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Are you Muslim? Dont like Britain? Then get out !

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posted on Aug, 3 2005 @ 11:30 AM
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Ben,

100% Irrelevant

The story is about a guy who wants extreme Muslims to leave his country rather than kill people. No scandal or conspiracy there.

Who cares what causes the highest death rate? This story is about Islamic Extremists adding to it.

Death rate statistics aren’t what we care about right now. Busses, disease, accidents will always kill people. But that’s not we are talking about.

People like you who always shoot past the issue and try to water it down by introducing parallels. You are adding to the problem by reducing its importance.

Id love one of you people to sit down at a dinner table with a family who lost somebody in these attacks and say the same things. I want you to tell them:

"Don’t worry about, it was more likely they would have gotten killed by a bus or a virus.."

Go ahead and do that for me.




posted on Aug, 3 2005 @ 11:39 AM
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I believe most people aren't afraid of Muslims being terrorists persay, but more afraid of losing a sense of national identification.

No matter what arguement anyone can give, Great Britain is a Western, predominantly white, nation. The majority are Christian. It is their house. What we in the Western world are seeing is an influx of people's from every corner of the globe coming in to have a piece of our very generous pie. No problems with that.

What I do have a problem with, is people coming to exploit what we have worked so hard to build. Intstead of embracing the culture that they have voluntarily decided to enter, they choose exclusion. That is the problem with certain immigrants, Muslims being one of them. The money of Europe and America and Australia are good enough for them. But that's where the line is drawn.

I may come off as being rascist. But that is not what I am trying to paint here. I am not saying Westerners are better than anyone else. But these are our cultures that are being watered down by pluralism and the great myth of the 'melting pot'.

It is ok in today's PC world to be "Black and proud", or the poor Muslim who is always labeled as a terrorist. But as soon as a person of European descent says, " I am proud to be German", or " God save the Queen", or " Viva la France", they are labeled as a rascist or nationalist. That is the double edged sword of being white in today's world. We are now the Earth's bogeymen. The cause of all problems, from the Crusades, to American Slavery, to Viet Nam, and now Iraq. It is because of "whitey's" transgressions that the world is in total chaos and confusion.

Well, thank god I am not PC. I will voice exactly how I feel, and I hope others do the same. I would rather have someone up in my face, telling my what's on their minds, than trying to 'protect my feelings' from what they might say.

So, after all is said and done:

Yes, anyone who does not want to share in the wealth and peacefulness of Western style living should leave. If they do not want to assimilate and join the rest of us for BBQ's and fireworks, then leave.
(that also goes for you anti-American and 'blame the white-man for all the world's problems' factions.) Maybe there is a small(deserted) Island in the Pacific for the lot of ya.



posted on Aug, 3 2005 @ 11:52 AM
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Originally posted by nathraq

So, after all is said and done:

Yes, anyone who does not want to share in the wealth and peacefulness of Western style living should leave. If they do not want to assimilate and join the rest of us for BBQ's and fireworks, then leave.
(that also goes for you anti-American and 'blame the white-man for all the world's problems' factions.) Maybe there is a small(deserted) Island in the Pacific for the lot of ya.



Awsome Post.

You have captured exactly how I feel and your words are 100% Truth.

I Applaude you!!!



posted on Aug, 3 2005 @ 11:57 AM
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Yeah a lot are probably there not for the culture and way of life but for the money that can be earnt living in a rich western nation. It isn't unusal for this to be the case with first generation immigrants regardless of where they are from, what worries me is some of the bombers had grown up in the UK. If second generation immigrants are not assimilating than that will become a problem because you will have a culture living inside another culture. When there is some assimilation this isn't a problem because when the 2nd generation thinks of themselves as British this bolsters the size of the native culture, if second generation immigrants still consider themselves *insert nationality here* first and British second than the foriegn culture increases in size and makes the native culture feel uneasy among other things.

I also agree with nathraq and would like to add that "whitey" may be guilty of doing a lot of bad stuff but than again a lot of the more powerful nations in recent times (say, 1600-1900 or so) were ones with large white christian populations. When one has power more often than not one abuses that power. It would be interesting to see if any other peoples and cultures would have acted in a similar way if the boot was on the other foot. I think they might have.

[edit on 3-8-2005 by Trent]



posted on Aug, 3 2005 @ 12:15 PM
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Originally posted by nathraq

It is ok in today's PC world to be "Black and proud", or the poor Muslim who is always labeled as a terrorist. But as soon as a person of European descent says, " I am proud to be German", or " God save the Queen", or " Viva la France", they are labeled as a rascist or nationalist.


