B) will never change their beliefs, which is a cult of death, oppression, and ignorance.

Oh, and BTW, you don't have a clue about my political positions and beliefs, despite the fact that I have repeatedly stated them in other threads.

I am a registered democrat, living in the most left-wing state in the union (Massachusetts), working in the 2nd-most liberal city in the nation (Cambridge, MA). I am represented by and have voted for both Senators Kerry and Kennedy, and my representative in Congress in non other than Barney Frank, which rounds out the right-wing triumverate of left-wing whipping boys. I drive by anti-war demonstrations almost every week. I have never supported this war, nor have I ever voted for either Bush, and I would never consider myself a "NeoCon".

But that doen't make me an anti-war blowhard who all too easily writes off the death and suffering or our servicemen who are doing a noble and dirty job, despite the geopolitical ramifications and reasons, or the bungling of the buffoons who sent them there. Nor will I ever expend a shred of sympathy or compassion for those committed to elimate our way of life. Nobody cares about your fantasy-world "NeoCon" conspiricy theories, or your anti-Bush politi-spam. And believe me, amost nobody cares about the existential ramblings for Friedrich Nietzsche anymore, unless your are some avant-garde artist-type from the continent.........

You need to get a grip. If there are bad things happening to Iraqis and Al Qaeda personnel in our custody, it is not because Bush and his cronies have secretly authorized abuse of captives. There is no trickle down agenda, or "look the other way" culture in our military. The mere fact that we are aware of these facts validates that point. Our soldiers are only human, and under tremendous stress, and considering the sheer tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of Iraqi, Afghani, and Al Qaeda prisoners we have taken in the past 15 years, I consider the number of abuse cases to be exceptionally small.

What we are seeing are the external side effects that are the result of our radical Islamic enemy's decision to throw away our "civilized" warfighting rulebook. Fine. They want to fight by the rules they are accustomed to, then so will we. Jihad it is. Death to the Wahabbi infidels. Off with their heads...........



posted on Aug, 4 2005 @ 11:42 AM
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Pyros,

You are probably the First that has Admited that - "YES, we are Acting Non-Civilized". Everybody else is just saying, "Beat'em, Kick'em, they deserve it anyway!" I am glad you are actually being Honest.

What surprised me is that you don't seem to care for the Reasons for this War - for me that is the Fundamental reason for this Endless Circle of Violence, which has been started, and I really have no idea how it will be stopped. Saddest part of this Story is, that some people actually Profit from this Scenario and they kind of don't care about the countless victims of this war, civilian or military. To them this is all just big business, big money, good stocks on the market. Thats why "this Fight Started".

Radical Wahabbist Muslim terrorists are really angry and I agree that they will be very difficult to calm down. But you talk about cult of death, oppression, and ignorance. Guess what, have you ever heard about the Fraternity called Skull & Bones? Do you think they Care about anything but exactly those 3 words you mentioned? Opium Wars? JFK Assassination? I think that You have to be Afraid of THIS guys that call themselves the Death Cult and seek Roots in German Nazism.

But I am sorry for my Hasty Response to your Political positions and beliefs - I Humbly Apologize for my Error.

But I am sad that, as you mentioned in your Answer Nobody cares about your fantasy-world "NeoCon" conspiricy theories, or your anti-Bush politi-spam. Great. Thats exactly what these people wan't - Nobody to Care, while they Tear this Planet Apart. I guess they are doing Damn Fine so far and apparently the Only Guys who care are actually Non-American. Now, how strange is that?

Sadly, Jihad it is then - and even if you don't belive an care for the existential ramblings for Friedrich Nietzsche, The Abyss Will Gate Back At You Soone or Later....

That is Natural Law - and Man can not go Against NATURE.

He can Try - but he will also Fail Miserably trying.



posted on Aug, 5 2005 @ 08:45 AM
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This story really doesn't give any definitive proof
about American torture. It alleges that Americans
left the prisoner in custody of Iraqi paramilitaries
who beat him. Then it says an American had him
crawl into a sleeping bag and then went to work
on him. What is "went to work on him"?

