Well I remeber that when I was growing up Religion in school was because children could be given the basic to live a life of moral values and avoid Pedro and Maria to get in the back of the school to have sex and Maria to commit sin and become pregnet outside of " the marriage vows".

Actually it was not Pedron and Maria that got pregnet all the time but actually the most hot couples behind the school were the evangelist.

And becoming pregnet they did.

If fundamentalist think that bringing Religion in the classroom is going to stop sin well. . . No even God coming to earth incarnated and having himself nail to a cross acomplish much in the world.

Churches preaching condemnation and damnation has not done a good job either after centuries.

So their failure to turn the sinner into a God fearing Christian has to be now pinned in the evils of "Darwing teaching Evolution in school"

So In their analogy Sciences is the "Evil of man"

Perhaps Rant you are right.

Creationist has been working hard for evolution to be taken out of schools, since the dark ages for school curriculum in the Reagan years.

They almost got away with it.

Now they see their new found chance with our "born again Chrisitan president" yes I am afraid that this time they will get their wish to push religion in schools in pursue of preaching The Bible studies with the school curriculum.

Originally posted by RANT
First of all, (as Kano pointed out) it's not "Darwinism." It's the scientific theory of evolution.

And it's not the schools job to dumb itself down to the lowest common denominator to make crazy people "happy." We don't stop teaching the fundamentals of math because numbers may hurt some fundamentalists feelings, and we shouldn't stop teaching the fundamentals of biology and life science either, because some people still live in caves, cross their fingers for luck, toss salt over their shoulder and bark at the moon.

Okay, my bad. "The theory of Evolution" it is then.

I wasn't looking to remove science totally from any curriculum. I am not sure what they teach in US schools, but in Ireland we get a good grounding in the three scientific disciplines; Physics, Biology & Chemistry. We never even touched evolution. There is so much else worthwhile stuff there to learn that evolution really gets pushed to the margins.

We also had religion classes. The subject of Intelligent design and/or creationism never got a look in. We were too busy learning about faith, spirituality and good moral and social values to even bother with such hokeyness.

My point is there is no place for either of these subjects in school when there is so much else worthwhile that kids could be learning. It begs the question of why the government seeks to shovel this rubbish into kids heads? They already don't have enough time in school to prepare them for life, and here is Georgie insisting that they now learn both sides of a pretty irrelevant topic.

For what end, only to take away the last scraps of common sense they might have? I'll let you decide, as I'd let you decide yourself from whenst you came, as I seriously don't give an unevolved monkey's uncle about it!!!

What I would like to know is how Mr.Bush would even like to have the kids tested? All answers would just be, " God did it". What creation, of all the ones out there, would he want taught?

Where I live, you get to pick what classes you take, including evolution and religion. So kids can just learn math, a langauge, history, etc. and not even have to touch on origins.

.
First of all Evolution was not 'created' to bash Christian beliefs.
It was simply a logical sounding explanation for what people were finding out about the variety of life forms.

So if some of you Wounded or Offended Christians could kind of get over yourselves this could be high plane discussion.

No one is teaching Evolution to promote an agenda.
People trying to drown out Evolution with ID and other science non-sense do have an agenda.

If Evolution is used to shoe-horn in Religion & other voodoo teaching into public schools then It probably makes more sense to set it aside. I am kind of inclined to agree that there is so-much difficult to refute science like Chemistry & Physics, that spending too much time on evolution is just sucking up oxygen. I think some good civics classes should be included to teach people about business and political ethics and the logic behind them and to teach how our government works.

I guess where you may have problems is in Biology, Genetics and Organic Chemistry. It gets pretty difficult to teach those subjects thoroughly without acknowleging the common chemical underpinnings of all life.

As to Bush and Intelligent Design, Bush and Intelligent don't belong in the same sentence unless you include a big NOT in it.

This is the same guy who took us to War for WMDs that didn't exist,
And didn't lay out any plans for winning over the Iraqi people to the idea of democracy.

Intelligent and Designed/Planned aren't anything Bush has any experience with. Anyone taking Bush's opinion on the matters brings their own intelligence into question.
.

i think you guys should read the quote again

"I think that part of education is to expose people to different schools of thought," Bush said. "You're asking me whether or not people ought to be exposed to different ideas, the answer is yes."

is that not just another typical political answer related to a controversial subject?