In what paralel universe does that occur exactly?
It doesn't happen in the one I live in.
You CAN say that you are proud to be American/German/French every single day and you will not be labeled as racist. I don't know where you got that from.

However, if you say that you are proud to be white american/german/french and you want to kick out "lower" races out of the country, THEN you will get a label "racist", which is correct in that case.
It is not the fact that you are proud of who you are that gets you in trouble, what gets you in trouble is if you are proud of SUPERIORITY of your race over others, superiority solely based on the color of your skin or your religion and not on your deeds.

Culture is an evolving thing. It is NOT static. How did black people come to America in the first place? They were SLAVES of white people, they didn't come on their own free will. Back then it was white people's CULTURE to have slaves, thank God that culture disapeared.
Now they too are americans and the culture or superior white race has changed to culture of equal races.

Now we have influx of immigrants from third world (all former colonies of european countries, colonies that have been enslaved and exploited for centuries, plus the Cold War was fought there), meaning we have another mixing of cultures going on right now.
I see that as a good thing, since all previous culture mixing has proven to be good in the end.

As much as these immigrants have to adapt to new culture, the "native" culture has to change too. They have to get used to the fact that the OLD culture has served its purpose.

If women want to wear a headscarf, that is their choice and it does not in any way directly influence your life.
If immigrants refuse to watch porn 24/7 and don't want to get drunk in strip bars every night, again it is their choice and it doesn't stop you from doing it.

You cannot expect that ALL immigrants are genetically changed so that they are not able to commit evil or crime. They are just as messed up as the white man, meaning there will be criminals amongst them. We should treat them as any other criminal: arest, charge, convict, jail, and not blame ALL of them for deeds of few.
White man has the right to be drug dealer, rapist, killer, without blaming ALL white people for it, so the same should go for immigrants.
You see their criminals as generaly inability of immigrants to adapt to new culture. Generalising the problem won't help solve it.
Treat them as individuals.

What most immigrants bring into the country are restaurants and music

So we got kebabs to eat now, variety of music to listen to, a chance to learn about the people we used to enslave and treat as "barbarians".

The theory of "endangered" white man is simply not true, since white people still make out more then 80-90% of population of western countries.

So chill



posted on Aug, 3 2005 @ 12:22 PM
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Nathrak...That was a brilliant post...I second that 100%



posted on Aug, 3 2005 @ 12:56 PM
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Originally posted by paperclip
As much as these immigrants have to adapt to new culture, the "native" culture has to change too. They have to get used to the fact that the OLD culture has served its purpose.


That is true but we aren't talking about the gradual mixing of cultures here, we are talking about what can only be described as a collision of cultures. If you have a growing number of people preaching "death to the west" and these people are in a western country than i don't see how anyone could think this is ok. Most western countries are very accepting unless people are not willing to at least make an effort to fit in with the society they live in. Most immigrants do fit in and have been doing so for a very long time, especially in Britian but with raised tensions because of the war on terror more seem to be seeing the west as an enemy even if they live in a western culture if the polls can be believed.

[edit on 3-8-2005 by Trent]



posted on Aug, 3 2005 @ 12:58 PM
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The theory of "endangered" white man is simply not true, since white people still make out more then 80-90% of population of western countries


Yes, but whites are the world's minority. We should make up 80-90% of Western Nations because, well, they are Western. The Japanese in Japan shouldn't make up only 80-90% of their land either.

The whole spiel about 'whitey' being persecuted if he says he is 'white and proud' is a truism. Just see for yourself. Wear a shirt that says "White Pride" on it, and listen to all the comments you will get. Now, turn it around, and have a black person wear a "It's a black thing, you wouldn't understand" shirt, and listen to the comments. Comments? Exactly. You wouldn't hear one. Except maybe some whispers between some white folks amongst themselves , but that's it.

Back to immigrant assimilation: European immigrants to America, after the first generation, tended to assimilate rather well into Amercan culture. Then, in the 80's we had the Central American and Asian wave. Hmmm...... let's see....... we have people with the last name Hernandez, Wrblonski, and Liu all speaking English, Pledging to the Flag, and inter-marrying with each other. That is the American case. And so far, it has been successful, despite some drawbacks and bumps in the road.

The case of Europe is a bit different. They were not an experiment of a 'melting pot'. They have already had established cultures that were ages old. For the Europeans to try and defend what is their's; to preserve the history and cultures of the European continent, is not rascist. It is their house, and guests to it should act accordingly.


