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Documents Tell of Brutal Improvisation by GIs

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posted on Aug, 3 2005 @ 01:08 PM
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Interrogated General's Sleeping-Bag Death, CIA's Use of Secret Iraqi Squad Are Among Details



Iraqi Maj. Gen. Abed Hamed Mowhoush was being stubborn with his American captors, and a series of intense beatings and creative interrogation tactics were not enough to break his will. On the morning of Nov. 26, 2003, a U.S. Army interrogator and a military guard grabbed a green sleeping bag, stuffed Mowhoush inside, wrapped him in an electrical cord, laid him on the floor and began to go to work. Again.

It was inside the sleeping bag that the 56-year-old detainee took his last breath through broken ribs, lying on the floor beneath a U.S. soldier in Interrogation Room 6 in the western Iraqi desert. Two days before, a secret CIA-sponsored group of Iraqi paramilitaries, working with Army interrogators, had beaten Mowhoush nearly senseless, using fists, a club and a rubber hose, according to classified documents.

The sleeping bag was the idea of a soldier who remembered how his older brother used to force him into one, and how scared and vulnerable it made him feel. Senior officers in charge of the facility near the Syrian border believed that such "claustrophobic techniques" were approved ways to gain information from detainees, part of what military regulations refer to as a "fear up" tactic, according to military court documents.

The Armed Forces Institute of Pathology's standard "Autopsy Examination Report" of Mowhoush's death was manipulated to avoid references to the CIA. In contrast to the other autopsy reports of suspicious detainee deaths released by the Army, Mowhoush's name is redacted and under "Circumstances of Death," the form says: "This Iraqi [redacted] died while in U.S. custody. The details surrounding the circumstances at the time of death are classified."

William Cassara, who represents Williams, cited Mowhoush's brutal encounters in the days before he died as possibly leading to his death. He said Williams, who was not trained in interrogation tactics, had little to do with the case.

"The interrogation techniques were known and were approved of by the upper echelons of command of the 3rd ACR," Cassara said in a news conference. "They believed, and still do, that they were appropriate and proper."

"Although the investigation indicates the death was directly related to the non-standard interrogation methods employed on 26 NOV, the circumstances surrounding the death are further complicated due to Mowhoush being interrogated and reportedly beaten by members of a Special Forces team and other government agency (OGA) employees two days earlier," said a secret Army memo dated May 10, 2004.

Source:
Washington Post

It really doesn't take long to come upon yet ANOTHER Story about Abuse and Torture in US Military Prison Camps.

And the stories are just getting more violent and more mysterious.

The Military is pushing the Civil Population to its limits to test and to see how far they can go and how far they can push this thing called "War on Terror".

Have You Seen Enough?

Or do You Want More?




posted on Aug, 3 2005 @ 01:16 PM
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Whatever makes them talk is ok with me. I have said this before, and I have a feeling I will need to say it again:

I personally know more Americans that have been killed or affected by an Extreme Islamic than I know extreme Islamics that have been beaten or treated badly by Americans.

Until that balance changes, my government has my 100% support to treat terror suspects however they see fit.



posted on Aug, 3 2005 @ 01:20 PM
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Originally posted by skippytjc
I personally know more Americans that have been killed or affected by an Extreme Islamic than I know extreme Islamics that have been beaten or treated badly by Americans.

Question:

How MANY Extreme Islamics Do You know at all?




posted on Aug, 3 2005 @ 01:27 PM
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Originally posted by skippytjc
Whatever makes them talk is ok with me. I have said this before, and I have a feeling I will need to say it again:

I personally know more Americans that have been killed or affected by an Extreme Islamic than I know extreme Islamics that have been beaten or treated badly by Americans.

Until that balance changes, my government has my 100% support to treat terror suspects however they see fit.



Seems reasonable to me....I mean American lives are at stake and sometimes war can be a nasty business. Its not like America is the only one that does this.

I guess that guy should have wished for a beheading.


I think in this case they might have went to far, and now that the press has it, more Americans will die because of it. Smooth move exlax.


Plus, what PROOF is there? Could this be another Bush bash attempt?



posted on Aug, 3 2005 @ 01:27 PM
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Originally posted by skippytjc
I personally know more Americans that have been killed or affected by an Extreme Islamic than I know extreme Islamics that have been beaten or treated badly by Americans.