It also alleges that he was beaten by a special
forces team and by other government employees
two days earlier according to a secret Army memo
dated May 10, 2004. Were these other government
employees the Iraqi paramilitaries? If they had access to
such memo, why not just quote it? Why not show a photo
of this secret memo, that you have access to? Would
you make secret memos that implicated yourself in
criminal activity or would you keep it quiet?
Lets beat the crap out of this prisoner and then
make a memo about it, so we can get caught. Are
you kidding me?

Most of the prisoner photos I have seen do not
impress me very much in so far as torture goes.

A picture of a man with underwear on his head.
A picture of a naked man with a young woman making
fun of his honker. A picture of a couple naked
guys on the floor. Where are the rubber hoses
and other instruments of pain?

I went through prisoner training once upon a time
and was put into simulated prisoner environment
and underwent interrogation during which some
psychological tricks were used against us. I was
woke up during the night repeatedly, given a
little sleep deprivation, a lot of verbal threats
and harassments. One trick used was to stand a
prisoner up blindfolded naked and interrogated.
While this went on some remarks were made about
is his male organ not being very impressive.
Mental tricks like these that put pressure on the
psyche were looked upon as being fair, after all
we even did them to our own troops while under
going the training. I don't remember any of the
people undergoing this training getting too
upset about any of it. I wonder why everyone
is so concerned about hurting the poor Iraqi
feelings, using some of these tricks. You can
tie a naked man to a chair and wave a whip in
front of him and induce a lot of mental pressure
and never touch him. Is this torture or just
applying a lot of mental tricks and pressure?

You can have two prisoners in a room, one of
them actually a shill. Guards come in and
take the shill into an accompanying room
and make a lot of noise hitting the wall with
a paddle while the shill screams his brains
out. Then you can come back into the room
and get the real prisoner, take him into the
room, undress him, tie him to a chair, and
waive a whip in front of him. At this point
the guys mouth usually goes into high gear
and he gives his whole life's story. Was this
mental pressure or torture? On the other hand
you can tied a guy up and then cut his head
off while video taping it. This is what the
enemy has done. Which one of these two examples
is actual prisoner abuse and which one is just
sort of sneaky? I know which one I would
rather endure, and I have already endured
that one, while undergoing training. I didn't
think it was that big of a deal.

We don't know what went on with the above
interrogation, but I suspect the Americans
handled it humane but sneaky. Did they
turn the guy over to Iraqis? Who knows,
but the article said they did. If they
did that, was it Iraqis doing the abuse
or Americans. If they went to the trouble
to turn the guy over to Iraqis so that
American hands were clean, then what does
this give evidence of? It gives evidence
that Americans are going to take measures
not to be implicated in applying torture.
If they are taking these measures to insure
that no evidence occurs implicating Americans
then why would they make up secret memos
confessing? Very suspicious to me, this
story.



posted on Aug, 5 2005 @ 08:51 AM
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John McCain fueded with Bill O'Reilly about this. McCain's claim is that torture does not work. He may know something about that. If we as America take the moral high ground , then thats what we need to do. You can not fight terror with terror. We need to set the example, otherwise we are barbarians too. Is that what you really want?



posted on Aug, 5 2005 @ 08:52 AM
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Major Cee,

I will post this Just for You Again, to see how the CIVILIZED Armed Forces Treat their Prisoners of War, maybe you have missed it:



# (Art 13): "Prisoners of war must at all times be humanely treated."

# (Art 13): "...Prisoners of war must at all times be protected, particularly against acts of violence or intimidation and against insults and public curiosity."

# (Art 17): "No physical or mental torture, nor any other form of coercion, may be inflicted on prisoners of war to secure from them information of any kind whatever. Prisoners of war who refuse to answer may not be threatened, insulted or exposed to unpleasant or disadvantageous treatment of any kind."

# (Art 25): "Prisoners of war shall be quartered under conditions as favourable as those for the forces of the Detaining Power who are billeted in the same area."

# (Art 27): "Clothing, underwear and footwear shall be supplied to prisoners of war"

# (Art 33): "Members of the medical personnel and chaplains while retained by the Detaining Power with a view to assisting prisoners of war, shall not be considered as prisoners of war. They shall, however, receive as a minimum the benefits and protection of the present Convention, and shall also be granted all facilities necessary to provide for the medical care of, and religious ministration to prisoners of war."

# (Art 39): "Prisoners of war, with the exception of officers, must salute and show to all officers of the Detaining Power the external marks of respect provided for by the regulations applying in their own forces."