In conclusion: Foreigners who decide to move to a stange land should obey the laws, and try to adapt to the culture in which they are living. This could dispell a lot of myths about any particular group of people, especially when they are living alongside each other. Immigrants who become U.S. citizens take an Oath of Allegiance. They should honor that allegiance and have a sense of national obligation to the generous country that granted them citizenship in the first place.



posted on Aug, 3 2005 @ 01:01 PM
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Nathraq:

BINGO!!!


You have voted nathraq for the Way Above Top Secret award. You have two more votes this month.



posted on Aug, 3 2005 @ 01:15 PM
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All dissenters go away!!!!

Slightly extreme reaction to this thread, but seems to catch at least part of it.




(that also goes for you anti-American and 'blame the white-man for all the world's problems' factions.) Maybe there is a small(deserted) Island in the Pacific for the lot of ya.


Still, hard to argue with the title, the problem being what level of dissent is acceptable, im a white Englishman and i disagree with many aspects of our counties culture.

I dislike the secretive nature of government, the lack of decent public transport, the way the views of the majority of voters can be totally ignored.

Should i also get out? Am i insuficiently patriotic?

In this i share many of the problems that many muslims have in this country, a hostile public was dragged into an uncessecary war. However many Muslims feel that this war was designed to target them, and feel more afraid of government and authority.

Should they leave too?



posted on Aug, 3 2005 @ 01:16 PM
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Originally posted by nathraq
Yes, but whites are the world's minority. We should make up 80-90% of Western Nations because, well, they are Western.


Although I agree with some of your post, WTF does this mean? You holding onto the white majority because... ? Why shouldn't white be the minority if that's the way things change? Remember, red used to be the majority in the US before whitey came along.
Things change. Whitey don't always get to be the boss...

People tell me that if I don't like it - GET OUT! all the time. I deny them.




[edit on 3-8-2005 by Benevolent Heretic]

[edit on 3-8-2005 by Benevolent Heretic]



posted on Aug, 3 2005 @ 01:21 PM
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Originally posted by sanctum
Why is this posted in WoT?

This, to me, implies that any person who is a Muslim and has any gripe with any non Muslim is a terrorist. This is called racism or a different view of ideologies...which is political.

Sanc'.


I can't disagree more! Take the statement at face value and stop reading RACISM into everything. The man said, "if you don't like living here, then move to where you're happy!"

I'd rather have them do that than turn London into a "Mecca that has better weather." any day!


I dislike the secretive nature of government, the lack of decent public transport, the way the views of the majority of voters can be totally ignored.

Should i also get out? Am i insuficiently patriotic?


That depends. Have you tried blowing up Parliment, a bus, or the House of Commons yet? Probably not. Actually, why DO you live there if you dislike it soo much. I live in California and believe me, there's TONS of things to gripe about, but a balance is struck when a decent wage is earned and the weather works for you instead of against you.

If I've got those two things, I can pretty much put up with anything.

[edit on 3-8-2005 by Toelint]



posted on Aug, 3 2005 @ 01:22 PM
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Well put nathraq.

If foreigners or children of foreigners don't like the western country their living in....MOVE! HIT THE ROAD!!! Go home and complain to your home countries government and see how long you last.

Its nice to see a politician stand up and say what most of us are thinking. Ive lived over-seas and have seen alot of different cultures, but nothing like radical Islam and it has no place in our western society.

Times-are-a-changing in Germany also, the Socialist Party is on the ropes and the Christian Right is ready to take power. What do you think Germany is going to do with all their radical Muslims?

Paperclip...as usual your wrong, but Im sure your Ethnic-Studies teacher would be proud of what you've written.

Maximu§



posted on Aug, 3 2005 @ 01:26 PM
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I see your point, Uncle Joe.

But, being a Brit, would you now move to another country because you feel you are being 'ignored' by your government? In said country, would you still be overzealously "british", and plan bombings of that countries public facilities because they may be at war with your former 'homecountry'? Would you still have that pride in the fact that Britain has a rich history and culture, hence making you 'distance' yourself from your new countrymen?

Or..........


Would you rather just stay in good 'ol England, knowing the system may not be perfect, but it is better than most? The government is stable, the economy is stable, money could be made by those who are industrious and clever enough to make it, and a culture of ca. 1000 years lays behind you.


The difference, Uncle Joe, is that you are British. Britain is your family, and you have every right to gripe about it. But you do so peacefully. Not with bombs.



posted on Aug, 3 2005 @ 01:44 PM
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A fair few muslims are just a British as me (im descended from polish immigrants)

They disagree with the syatem as much as i do, can they stay?