They're not so extreme once you sit down with them and fire up the ajami. You should try it some time.

Out of curiousity Skippy, how many "extreme islamics that have been beaten or treated badly by Americans" do you personally know?

Peace



posted on Aug, 3 2005 @ 01:42 PM
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I Wonder how the Word "CIVILIZED" can be used in this kind of Cases?

Civilized West - or just Misinformed Public?



posted on Aug, 3 2005 @ 02:12 PM
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skippy:

I personally know more Americans that have been killed or affected by an Extreme Islamic than I know extreme Islamics that have been beaten or treated badly by Americans.

Until that balance changes, my government has my 100% support to treat terror suspects however they see fit.


Has your country been more negatively affected by your average Middle Eastern Muslim country's foreign policy, or has your average Middle Eastern Muslim country been more negatively affected by the United States' foreign policy? Think before you answer that.

These people being beaten and tortured to death are NOT proven to be "Extreme Islamics". They have not been charged with anything, the details of their capture is classified, and their deaths often are misreported by the military.

Every single aspect of these stories inflames anti-American sentiment in the Muslim world (heck, most of the rest of the world), and the only way to stop it is to stop arbitrarily detaining people and torturing them to death. That's the only way to fix this. Give them all fair trials and incarcerate them as you would any other foreign fighter. In jail is in jail, whether you're there legally or illegally, so make it legal.


Although Mowhoush's death certificate lists his cause of death as "asphyxia due to smothering and chest compression," the Dec. 2, 2003, autopsy, quoted in classified documents and released with redactions, showed that Mowhoush had "contusions and abrasions with pattern impressions" over much of his body, and six fractured ribs. Investigators believed a "long straight-edge instrument" was used on Mowhoush, as well as an "object like the end of an M-16" rifle.


Wanna put down in writing that you condone the fatal beating by your own troops of a 56 year old unarmed man tied up in a sleeping bag while in detention? The same guys who might be gassing up their cars next to you when they are home on leave?


edsinger:

I mean American lives are at stake and sometimes war can be a nasty business


American military lives? Civilian lives? Please explain what you mean. This man was a threat to US civilian lives? Here:


The U.S. military initially told reporters that Mowhoush had been captured during a raid. In reality, he had walked into the Forward Operating Base "Tiger" in Qaim on Nov. 10, 2003, hoping to speak with U.S. commanders to secure the release of his sons, who had been arrested in raids 11 days earlier.


This guy was not captured slitting the throats of children, he walked in to try and get his sons out.


The general, they believed, had been a high-ranking official in Saddam Hussein's Republican Guard and a key supporter of the insurgency in northwestern Iraq. Mowhoush was one of a few generals whom Hussein had given "execution authority," U.S. commanders believed, meaning that he could execute someone on sight, and he had been notorious among Shiites in southern Iraq for brutality


The key words there, and it is used twice to underscore it, is believed. He was believed to be.


"When he didn't answer or provided an answer that they didn't like, at first [redacted] would slap Mowhoush, and then after a few slaps, it turned into punches," Ryan testified. "And then from punches, it turned into [redacted] using a piece of hose."

"The indig were hitting the detainee with fists, a club and a length of rubber hose," according to classified investigative records.

Soldiers heard Mowhoush "being beaten with a hard object" and heard him "screaming" from down the hall, according to the Jan. 18, 2004, provost marshal's report. The report said four Army guards had to carry Mowhoush back to his cell.


So you too are saying that this is all cool? Savagely beating a man to death and in doing so somehow making you safer?

I'm actually stunned.



posted on Aug, 3 2005 @ 02:22 PM
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This sounds like crap made up by the washington post, secret memo this and that, well there not so secret if the washington post can get their paws on it is it? does it make sense for the US army to allow 'secret documents' to go to reporters?


Anyway, im with skippy, whatever makes them talk or reduces the threat.



posted on Aug, 3 2005 @ 02:25 PM
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Originally posted by Dr Love
Out of curiousity Skippy, how many "extreme islamics that have been beaten or treated badly by Americans" do you personally know?

