To all the people doubting Jesus' God status

I've been reading lots of threads lately about how Jesus was not God, he only was son of God, that Jesus was the real 666 etc etc.

Come on people! wake up! can't you see infront of you? Jesus came on Earth to teach love and put a perspective on our lifes. The attempt to make Jesus 'dirty' has been going on for ages, but without success.

It is only at this era that an attempt to alter the status of Jesus Christ has any possibility of succeeding...and that is because of the media. It is the first time in human history that one person can address millions in the form of a TV program.

So the enemies of Jesus Christ, the enemies of God, are spreading BS like 'Christ with horns', Jesus the beast, etc.

The same enemies of Jesus Christ and God are allowing, or even promoting, provocative publications that project 'false' truths, like Jesus being a mere mortal, having children with Mary Magdalene, etc.

This situation has been predicted long before Jesus: "beware of the false prophets!"...the Bible says it clearly: "there is going to be a time that white will be black and black will be white...the once chosen people of God, now the fallen race, will make sure the long awaited messiah (i.e. the Antichrist) will be accepted as the King of Kings" (not a direct translation, but the overall meaning, by the way).

And for those that don't understand what 'son' of God means, here is the explanation: 'son' of God means not the physical son of God, but the "spiritual entity that man is and God made". Jesus Christ is the son of God, i.e. the model of human God built (for His unknown to us reasons) and the one that God wants us to be like. Jesus is the spiritual descentant of God, i.e. a human with the Holy Spirit of God inside (that's also the reason the Catholic Church is wrong, but that's another story).

I've been reading lots of threads lately about how Jesus was not God, he only was son of God,

There are folks here who question or deny the existance of God, so to them Jesus, as any form of Diety, is nothing but a fraud or charlatan.
Genesis Chap. 1 says that Man was made in God's image. Since I consider God to be a Trinity, Father, Son and Holy Ghost, I looked to see if man is a trinity also.
1Thesalonians 5:23 says man is Spirit, Soul, and Body. It helps me understand the Holy Trinity easier if I corelate Gods Trinity to the Trinity of Man--One being with 3 parts.
Just an aside, there are lots of Free online Christian study references at
www.gnic4u.com...

Originally posted by rawiea
1Thesalonians 5:23 says man is Spirit, Soul, and Body. It helps me understand the Holy Trinity easier if I corelate Gods Trinity to the Trinity of Man--One being with 3 parts.

Very glad you pinned down the verse for me. I got into a similar discussion yesterday and wanted to ask about this if you don't mind (my question is not a major point in Christianity nor attempt at any dispute or division). Can you tell me what the difference is between spirit and soul? This is the only place in the Bible I've found this distinction between spirit and soul within a person. This deals with the topic because we're saying Jesus had a human body via the Holy Spirit.

Pray, train, study,
God bless.

[edit on 3-8-2005 by saint4God]

I believe in the triunity of God, that Father, Son and Holy Spirit are three separate entitites, yet all the same. I don't believe this because of some proof that I found in a book or on the net. I believe it because God revealed Himself to me.

Non-Christians cannot understand this because they want proof. I had a spiritual epiphany when God reached out to me. I was raised fundamental baptist. I question everything. I do not believe everything I was taught. I seek knowledge of God through God.

Christians have a need to share their faith with others. This can and does annoy non-Christians who may have their own beliefs. For Christians, I say the best way to share your faith is not by preaching but by living it.

Saint

Spirit = Strong's Number: 4151 pneu'ma (breath)

Soul = Strong's Number: 5590 yuchv [Psuche] (psyche)


My understanding is the spirit (breath) is the spiritual part where God breathed into Adam. Soul (psyche) is the emotional, thinking, free will part. Hope this helps.

Somehow I have heard and believe that the soul is a type of container for the spirit...the electrical charge holding the spirit together. When the soul leaves the body the spirit goes with it. The body alive has the soul within in order to have a mind to function. That's my understanding of it.

Some people equate the soul and spirit as the same, which is kind of logical...but to be more specific the spirit is the part of you that has the wonderful elements of beliefs and god's personalities

Originally posted by masterp

So the enemies of Jesus Christ, the enemies of God, are spreading BS like 'Christ with horns', Jesus the beast, etc.