As for my position on the subject, I have no problem with them teaching about evolution if the teacher/professor knows what they are talking about. It gets really annoying when they present arguments that they project as conclusive evidence that has been changed, altered or removed 10 years earlier.

So you don't have to teach alternatives to evolution if you treat evolution as what it really is.

[edit on 8/5/2005 by Forgiven]

Originally posted by Forgiven
related to a controversial subject?

The subject is a manufactured controversy.

It begins with exaggerated statements like, "Evolution is just a theory..." and goes downhill from there.

Let me attempt to clarify the point of this forum.

It was not intended as a pulpit from which to bash those who believe in creation, or promote creation ideas, or broadcast evolution science basics, or even to debate the merits on creation over evolution. The point is simple: an organized group of (primarily) non-scientists is using intimidation, harassment, and disinformation in an attempt to remove the teaching of a particular branch of an accepted science from schools, libraries, and museums. That, boys and girls, is a conspiracy and we are a conspiracy website.

I personally feel that if there is a creator, evolution is a brilliant attribute of creation devised to ensure living things continue to adapt and prosper in a continually changing environment. However, science deals with the understanding of what we can quantify through direct observation of evidence, and should not be influenced by matters of faith or dogma and taught as science.

Lets try and keep this forum focused on the developments of this conspiracy.

Originally posted by SkepticOverlord

Originally posted by Forgiven
related to a controversial subject?

The subject is a manufactured controversy.

It begins with exaggerated statements like, "Evolution is just a theory..." and goes downhill from there.

Let me attempt to clarify the point of this forum.

It was not intended as a pulpit from which to bash those who believe in creation, or promote creation ideas, or broadcast evolution science basics, or even to debate the merits on creation over evolution. The point is simple: an organized group of (primarily) non-scientists is using intimidation, harassment, and disinformation in an attempt to remove the teaching of a particular branch of an accepted science from schools, libraries, and museums. That, boys and girls, is a conspiracy and we are a conspiracy website.

exactly.

.
And who will pick and choose those different schools of thought?

How about that 911 was a conspiracy and not done by muslim terrorists? [much as a few of them might have wanted to]

Different school of thought, how about Satanism? That is a school of thought.

Voo Doo anyone?

In science you teach science.
In theology you teach theology.

If you mix the two you degrade both.

Tired of quivering faithless Christians who have to turn creationism into pseudo-science.
Take creation on faith and have peace with that. Faith means you don't have to prove anything to anyone.
Don't let your worries about what science tells us expose your lack of faith.
Quantum Physics teaches us that our minds are incapable of comprehending the totality of reality.

Let science be science.
Let religion be religion.

*muttering* 'Any wonder why i don't look to GW Bush for intellectual guidance?'
.

Originally posted by savagecupid
T.C., I dont have a prob with him listening to his god, I just have a problem when he listens to his god above all others, expecialy when it comes in its current popular interpritation. Gods message should be a background for your life and not a high Db noise telling you what to do. How does he even know if its god he is hearing, could be the devil wispering in his ear instead, seems that way judging from his actions. He should listen to his advisors first, then keep their advice in the context of his religion. Intelligent design is just a backdoor for christianity in schools. I have problems with darwinism myself but its the best theory so far, so we keep testing it until we are sure or not, thats the scientific method and IMO thats better than letting someones interpritation of what should be a very personal relationship, influence our kids. Thats for each parent to deside.

No, he, nor any other Christian, isn't supposed to have God in the background. I don't know where you got that idea, but it wasn't from the Bible. We have enough "Christians" running around with God in the background, and it just doesn't work. Keep God up front, know God's voice and you won't mistake Satan's for the Creator's. Not that I think Dubya is listening too awefully close to the All Mighty, but that isn't what this thread is about, so I'll veer back on track.

You say I.D. is just a backdoor way of getting Christianity into the schools, just asa this Christian nation used to have it? Back when the nation wasn't as screwed up and rudderless as it is today? You are right, Darwinism has some extremely huge holes in its hull, to the point that it won't even float to the level of theory, but it is taught as hard science in the schools, and it can't even stand the Divine competition, not even in a watered-down preparation.