Peace


I glad you asked: Zero.

I have never personally met any Islamic terrorists who have been abused by the USA (to my knowledge), and I am quite happy about it. I am alive arent I?

But I know a half dozen or so Americans who have been SEVERLY effected by Islamic extremists actions. And thats why I feel the way I do.

I can get on my phone and have a conversation with people I know about their experience. That is something that can touch me personally. I have yet to learn about somebody I know being a victim of US abuse as a detainee or captured combatant suspected of being a terrorist.

As long as this is the case, my government can take whatever measures they want to to secure me and my family. Even if it means being aggressive with people suspected of terrorism.

Look, things arent so nice and cuddly out there. You cant street fight with boxing gloves on...Sometimes you cant afford to be nice...And you know what? They arent that nice to us..



[edit on 3-8-2005 by skippytjc]



posted on Aug, 3 2005 @ 02:25 PM
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Originally posted by XphilesPhan
This sounds like crap made up by the washington post, secret memo this and that, well there not so secret if the washington post can get their paws on it is it? does it make sense for the US army to allow 'secret documents' to go to reporters?

Yeah Ofcourse its "Crap" for you, if it's Against the Military.

And who said Secret Documents can't become Public for one reason or another?

Maybe an Officer from the Army that had 'nuff of this "BEATING UP TO TILL DEATH CRAP" Leaked? Who knows? Do you?



Anyway, im with skippy, whatever makes them talk or reduces the threat.

Becareful of the word "WHATEVER" - maybe the General that Ordered this Abusement and Torture used that Word also. Look where that has brought his Core and his Country.

[edit on 3/8/05 by Souljah]



posted on Aug, 3 2005 @ 02:33 PM
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Originally posted by Souljah
Anyway, im with skippy, whatever makes them talk or reduces the threat.

Becareful of the word "WHATEVER" - maybe the General that Ordered this Abusement and Torture used that Word also. Look where that has brought his Core and his Country.

[edit on 3/8/05 by Souljah]


Souljah, I really wish you could sit and chat with some of the Westoners who have been held by the Islamic Extremists. But I am afraid that wont be possible, as they all have been beheaded or shot. Im sorry, what were you saying about these terrorist being treated poorly?

[edit on 3-8-2005 by skippytjc]



posted on Aug, 3 2005 @ 02:45 PM
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I read the article. I stopped reading when I got to the part that stated:

"Mowhoush had been visited by Hussein at his home in Sadah in October 2003 "to discuss, among other undisclosed issues, a bounty of US $10,000 to anyone who video-taped themselves attacking coalition forces," according to a Defense Intelligence Agency report".

As far as I am concerned, they messed up in killing him. This guy got off too easy.

Beside, this is old news being regurgitated by the same old usual suspects, who have nothing better to do than bash anything remotely connected to BushCo and the War in Iraq. Blah blah blah. Been there, done that.

Souljah, you sound like a fricken broken record. If you want to bemoan the death of a single human being, why not pick one of the 14 marines that were killed yesterday in a roadside bomb attack? I mean, your did serve at one point, didn't you? Or maybe you just feel more in common with Gen. Mowhoush than you do with your own countrymen? Were you not paying attention in basic when they went over the chapter entitled "war is hell"? I guarentee you that most Americans are probably dismayed by the fact that some US soldiers stooped to their level and went too far. But I am also willing to bet that those same people, after learning about what this guy did and was doing when he was caught, could give a rats a$$ about him being beaten to death. Most people, like me, probably feel he was a victim of his own actions. If they extracted one iota of information from him that only had a slightly marginal chance of saving only one serviceman's life, it was worth it......



posted on Aug, 4 2005 @ 05:15 AM
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Pyros - I see you haven't Heard about Geneva Conventions either, huh?

Lets check a few Articles from the Geneva Convention relative to the Treatment of Prisoners of War



# (Art 13): "Prisoners of war must at all times be humanely treated."

# (Art 13): "...Prisoners of war must at all times be protected, particularly against acts of violence or intimidation and against insults and public curiosity."

# (Art 17): "No physical or mental torture, nor any other form of coercion, may be inflicted on prisoners of war to secure from them information of any kind whatever. Prisoners of war who refuse to answer may not be threatened, insulted or exposed to unpleasant or disadvantageous treatment of any kind."