# (Art 42): "The use of weapons against prisoners of war, especially against those who are escaping or attempting to escape, shall constitute an extreme measure, which shall always be preceded by warnings appropriate to the circumstances."

(Art 88): "Officers, non-commissioned officers and men who are prisoners of war undergoing a disciplinary or judicial punishment, shall not be subjected to more severe treatment than that applied in respect of the same punishment to members of the armed forces of the Detaining Power of equivalent rank."


And if you don't Find the Photos form Abu Gharib and Guantanamo Abusive and basicly images of Torture, then sorry Sir, you are Blinded and Led to belive that it's ALLRIGHT to do this stuff to the Prisoners of War - which have RIGHTS as Human Beings.

Maybe you didn't see the same Photos that I have....

[edit on 5/8/05 by Souljah]

[edit on 5/8/05 by Souljah]



posted on Aug, 5 2005 @ 09:27 AM
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I still don't get the point on all the prisoner abuse. I have
not seen any photographs of prisoners being whipped or
beaten. Some guy naked with underwear on his head may
be torture to some, but not me. I have known personally
several Americans that were prisoners and they would have
wellcomed having underwear put on their heads compared
to what happened to them. I really have no problem with
using sneaky tricks that imply to the prisoner that he is
going to undergo torture. I believe you can tie them up,
wave whips in front of them etc. I believe you can even
have them take their clothes off, photograph them and
threaten to show the pictures to their family. So sue me, if
you don't like it.

By the way when I underwent prisoner training it was
taught that torture did not work all that well just as
McCain says, it was believed that the threat of torture and
other tricks were more effective. If this has been our belief
for some time, why would we be torturing people?

[edit on 5-8-2005 by MajorCee]

[edit on 5-8-2005 by MajorCee]



posted on Aug, 5 2005 @ 09:37 AM
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WHY do we NEED to go THROUGH this everytime?

You just "See" the Picture you want to "See".

billandkent.com...

And there is "Some Evidence" for You:



Abduction
Barbed wire, forced to walk barefoot on
Blindfolding
"Burking" – hand over detainee’s mouth/nose to prevent breathing
Cell extraction, brutal/punitive use of
Chemical/pepper spray, misuse of
Cigarette burns
Claustrophia-inducing techniques, e.g. tied headfirst in sleeping bag, shut in lockers
Death threats
Dietary manipulation
Dogs used to threaten and intimidate
Dousing in cold water
Electric shocks, threats of electric shocks
Exposure to weather and temperature extremes, especially via air-conditioning
Flags, wrapped in Israeli or US flags during or prior to interrogation
Food and water deprivation
Forced shaving, ie of head, body or facial hair
Forcible injections, including with unidentified substances
Ground, forced to lie on bare ground while agents stand on back or back of legs
Hooding
Hostage-taking, i.e. individuals detained to force surrender of relatives
Humiliation, eg forced crawling, forced to make animal noises, being urinated upon.
Immersion in water to induce perception of drowning
Incommunicado detention
Induced perception of suffocation or asyphxiation
Light deprivation
Loud music, noise, yelling
Mock execution
Photography and videoing as humiliation
Physical assault, eg punching, kicking, beatings with hands, hose, batons, guns, etc
Physical exercise to the point of exhaustion, e.g. "ups and downs", carrying rocks
Piling, i.e. detainee is sat on or jumped on by one or more people ("dog/pig pile")
Prolonged interrogations, eg 20 hours
Racial and religious taunts, humiliation
Relatives, denial of access to, excessive censorship of communications with
Religious intolerance, eg disrespect for Koran, religious rituals
Secret detention
Secret transfer
Sensory deprivation
Sexual humiliation
Sexual assault
Shackles and handcuffs, excessive and cruel use of. Includes "short shackling"
Sleep adjustment
Sleep deprivation
Solitary confinement for prolonged periods, eg months or more than a year
Stress positions, eg prolonged forced kneeling and standing
Stripping, nudity, excessive or humiliating use of
Strip searches, excessive or humiliating use of
Strobe lighting
Suspension, with use of handcuffs/shackles
Threat of rape
Threats of reprisals against relatives
Threat of transfer to third country to inspire fear of torture or death
Threat of transfer to Guantánamo
Threats of torture or ill-treatment
Twenty-four hour bright lighting
Withdrawal of "comfort items", including religious items
Withholding of information, e.g. not telling detainee where he is
Withholding of medication
Withholding of toilet facilities, leading to defecation and urination in clothing

web.amnesty.org...