The same enemies of Jesus Christ and God are allowing, or even promoting, provocative publications that project 'false' truths, like Jesus being a mere mortal, having children with Mary Magdalene, etc.

Who exactly are the enemies of Jesus? So it's either with jesus or against him?

Jesus was a good man. His most importent message? "love they neighbor as yourself" I don't think he was just talking about your neighbor across the street who looks and talks just like you.

So what should be done with the "enemies" of Jesus? Burned at the stake for daring to think for themselves? For questioning ?

This weekend I am going to Zurich to hear a lecture by the Dali Lama. Another good man. I wonder if in two thousand years people will attribute a virgin birth or ressurection to him? Hopefully by then we will have evolved enough not to be enslaved by that rubbish.

Can't we just let a good man be a good man? I think the human race has a terminal case of bad self esteem. According to Christians a good man is either divine ( jesus) or a really good Christian. All other religions the same..not picking on Christian here...Moslems burn books too.

I am a good person..but not a Christian..I know..I'm going to hell anyway right?

Originally posted by darkelf
Christians have a need to share their faith with others.

... to shore up their own doubts and validate their own belief, in my opinion. It would seem that those who assume they know the truth about what happens when we die are almost always the ones who are the most afraid to take that final step and really discover the truth.

If your god is God, why do you fear to join him? Why force the barely functional corpse of Terri Schavio to keep on existing for so long if you are sure that she would be with God when she died? If you KNOW what happens, why be afraid of it or try to delay it? Why force others to cling to a life of suffering (ie: terminally ill and in great pain) if you have certain knowledge that the afterlife is so much better? I submit that the Christian fear of Death proves that there is no certainty in the Christian teachings dispite all the countless claims to the contrary. In fact, uncertainty about Death is the lynchpin of the entire religious fear-based control system.

This can and does annoy non-Christians who may have their own beliefs.

That is correct, it annoys the [insert explitive of your choice] out of us. Just because I don't try to impose my own beliefs on others doesn't mean I don't have beliefs, nor do I intentionally confuse my belief with knowledge. Now I don't demand that others be exposed to my beliefs, because other people's acceptance of what I believe matters not at all to me. Truth is truth, no matter if one believes it or ten-thousand believe it. That's not to imply that I know the truth, by the way. The only great truths that I know of are these:

1. Everything we have seen so far changes.
2. About the only other thing that we can know for sure is that we don't know.

Yet, organized religions make every effort and even try to impose laws to insure that litterally everyone has no choice but to be exposed to and hopefully indocrinated into their beliefs and their dogma. I'm not comfortable with that. I think it's kinda rude.

For Christians, I say the best way to share your faith is not by preaching but by living it.

That is possibly the most exellent thing I've heard from a Christian in a very long time.



If more religious folk would or could think that way, it would be a much more peaceful world. I'm much more likely to pay attention to something if I see examples of it working in a positive way than I am if someone just trys to tell me about it.

Originally posted by saint4God

Originally posted by rawiea
1Thesalonians 5:23 says man is Spirit, Soul, and Body. It helps me understand the Holy Trinity easier if I corelate Gods Trinity to the Trinity of Man--One being with 3 parts.

Very glad you pinned down the verse for me. I got into a similar discussion yesterday and wanted to ask about this if you don't mind (my question is not a major point in Christianity nor attempt at any dispute or division). Can you tell me what the difference is between spirit and soul? This is the only place in the Bible I've found this distinction between spirit and soul within a person. This deals with the topic because we're saying Jesus had a human body via the Holy Spirit.

Pray, train, study,
God bless.

[edit on 3-8-2005 by saint4God]

I don't want to get "preachy" but I looked this up some time ago. By the way, you might also look up Hebrews 4:2--Spirit, Soul, Joint and Marrow.
Although I have other translations, I'll be using both the KJV Bible and Strongs Numbered Concordance, which has a Greek & Hebrew dictionary in the back. Also, it is keyed to the KJV.
To all others reading this thread, I'm just trying to answer a question to the best of my ability.