All im really saying is what will we tolerate from Muslims?

During the worst of the Troubles with Ireland there were no calls to deport all the Irish

I think deportation is generally a bad idea, since all those who are kicked out will go to Arab nations and join terror networks there, simply passing on the problem.

[edit on 3-8-2005 by Uncle Joe]



posted on Aug, 3 2005 @ 01:44 PM
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Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic

Although I agree with some of your post, WTF does this mean? You holding onto the white majority because... ? Why shouldn't white be the minority if that's the way things change? Remember, red used to be the majority in the US before whitey came along.
Things change. Whitey don't always get to be the boss...

[edit on 3-8-2005 by Benevolent Heretic]


I'm confused by this post.

I will not be an apologist for what happened 100's of years ago. Sorry.

I see, once again, we have a blame whitey post. If 'whitey', as you put it, is, was, and always has been the majority of Europe, and they want to protect that culture, so be it. Races can not be forced together. The miracle of the American culture is a bit different. Most came here to be able to have a better life, and assimilate into Amercan culture, as I have stated before.

Europe, 1000's of years old, has a different dogma. They were in contact with non-European cultures from Africa, the Middle East, and Asia since the Greeks. But they preserved their cultures. Not saying they are better, but I am saying that there is nothing wrong with trying to protect what is yours.

The fact is that people are immigrating to the West. No-one is immigrating anywhere else in the numbers they are to the Western World. That puts us in the hot seat. If the Middle East was the place to be, then I'm sure people over there would start griping about the Western immigrants coming to their countries.

To Conclude: In my opinion, it is not a bad thing to have some sense of pride in who you are, and where You come from. Worldwatcher has opened my eyes to the Indian(India) culture, and I fell in love with Bollywood actresses because of that (they are smoking hot!). It is when you have a superiority complex, that friction can occur.



posted on Aug, 3 2005 @ 01:53 PM
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Way to many of you ASSUME this man is talking about all disgruntled Muslims in England, or all Muslims for that matter.

He is not, he is talking about Muslims, British or not, that are hatefull enough to cause violence and deaths as a result. Whats so terrible about him telling THESE people to go away instead of killing people? Nothing at all.

SOme of you have become so left wing and PC that you have lost sight of the obvious.

You know, some people in this world REALLY ARE bad. And its OK to talk about them.



posted on Aug, 3 2005 @ 02:24 PM
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Originally posted by skippytjc
Way to many of you ASSUME this man is talking about all disgruntled Muslims in England


Oh, i'm sorry skippy.

I must have misread the title of your thread.

Sanc'.



posted on Aug, 3 2005 @ 02:31 PM
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Originally posted by nathraq

Back to immigrant assimilation: European immigrants to America, after the first generation, tended to assimilate rather well into Amercan culture. Then, in the 80's we had the Central American and Asian wave. Hmmm...... let's see....... we have people with the last name Hernandez, Wrblonski, and Liu all speaking English, Pledging to the Flag, and inter-marrying with each other. That is the American case. And so far, it has been successful, despite some drawbacks and bumps in the road.


By bumps you mean: chinese mafia, russian mafia holding most of sex slave trade, italian mafia, high level organized crime, south american drug lords, and so on. EVERY immigrant group has a part that does not fit in, so does the native population. Muslims are not some kind of exception.
Even though ALL immigrant groups have bad apples, Muslims are singled out as the only ones who do not fit in.



The case of Europe is a bit different. They were not an experiment of a 'melting pot'. They have already had established cultures that were ages old. For the Europeans to try and defend what is their's; to preserve the history and cultures of the European continent, is not rascist. It is their house, and guests to it should act accordingly.


Nobody is trying to destroy history or completely change Europe eradicating every trace that white people ever existed.
Every single white european still learns history of his country in school, they all still sing their national anthems and there isnt a single immigrant group who is even considering changing that. They all can say that they are proud of being german/french/dutch/, nobody has made a law against it and no media has in any way condemned it as some kind of racist behaviour.
The ONLY people who have been called racist are the ones who are bothered by the sight of the colored people on the street, the ones who scream "kick all non whites out of my country because I hate them", those are the ones labeled "racist". I should know that, I LIVE IN EUROPE.



In conclusion: Foreigners who decide to move to a stange land should obey the laws, and try to adapt to the culture in which they are living. This could dispell a lot of myths about any particular group of people, especially when they are living alongside each other. Immigrants who become U.S. citizens take an Oath of Allegiance. They should honor that allegiance and have a sense of national obligation to the generous country that granted them citizenship in the first place.