Want to Try to Deny everyone of those Abuses?


PS: and its evidenCe not evidenSe.

[edit on 5/8/05 by Souljah]



posted on Aug, 5 2005 @ 10:03 AM
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Soul, Sad as it is to say, i often wish people like you would face these savages, All that BS cry baby crap you just typed would go right out the door when you had a rusty knife to your throat.



posted on Aug, 5 2005 @ 10:04 AM
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Anyone who is denying that torture has taken place under US sanction since the release of the Taguba report must have been living in a cave, on mars, with their fingers in their ears this whole time. 60% of the prisoners at Abu Ghraib for instance, "did not pose a threat to society," according to the report. Further, it's not just limited to those oh-so-funny pictures of most-probably-not-a-threat-to-society Iraqis with panties on their heads...



According to Donald Rumsfeld, many more pictures and videotapes of the abuse at Abu Ghraib exist.

New photos and videos revealed by the Pentagon to lawmakers in a private viewing on the 12th of May showed attack dogs snarling at cowing prisoners, Iraqi women forced to expose their breasts, and naked prisoners forced to have sex with each other, the lawmakers revealed.

Seymour Hersh, an investigative journalist with The New Yorker, said there are tapes of American soldiers sodomizing Iraqi boys, and that these tapes are being held by the Bush administration.
...

Senator Lindsey Graham (Republican, South Carolina) has been quoted as saying, "The American public needs to understand we're talking about rape and murder here," after hearing testimony from Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld.

Source:
Wikipedia

While I agree and disagree with some of what has been said by all sides in this thread, make no mistake about one thing- the tortures being implemented by the Americans are not slight in any way.

Finally, many people here are displaying ignorance of what is necessary to fight terror. Let me spell it out:

It is not about "morals" or "international law" or "right or wrong."

It is about popular support, and denying the same to your enemy. As Americans, do you really think we are doing this if we play by the same rules as our enemy? The people who will decide the outcome of the "War on Terror" are not people who are already terrorists themselves. They are the millions and millions of "undecided", ordinary people, who read about U.S. tortures every day, right next to tales of fundamentalist atrocities.



"The torture? A more serious blow to the United States than September 11 (attacks). Except that the blow was not inflicted by terrorists but by Americans against themselves." — Archbishop Giovanni Lajolo, foreign minister of The Vatican


-koji K.

[edit on 5-8-2005 by koji_K]



posted on Aug, 5 2005 @ 10:30 AM
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Souljah... You know by now, that i agree with you on the false reasons for the war, and the obvious ploy to set iraq as the battleground to fight terrorists instead of this country.
But this is all done...
Would we rather draw them onto our soil to fight them? not me... I thank the military for the "sacrifice" they are offering by doing the jobs they do... they have it tough as anyone... and they are also not being given the best guidance (as in the terrorist torture pics) on how to do that job...
or the best equipment (having to steal parts from the iraqis to supply the squads)

of course our leaders bad choices are what put them there, but now we have to pour thru and get the job done to some end...
(one marine said they are being told they can come home when the iraqi crime rate hits zero...HAH)

in short, the soldiers are doing the best they can... sometimes the best involves stealing iraqi vehicles and shooting suspects on sight... sometimes it involves taking possesion of someones house, because it makes the best staging area...

War is a demon bitch on PMS without any pot... it sucks... in a bad way...

but as to the actions of our guys that are reprehensible... it is a neccessary evil that has been done (like it or not) during EVERY war we have partaken in (on both sides). We usually do not hear about it though... so noone has ever had the opportunity to complain like we can now...
I know this is the ultimate copout (well, it isn't any different that they way the world has always done it) but it is fact...

I do see a vision of a better way... the way it is supposed to be... and with the advent of the internet, perhaps this will be the last wrong war we ever see...