Spirit--Ruwach, Strongs Number---07307 ( wind, breath, mind, spirit -_
Soul --Nepesh, Strongs Number---05315 (soul, self, life, creature, person, appetite, mind, living being, desire, emotion, passion )
Body--Soma, Strongs Number 4983 (Body, # 4 that which casts a shadow as distinguished from the shadow itself )

Spirit would then be the Breathing, mental, or thinking part of a being. We know that man breathe, in fact, lack of breath signifies death. God breathes, at least he did in Genesis 2:7. ( 7: And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.)
The Soul in that verse is different from Spirit as one (Spirit--breath) comes before the other (Soul--life). The soul by the previous definition, would be Life itself, emotions, desire etc.
The Body is what holds us all together. Like putting syrup on your hotcakes, the plate holds it all together. The Spirit meshes with the Soul and the Body holds it all together.
Make no mistake, there is a Heavenly Body. ( I Corinthians 15: 40-49 ). Reference especially vs, 44: It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
God is a Spirit--Genesis 1:2
God is a Soul--Jeremiah 5:9
God has a Body--I Corinthians: 15:44
Sometimes I can read something dozens of times before I see what is there. I suppose that is why it is a good idea for Believers to get together every so often.
For example, Did you know that God Sits, indicating some type of Body. --Revelations 5:1
There are other verses you could find with a good Concordance.
I hope this answered your question.

Hey Mods shouldn't this be moved to, I don't know, off the site.

It doesn't involve "conspiracies in religions" at all, it only
involves dogmatic religious preaching.

The belief or disbelief in any particular religious icon, is not conspiracy, its
either blind faith or rational disbelief.

All religious holidays, the trinity, the sign of the cross comes from Paganism, which is derived from the people that lived in the Indus valley. Look it up, I would like to know when Jesus was really born, I am pretty sure it wasnt December 25th. That is the date of the Yule holiday in where old Nick (the trinity) was reborn from the goddess and would give gifts to children. Havnt you noticed the BIG religious holidays coincide witht he winter and spring solstice? It is all stolen from Pagans!!

Mainstream religion is used for control through fear. How about a little empathy? Jesus was the Prince of Peace, and we are all sons and daughters of God.

Originally posted by rawiea
God has a Body--I Corinthians: 15:44

For example, Did you know that God Sits, indicating some type of Body. --Revelations 5:1
There are other verses you could find with a good Concordance.
I hope this answered your question.

Thank you for the Corinthians reference. I hear what you're saying, though I'm not sure the spiritual boday as it's being talked about here bears the resemblence of human form because further on:

1 Corinthians 15:50 "I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the imperishable. Listen, I tell you a myestery..."

I think Paul clues us in here to say we're not gonna know exactly what kind of spiritual body God is or the one that we will inherit. We can tell though, this spiritual body doesn't have a tangible form like the physical body (law of conservation of mass and energy). I also know to take God as a literal physical form may not be an accurate assessment according to the witnesses of the Bible.

This all builds a nice healthy case for understanding Jesus though. Physical human body occupied by a spiritual body through the Holy Spirit. It's interesting to think 3-dimentionally.

I would like to know when Jesus was really born, I am pretty sure it wasnt December 25th.
LoneGunMan

I'd agree with you. The Bible says that the Shepherds were with their sheep at night. I am guessing that this would be a summertime activity. Israel is in the Northern Hemisphere, so December would be winter, and a little cool for being outside at night.

I think Paul clues us in here to say we're not gonna know exactly what kind of spiritual body God is or the one that we will inherit. We can tell though, this spiritual body doesn't have a tangible form like the physical body (law of conservation of mass and energy). I also know to take God as a literal physical form may not be an accurate assessment according to the witnesses of the Bible.
saint4God

Agreed. The spiritual body is different, but it exists. Jesus, after the resurrection, said that he was not yet changed completely. He is depicted as sitting on a throne though. In the book of Revelation, everything and everyone in Heaven is described in such a way that it seems almost physical.

Apocalypta - nice post

And I do hope you enjoy the Dalai Lama's teaching; I was lucky enough to attend a benefit where he gave the opening comments, and the day before had gone to Central Park to see him speak.

Jesus and The Dalai Lama share many, many traits; it's just tragic that followers of either sometimes get lost in their own dogma and the need to be "right".