So, let's recap. Until we allowed the revising of the nation's history by the Communist influence mid-way through the last century, God, the Bible and the concept of Creationism was not a problem. Then, regardless of history, we've been told that God is not allowed, the concept of Creation is not allowed, but a new idea, one based on nothing but a hog's tooth at times, is allowed.
They haven't ridded the schools of religion, they just replaced the one that guided this nation through it's best years with their new one; the one that will help bring down this nation. Nothing but a plan, a conspiracy, and some are too "educated" by those controlling the system, now, to see it, and those who do understand are too timid to raise a voice, een though they are in the majority when tax-payers are counted.

Originally posted by RANT
But apparently the President "thinks" differently. He came from dust, is the inbred product of a 6,000 year old rib clone and has a literal apple stuck in his throat. Genius.

Wrong

CNN. Bush declined to go into detail on his personal views of the origin of life.

That's the first flaw in your logic.

Also, we come from dust is something spoken about in the book of Genesis and so happens to be incompatible with ID. Hence to assume that Mr Bush has a Genesis agenda in mind is also incorrect when based on the facts.

And finally, your thinking lacks motive. Are you trying to imply that this course of action is attempted to give the book of Genesis any validity? Because if you are, I find it very tenuous.

If there's any conspiracy at all, it's only about hindering the infallibility of the Bible. Or what was left of it anyway.

If you go through some of the things that have been happening lately you'll find that the Bible doesn't have a very positive future in society and this is far from making that status change.

In conclusion to say that Mr Bush, a warmongering murderer and puppet of secret society S&B, has any intention of "exposing" students to the side of the bible or that he believes in it at all for that matter, only shows a great deal of naiveness on your part.

Originally posted by Thomas Crowne
You are right, Darwinism has some extremely huge holes in its hull,

The theory of evolution(not Darwinism), has become commonly accepted because attempts at falsification have failed.

Originally posted by Thomas Crowne
and it can't even stand the Divine competition

Are you saying there is more proof of creation, than evolution?

Originally posted by Thomas Crowne
to the point that it won't even float to the level of theory,

Definition of theory:

A set of statements or principles devised to explain a group of facts or phenomena, especially one that has been repeatedly tested or is widely accepted and can be used to make predictions about natural phenomena.

Sounds like evolution to me.

Originally posted by Thomas Crowne
God, the Bible and the concept of Creationism was not a problem. Then, regardless of history, we've been told that God is not allowed, the concept of Creation is not allowed, but a new idea, one based on nothing but a hog's tooth at times, is allowed.

The problem with evolution isn't found within evolution, but the disinformation spread by those who would seek to discredit the science. TC, I love you man, but you've gulped some of that Kool-Aid.

Anyway... I've always supported the teaching of religions as components of a curriculum on comparative religious studies. This is where Biblical creation and the other religion's creation stories should be taught... not in a science class.

Originally posted by joyouslyhumored

Originally posted by RANT
But apparently the President "thinks" differently. He came from dust, is the inbred product of a 6,000 year old rib clone and has a literal apple stuck in his throat. Genius.

Wrong

CNN. Bush declined to go into detail on his personal views of the origin of life.

That's the first flaw in your logic.

Awesome. If the first flaw in my logic is a joke at the end of my third post, you must agree with everything I said.

Also, we come from dust is something spoken about in the book of Genesis and so happens to be incompatible with ID.

Although the second thing you said indicates you either don't understand the book of Genesis or Intelligent Design or both.

Allow me to summarize both concepts with three words: God did it.

That's the only "other" theory besides science Bush could possible seek to expose to children.

As I detailed, it doesn't matter if that intelligent designer is a magic five-toed chicken or the God of Genesis, it's all still "god did it" and not a scientific theory.

This thread, indeed in large part this forum, is about the President's sympathies for organized efforts to undermine science and objective reality with mythos and metaphysics. I don't care if Bush is a good Christian or not (whatever you were going on about). Not the point.

He's advocating untestable metaphysics as science in schools. He should just push for philosophy & comparative religion studies (as those are actually useful), but that would likely require funding and not appease the organized conspirators (his fundamentalist base) seeking to overthrow science and indoctrinate "god did it" as a scientific theory.

Now. Did you have any pertinent thoughts to share?

[edit on 6-8-2005 by RANT]

And, Bill, I love you, man, but if they say it, you believe it without looking too hard at the holes in the "science".

Yes, by the way, there is science that backs up Intelligent Design. However, this is covered up by the disinformation spread by those who prefer their Evolution religion being the only religion taught in the science class.
Science should be regulated to only the hard sciences, and Evolution relegated to World Religions class.