I do hope you see that there was eventually going to be a struggle with extremists... all we did was pick the place... instead of wait for them to pick it...

this is all info that the government would not usually expect the public to understand, so instead they give us the fluffy feel good reasons, that smart aware people like you, see right thru...
We (the non sheeples) now have the burden of maturely accepting the real truth and dealing with it... (the truth they wouldn't tell, but still matters)

keep the faith, and keep your vision of peace... it will be neccessary as soon as the war is won... (and could be one of the reasons it is)



posted on Aug, 5 2005 @ 11:37 AM
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I don't deny that there was prisoner abuse.
This is apparent from the court martials
that resulted. That doesn't mean that every
accusation about prisoner abuse is true,
and I think the original post here is
highly suspect, in this regard. Also
note the fact that the US did take
legal action, hardly the action of a
country supporting prisoner abuse.
Also I suspect that most photos we have
seen don't tell an accurate story.
None of them give the full story and
leave everything to the imagination.
Most of the photos impressed me more as
something like college pranks than torture.
If you waive whips in front of someone
or bring a growling dog close, are you
torturing, or just mentally conditioning
the prisoner? Everyone can come to their
own opinion, but I suspect that the US
treatment of prisoners is much better than
some would have us believe. Pictures of
someone beat up don't even tell the whole
story. It doesn't show how or why he was beat
up. One that comes to mind here is that
navy pilot that Iraq captured in Gulf war
I. He had a bunch of bruises around the
face. Everyone just knew he was beaten.
In fact the bruises came from his ejection,
the wind blast hit his face at 600 miles
an hour on ejection. A photo of someone
with a hood on their face doesn't show
how long he endured it. Was it 24 hours?
Was it five minutes getting him ready for
interrogation? Was it good cop, bad cop.
Bad cop ties him up, puts on the hood,
good cop rescues him, kicks the bad cop
out after backhanding him, apoligizes to
prisoner and begs forgiveness, gives prisoner
cigarettes pats him on the back and says, listen
pard, I can save you from this bad guy if
you just give me answers. These photos
tell none of this. The best evidence
was the actual convictions of some people
by US courts martial. That should tell
you something of official and condoned
US policy. Anyway my questioning on the
accuracy of the first post was covered in
my post and I believe it was a legitimate
questioning. I don't know what happened
and neither does anyone else here. I'm
not ready to convict anyone on that post
either then or now.



[edit on 5-8-2005 by MajorCee]



posted on Aug, 5 2005 @ 01:23 PM
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First of all, as northwolf pointed out, information that has been obtained from torturing is highly unreliable, because those that get tortured will basicly tell you what you want to hear, in order for you to stop torturing them.

Secondly, when US forces torture and kill muslims (some that may not even be extremists!) it "justifies" the terrorists to kill and torture Americans, it also fuels the hate of muslims towards America, when you torture and kill a muslim, tens of muslims will join the extremists, so you're basicly helping them out!
When terrorists kill and torture Americans or other westerners, it "justifies" US and western forces to kill and torture muslims, here it also fuels the hate of westerners towards the extremists and even the general muslim population!
Unless you didn't notice by now, this will go around in a loop. So basicly someone has got to stop.
My point being, it would be best to stop the torturing and be civilized, this would show the muslims how brutal and barbaric murderers these terrorists actually are, instead of creating the misconception that they are merely retaliating against the US forces because they have tortured and killed muslims.

Thirdly, killing and torturing is morally and ethically WRONG!

Fourthly, the US is breaking their own rules (Geneva Convention) and expecting others to obey them. Thankfully most others are!



posted on Aug, 5 2005 @ 02:30 PM
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Originally posted by C0le
Soul, Sad as it is to say, i often wish people like you would face these savages, All that BS cry baby crap you just typed would go right out the door when you had a rusty knife to your throat.
Wake up! it's the government that carries out the terror attacks! We just found out that the mastermind of the London attacks was an MI-6 asset.



posted on Aug, 5 2005 @ 02:35 PM
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Originally posted by skippytjc
Whatever makes them talk is ok with me. I have said this before, and I have a feeling I will need to say it again:

I personally know more Americans that have been killed or affected by an Extreme Islamic than I know extreme Islamics that have been beaten or treated badly by Americans.

Until that balance changes, my government has my 100% support to treat terror suspects however they see fit.
How can anyone take your argument seriously? With over 6 billion people in the world you form your opinions based only upon the expeirences of those you have come into contact with? This is a total cop out argument.



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