# (Art 25): "Prisoners of war shall be quartered under conditions as favourable as those for the forces of the Detaining Power who are billeted in the same area."

# (Art 27): "Clothing, underwear and footwear shall be supplied to prisoners of war"

# (Art 33): "Members of the medical personnel and chaplains while retained by the Detaining Power with a view to assisting prisoners of war, shall not be considered as prisoners of war. They shall, however, receive as a minimum the benefits and protection of the present Convention, and shall also be granted all facilities necessary to provide for the medical care of, and religious ministration to prisoners of war."

# (Art 39): "Prisoners of war, with the exception of officers, must salute and show to all officers of the Detaining Power the external marks of respect provided for by the regulations applying in their own forces."

# (Art 42): "The use of weapons against prisoners of war, especially against those who are escaping or attempting to escape, shall constitute an extreme measure, which shall always be preceded by warnings appropriate to the circumstances."

(Art 88): "Officers, non-commissioned officers and men who are prisoners of war undergoing a disciplinary or judicial punishment, shall not be subjected to more severe treatment than that applied in respect of the same punishment to members of the armed forces of the Detaining Power of equivalent rank."

THIS is how a CIVILIZED Country and his Armed Forces TREAT Prisoners of War.

Everything ELSE is Pure Barbarism and it's a BIG stap Backwards - considering the US Forces were sent in to "Remove a Dictataorship Regime" and then they USE the SAME Methods of Torture and Abuse that the Regime they Removed used also.

Who is the Better of Two Evils?



posted on Aug, 4 2005 @ 05:27 AM
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Boohoo cry me a river, This should be done with regularity, then maybe the savages will know not to screw around with us, they need something to fear, and they sure as hell dont fear us now.

[edit on 4-8-2005 by C0le]



posted on Aug, 4 2005 @ 05:29 AM
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Souljah.....

If you were captured by insurgents, do you think quoting the Geneva convention to them, whilst they try and decapitate you, would help?

Spacemunkey



posted on Aug, 4 2005 @ 05:33 AM
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Originally posted by spacemunkey
If you were captured by insurgents, do you think quoting the Geneva convention to them, whilst they try and decapitate you, would help?

So - if they don't "Play by the Rules", so shouldn't the "Good US Forces"?

What kind of Philosophy is that? "If he jumps of the Bridge, so shall we?"

Maybe, just MAYBE, the US Forces could show to the World that they are BETTER then this "Animals" that they fight with.

But actually they are showing the Opposite.

How Sad.



posted on Aug, 4 2005 @ 05:37 AM
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Rofl people like you soul just dont get it do you? ITS A WAR PEOPLE KILL EACH OTHER THERE IS NO ROOM FOR BEING NICE If they fight dirty then we fight dirtier, if they kill one of our guys we kill 10 of theres.

Its not some school yard fight be the better man crap.

[edit on 4-8-2005 by C0le]



posted on Aug, 4 2005 @ 05:46 AM
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Even if liked to see some "insurgents" beaten to death (those who attack civilians, i understand those who bomb/attack US troops that's what i would be doing if you attacked Finland, if you'd give a date when you leave it wouldn't be so bad) but beating information from prisoners is not useful at all, data gathered from torure cannot be considered reliable, at best it can give you some clues on where to look next (but most likely you'll get disinfoed)



posted on Aug, 4 2005 @ 06:14 AM
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Originally posted by Souljah
Have You Seen Enough?

Or do You Want More?


Bring it on, anything that continues to expose the mindless thuggery of state-sponsored terrorism is OK by me.

Both sides are guilty of atrocities, we can only sit back in horror and watch the events unfold. I've got to admire COle's reply for not jumping on any moral high ground bandwagon: 'they attack dirty - we attack dirtier' - at least it's honest if nothing else.



posted on Aug, 4 2005 @ 06:32 AM
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Originally posted by spacemunkey
Souljah.....

If you were captured by insurgents, do you think quoting the Geneva convention to them, whilst they try and decapitate you, would help?

Spacemunkey


No of course it wouldn't munkey.

But thats the whole point, we are better and more civilised than them, aren't we?




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