And Legalizer? I agree. This thread is going to end up in a slanging match

Originally posted by rawiea
Agreed. The spiritual body is different, but it exists. Jesus, after the resurrection, said that he was not yet changed completely. He is depicted as sitting on a throne though. In the book of Revelation, everything and everyone in Heaven is described in such a way that it seems almost physical.

Yeah, that's true. I presumed it was because we couldn't really conceive much beyond our physical realm. Still, I s'pose the spiritual body could be physical-body-like since in Genesis we were made in God's image. Though God being limitless.... hm.

Brain-food, lots to think about and consider. Thanks again rawiea, this was a healthy dose of education for me.

Originally posted by apocalypta

Who exactly are the enemies of Jesus? So it's either with jesus or against him?

Jesus said that Himself:

"He who is not with me is against me, and he who will not give me help in getting people together is driving them away" Mark 10:29( Bible in Basic English Version)

" He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad." Matthew 12:30 (KJV)

"Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." John 14:6 (KJV)

"He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?
Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me." John 15:21-24

These were words spoken by The Lord Jesus, Himself, not by me or someone else. The message is clear.

Jesus was a good man. His most importent message? "love they neighbor as yourself" I don't think he was just talking about your neighbor across the street who looks and talks just like you.

Jesus was not just a good man. Read the Bible; He claimed to be God, on more than one occasion. He claimed to be able to forgive sin, to grant eternal life and performed many, many miracles, including, on at least two occasions, raising the dead. Listen t what he says about Himself and those that are "for" Him:

" I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. I and the Father are one." Again the Jews picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus said to them, "I have shown you many great miracles from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?" "We are not stoning you for any of these," replied the Jews, "but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God." John 10:28-33(NIV)

Jesus claimed to Be God, the long awaited Messiah, the Jews in authority understood this as did anyone who listened to Him preach. He did not spend His life wandering around preaching "love thy neighbor" and nothing else. He preached radical devotion to God and forgivenes of sin through Himself.

The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things. Jesus saith unto her, "I that speak unto thee am he." John 4:25-26 KJV

So what should be done with the "enemies" of Jesus? Burned at the stake for daring to think for themselves? For questioning ?

No. At least not in this life. But you may have some difficulty in the next, if you continue to try to put Jesus into a "Box", that's labeled, "good man and teacher" Jesus was very clear on this point:

"And all the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left. "Then the King will say to those on His right, 'Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 'For I was hungry, and you gave Me [something] to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in; naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.' "Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You drink? 'And when did we see You a stranger, and invite You in, or naked, and clothe You? 'And when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?' "And the King will answer and say to them, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, [even] the least [of them,] you did it to Me.' "Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; for I was hungry, and you gave Me [nothing] to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink; I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.' "Then they themselves also will answer, saying, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?' "Then He will answer them, saying, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.' "And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." (NASB)

This weekend I am going to Zurich to hear a lecture by the Dali Lama. Another good man. I wonder if in two thousand years people will attribute a virgin birth or ressurection to him? Hopefully by then we will have evolved enough not to be enslaved by that rubbish.

I wouldn't hold my breath, if I were you.

Can't we just let a good man be a good man? I think the human race has a terminal case of bad self esteem. According to Christians a good man is either divine ( jesus) or a really good Christian. All other religions the same..not picking on Christian here...Moslems burn books too.

Are you willing to trust your eternal destiny to the Dali Lama? What has he promised you, lately, about where you are going to spend eternity? When did he even claim that he could make a difference, in where you will spend that eternity. You can believe Jesus, you can trust Him. He will forgive your sins, and give you a new life here on earth and a promise to spend eternity with Him. What do you have to lose, except your burden of sin and your assurance that you will be eternally seperated from God, without Him.?

I am a good person..but not a Christian..I know..I'm going to hell anyway right?

Being a good person is not enough. "This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." Romans 3:22-23 (NIV)

“our righteousness are as filthy rags” Isaiah 64:6(KJV)

There is only one way to heaven, my friend, and that is through Jesus Christ. You can call Him a "good man" and hide your head in the sand and pretend that He just isn't there; but He is and He is waiting for you with open arms, ready to forgive you and reconcile you to God, your Heavenly Father. The Dali Lama, is a "good man"; but he doesn't have the answers. Only Jesus can set you free and Jesus said "when the Son shall set you free, you will be free indeed." John 8:36

Why not trust Jesus? He loves you very much.