Most immigrants OBEY laws, most have adapted to the countries they live in, in terms that they respect the law, have jobs, kids go to school. But they are not going to pull a "michael jackson" and change the color of their skin because Old Europe used to be all whiteys.

That is not going to happen, and white man should get used to the sight of colored people on the street.
I know you are not one of those whiteys, nathraq, I am just speaking generaly here, and not to you personaly


I understand what you are trying to say, you are refering to those immigrants preaching hate in mosques or who engage in organized crime and such.
The difference is that I would not call it "immigrant problem", but "a problem with extreme elements of immigrant population". A small semantic difference, a huge step towards integration


Just because there are 7-8% of immigrants in Europe, doesn't mean they are all bad and some kind of threat to Europe. Europe might not have been a "melting pot" in the past, but it has become one now, and THAT is what we have to deal with.

The whole point of free western society is that people are treated as individuals. We should practice what we preach when it comes to immigrants too and not just "our own".

As I said before, certain individuals are trying to present the whole thing as a clash of cultures that divides us into distinct groups that by nature cannot live together. We are all being judged by the worst of our kind ignoring everything else. Americans are war mongers, arabs are terrorists, mexicans are drug dealers, blacks are gang members and so on. I'll say it again: that is bull#.
We are better then that. By "we" I mean the people who believe in ideals of free society.

I understand where you are coming from, with the concern that your culture might be destroyed. Criminal elements ARE a problem in society, but there are ways of dealing with them without generalizing the whole group.
What we must do is not let them destroy everything, I completely agree with that; I don't want shariah law implemented, for example, any more then you do, but dealing with these people should be the same as dealing with any other criminal, and not make out of that some kind of epic struggle.

Race and culture issues and tensions have always been there, but we live in times when people are aware of it more then ever before, hence these discussions. That is a good thing, awareness brings change.

Nathraq, I think that we actually mean the same, we are only wording it differently.


I like to quote Bruce Springsteen in discussions like these:

"may the living let us in, before the dead tear us apart"





P.S.


Originally posted by LA_Minimus
Paperclip...as usual your wrong, but Im sure your Ethnic-Studies teacher would be proud of what you've written.


As usual, you have no idea what you are talking about. I finished school long time ago



posted on Aug, 3 2005 @ 02:55 PM
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OI! (operation interrupt) I think there is a point here that is being missed.
If a Muslim left their homeland to mingle with Western society, they become westernized and are as hated as the Westerners. Expelling them back to the dogma of the Religious fanatics denies them the freedoms we preach. This is a worse act of profiling than the searches going on around the many airports. They too are targets for the bombers regardless of whether they are in a Westernized society or whether they still reside in a predominantly Muslim society.

Thats not to say that sleepers don't exist... but the solution isn't in isolationism but love, understanding, and compassion. Get through to them that they should like us.

It's our way and not our means that has them against us. Its our ability and their lack of that has them against us. Its our personal freedoms and their lack of that has them wanting to come here (wherever) that has the fanatic element as seeing us as a threat. In truth, we are a threat. A threat to oppressive societies that won't conform on an intellectual level.

Sending them further back into the dark ages isn't the answer. Opening hearts and minds is. Declaring War on them is hardly opening ones arms out of love, its more like opening the arms lockers out of discipline. Put yourself in their shoes and understand that this whole terroristic theme was a cry for attention. They got the attention alright but didn't realize that a crime befitting bringing mankind to the brink of Armageddon would be the end result.
Better still would have been for them to address the problem where we the people were in a position to help them to sort it out... now all we the people have is the same kind of oppression we sought to eliminate, a diminishing of personal freedoms and rights, and a government that tries to correct everything through a swift blow.
Evil men and their evil ways will ultimately rule in evil days. The Second Coming looms and we will get along... or be removed from the flock.

Open your hearts and minds and someday maybe we'll all just get along and make advancement instead of being thrown back to war at every major brink in human history. It's time to grow out of this often tried solution that might work in the short term (when the enemy is weakened) but will ultimately fail in the long run since enemy do tend to group together (and particularly in the Muslim world) and stand up against the bigger foe.
Again, IMHO only the Second Coming will ever end our woes... it's our nature and only something super-natural will ever change that. Its easy enough to prove, imagine a NWO, a one governement rule, and understand that every government on the face of this planet is unwilling to give up their hold over the people. Its a power thing ppl, and only God has the power to put us all in our place. Its so simple an equation and yet many don't/won't see God as an option... sad.
I don't worry though, at least not for me...



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