I'm done, I'll not be trading snippets nor will I bother anyone in this particular forum again. A total waste of time created to further a cause that I am objective enough not to buy. No Kool-Aide here, just spring water. Spring water, rain water and pure grain alcohol.

Fine, and I will go into history and teach that Hitler didn't commit the Holocaust of the jews, it was aliens.

Then I will go into math class and kill kids because they think 2+2=4 when in fact it equals 17.

You see, if you teach bull# in one class you might as well teach bull# in every class. So leave BS out of science and we will leave you people alone to drink the kool-aid because the aliens are behind the comet.

I have never been able to regard Mr. Bush as an intelligent person, when it comes to making a point and using his rational thoughts.

Like I said before his is trying to give some hopes to the same groups that gave him the vote.

What is going on in our schools and the government?

Well if we see that most people or parents are to busy to care what the children are learning in school about creation or evolution, that will be actually true.

But we have a very strong Fundamentalist Movement that is doing all the care for you.

Their sole purpose is to impose on the nation and by political means, the Bible even if they are to employ the The Law to back them up.

They don’t want nobody to challenge the The Creation stories of the Bible just because is in the bible.

The base for their assault is on that “Separation of religion and State doesn’t exist and that The Moral Majority have the right to impose their values on everyone by Law.

They spend their time looking for controvercies and inconsistencies no matter how small to degrade and challenge “Real Science”.

This people wants to teach children that creation is a “Valid Science” and to take away the process that make “Real Science” to stop the encouraging of free thinking and independence.

Instead of “Observations” the creationist in Schools want “Prayers” instead of “Theories” they want “Faith”

What is their hidden political agenda

The Creationist want to take over the The Republican Party and the White House fundamentalist want nothing more that the establishment of a theocreacy.

Are they winning?

Well fundamentalist already are in the Republican Party disguised as “Extremist Conservatives” they are Well finance, Organized and Focus.

This Religious rights groups are using Politics to target our local governments and schools. They want to “Reshape Society” starting from grade school.
They are also call the The Reconstructionist and Philosophy is their motto. To put it in lame words “The Domination of Society in the name of God and with the help of the Government.

Groupies:

What makes Bush think that Intelligent Design must ALWAYS default back to the 2 contradictory Creation Myths of the Jews? They both make for VERY bad science, as anyone with two eyes can see at once.

There is very little useful scientific intelligence in the Book of Genesis....it is more a book of morality, and outdated and superficial TRIBAL morality at that...

Let's see.....well, for one thing, Gen 1:3 "and Elohim created the Firmament..."

NEWSFLASH: there aint no Firmament up there (Heb. Raqiaq or "inverted bowl"): the blue sky is gaseous and NOT SOLID like other ancient middle eastern illiterate shamans seem to have believed...and the writer of Genesis chapter one knew no better than they....and as for the SUN and the MOON and the STARS----what scientist today would declare that these heavenly bodies were somehow created AFTER vegetation appeared? Read it and weep in Genesis chapter 1:5-9

By the way, for all you Bible believing innocents out ther...the sky above your heads is not BLUE because there is water above the Firmament either....geesh!!

And are you telling me that those who would follow Mr Bush blindly into places like Iraq want our children to believe this unscientific nonsense in the classroom as THE ONLY Alternative to Darwin? If you want creation myths, the world has more than 8,000 of them from the Popol Vuh to the Enuma Elish.

Seems like the writer of Genesis chapter one (the same author who gave us the Hebrew book of Hezekiel around 540 BC) needed some basic science class info under his belt before he started writing his Spring Fertility Hymn of Creation....which reads more like a sung-chanted liturgical poem with all its tiresome antiphony than modern science that could give Darwin a run for his shillings..

What is worse...the two creation myths of the Jews (e.g. the ones found in Genesis chapter 1 compared with chapter 2) are clearly at odds with one another in form and content, as anychild with half a brain can see---go ahead start comparing chapter 1:1 to 2:4a and 2:4b to the end of chatper 4----even casually:

(e.g. notice the list of unscientific creation-order in Genesis chapter 1 and the other kind of cutsie "stories of origins" found beginning in Genesis chapter 2:4a:

...for example (now Kiddies, get your King James Bibles out, especially all you non-paleo Hebrew reading people !!) and read....in chapter one, "male and female" are created together "after our likenesses", being the last in the series of creative acts in day 6:the same writer (i.e. who wrote the book of Hezekiel, i.e. same vocabulary, same spelling, same theology, same syntax, same word order, same sentence lengths etc.) continues in Gen. chapter 5 where ADAM is made BOTH MALE AND FEMALE... (and "he called THEIR name Adam..") i.e. referred to sort of collectively as "mankind"...hey what happend to Hayyah (Eve)?