Grace and Peace,

Lightseeker

Lightseeker


I thought your post was very nice . It is obvious that you really believe. I respect that. It seems to me that life is easier when you have faith in something larger then you.

I have to tell you that one of the reasons I am so turned off by Christianity is becasue of its exclusivness. The with me or aginst me theme is disturbing. ( So thats where Bush got it from!!! scary)

I agree that the scriptures you qouted totally support the with me or aginst me idea and the one way or the high way idea. I don't know how to answer that.

I'l think about what you said.

Thank You

Originally posted by Ambient Sound

If your god is God, why do you fear to join him? Why force the barely functional corpse of Terri Schavio to keep on existing for so long if you are sure that she would be with God when she died?

Now I don't demand that others be exposed to my beliefs, because other people's acceptance of what I believe matters not at all to me.

I don't fear to join him. In matter of fact I look forward to the day that I can. I don't look forward to the pain death can bring, and I would like to stay around and be with my family.

As for Terri, I believe the reports of the parents. She was not just a barely functional corpse. Her husband had many motives to see Terri dead. I believe Terri still could have been a blessing to her parents even in the state that she was in.

Also there is a culture of death comming upon us. It started with abortions, and has given ideas of killing the eldery, feeble, and disabled because they supposedly don't have much to share with society. The judgment against Terri took society another step down that path. Then there are ideas of aborting babies if doctors believe they have some type of disability.

As far as exposing our beliefs to others, I think this story sums it up quite nicely, and also the reason why many Christians fail and get others angry wit them.

The Story, I forget where I heard it:

There was a man on death row. The preist came to escort him to the electric chair. The preist who didn't know what to say, opened the Bible and just started to read. After a couple of passages, the inmate turned to the preacher, and asked do you believe what you just read about hell? The priest stumbled, and said I'm not really sure. The inmate said, your a preist and you are suppose to really believe this stuff. If I really believed in hell, then I would do everything in my power to stop someone from going to hell. I would walk across a river of broken glass, crawl if I couldn't use my feet any longer, and keep crawling until I only have stubs to keep someone from going to such a terrible place as you described.

Originally posted by apocalypta
I have to tell you that one of the reasons I am so turned off by Christianity is becasue of its exclusivness. The with me or aginst me theme is disturbing. ( So thats where Bush got it from!!! scary)

Jesus hung out with a prostitute, a tax collector, and other people considered by the general public to be 'unsavory'. He loved them and told us to do the same. How can you love AND exclude someone? Christianity is about a personal relationship with God, where His son is our teacher and saviour. Beyond that, it's really not the heart of the faith. Feel free to U2U me anytime if I can help in any way.

Originally posted by apocalypta
Lightseeker

It seems to me that life is easier when you have faith in something larger then you.

Well, yes and no. Yes, having faith in God to forgive me all of my sins(and there were a lot)because of what Jesus Christ did on the cross was the most awsome, life changing, experience of my life and trusting Him for all of my needs is very freeing. On the other hand, living the Christian life is hard though not burdomsome. You see, as Dietrich Bonhoeffer the great german
martyr put it, " When Christ calls a man, He bids him come and die." You die to sin, of course, that is the reason Christ died for us, but you are also called on to die to self; setting aside the things of this world, that the natural "flesh" lusts and longs for, for the promise of the next world where we will spend eternity with Christ. So, all things considered, not a hard choice to make but hard to live with and live through, sometimes.

I agree that the scriptures you qouted totally support the with me or aginst me idea and the one way or the high way idea. I don't know how to answer that.

I'l think about what you said.

Thank You

Good idea, think about it and ask God to enlighten your thinking and make Himself "real" to you. Read more of the Bible and pray for enlightenment. If you are sincerely desiring to know the truth, God will honor your prayer and will reveal Himself to you.

I'll leave you with this: The Apostle Paul's words from Phillipians, "But whatever gain I had, I counted as loss for the sake of Christ. Indeed, I count everything as loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. For his sake I have suffered the loss of all things and count them as rubbish, in order that I may gain Christ and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith." Phillipians 3:7-9

God Bless You,

Lightseeker