You really gotta love Ezra (the Final Scribal Editor of Genesis chapters 1-11) when he drank that firey liquid during the Exile...!

Whereas... in chapter 2, aka the SECOND CREATION MYTH of the JEWS, we have Adam (singular) as a kind of solitary gardner tending a misty mudpatch from an earth already in place....who was "formed from the mud" and YHWH breathed into his nostrils the breath of life" and other such mythological underpinnings.... only then are the animals (also made of mud) brought to him for naming and xxxx and then ONLY later after "no helper could be found for the man" is "Hayyah" (Eve )created out of his "side..." to be a kind of scrubwoman for the man, I suppose...)...

Now I am the first to admit that "Evolution by random natural selection" leaves a lot to be desired as a complete theory of how life came to be ordered on this insignificant little old planet...certainly we can argue for a collective "intelligent" mind or even some kind of telepathic communication between members of certain species (e.g. insects that form themselves into elaborate flower designs etc. )...and I would even be open to a greater mind behind all physically manifested entities on the planet...call it a GAIA theory if you want...but men from mud, and women from ribs, I mean, really !!

Persons like Bush and his illiterate ilk are loudly barking up the wrong tree if they think for a moment that we can find any useful scientific information from the racist writings of the Jews in such fragments as Bere#h ("Genesis") --especially if we want to know anything about how the real-world actually got here and sustains itself---

Do any of you REALLY think we should be teaching our 21st century modern schoolchildren such racist "chosen people" vomit whose viscious clan god likes nothing better than to exterminate the Amalekites and whose main occupation seems to be measuring specially dyed temple curtains and counting cubits ad nauseam in between ordering Moses to make bronze snake idol thingies and put them up on poles in the desert to burn incense to in order to ward off snake bite (along with giving marching orders for how best to genocide the Amorites and the Jebusites--- for kicks and grins, that is...or maybe comedy relief?)

Intelligent Design...maybe. But keep the myths of ancient illiterate semi nomads out of the discussion, please !!

We don't need these insults tossed into this discussion.

The point of this forum is the conspiracy to replace the teaching of science with a non-scientific belief system... not your distaste for that belief system.

Originally posted by RANT
Awesome. If the first flaw in my logic is a joke at the end of my third post, you must agree with everything I said.

You're absolutely right! Which is why I only posted the part I didn't agree with.

I agree with almost everything you have to you say (save your jokes?). The notion that this course of action is indeed religious or about promoting mythos and metaphysics, as you've put it, is absolutely correct. The notion that it has anything to do with the Bible is wrong. Hence my post and my theory. If you can't understand my zeal for the Bible, and you probably wouldn't, how can you expect me to understand yours for science ?

A "heckler". Seriously, do you read your posts after you write them?

Although the second thing you said indicates you either don't understand the book of Genesis or Intelligent Design or both.

Allow me to summarize both concepts with three words: God did it.

I strongly resent that assumption. You see it's alot more complicated than that. In your own words, The Jewish version is not any different than Mayans version. Why? They both share the same concept. And yet you'll never hear a christian going on about the Mayan version now will you?

The fact that they both share the concept, that God did it, doesn't make them compatible at all. That would be like saying, "Hey lets start teaching the Mayan version of creation at Sunday School because the share the same concept". There are many things that share the same concepts and yet we just don't assume they're the same thing.

This thread, indeed in large part this forum, is about the President's sympathies for organized efforts to undermine science and objective reality with mythos and metaphysics. I don't care if Bush is a good Christian or not (whatever you were going on about). Not the point.

Indeed that may not be the point of this thread or forum. But that was part of your theory that Bush was promoting Genesis. The question is, if he isn't a christian why would he do that? He's promoting something and from what I've seen him bow down to at the Grove I doubt it has anything to do with Jesus or the Bible.


[edit on 8-8-2005 by joyouslyhumored]