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SCI/TECH: Brainwashing, for a Better Body

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posted on Aug, 6 2005 @ 12:42 AM
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Originally posted by cybertroy
Pain/drug hypnosis = bad. Using pain, drugs and trauma is going in the wrong direction, you are moving away from awareness. Don't be fooled, this is not a valid treatment...


I agree with you on this 99%. It's Not a recommended treatment. To be perfectly clear, I was not implying that a person should do it...

However, the point I was making is that Pain/drug+hypnosis will have longlasting a effect on the patient or victime or person who undergoes such treatment consciously voluntary or involuntary...




posted on Aug, 6 2005 @ 04:33 PM
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I can't believe I missed this.......many excellent points all around.....but I have to pick my favorite...


Originally posted by mwen
If something like is being reveal public than there is already a far more advance procedure that can produce a more effective and efficient (good/evil) results...


Absolutely this is true. And the logical question necessitated is what do they have? WyrdeOne says that we still have a lot to learn about memory and the brain, but I contend that what is understood on a professional and experimental level is light years ahead of what the public thinks or believes.

And why would the government or whatever vested interests release information that can effect the habits of unwitting persons. This is where the ethical questions come into play......but can the morality of a situation be qualified if the techniques and fundamental concepts are not publicly held. This opens the door for the so-called secret societies to operate with impunity........the effectiveness of hypnosis in concert with sleep manipulations is a powerful one indeed.

The ethics in this circumstance are irrelevant. The should or shouldn't we is a trepidation that cannot be afforded. Many people have access to information that would shed a whole new light on many basic aspects of our society. An ATSNN submission up for vote details a group of scientists that are being taught to write screenplays for Hollywood. The goal: To glorify science and scientific careers to the young adult population to stimulate the pursuit of such in real life. The implication: That regular medias and entertainments have been targeted by the government to manipulate the minds of the masses.

In short......the applications that we are theorizing upon are already in force and in the case I just cited, it's not necassarily more advanced tech/info that is our downfall, but the widespread ignnorance of the population to basic psychological and neurophysiological processes.......

Edit to include link...www.abovetopsecret.com...

[edit on 6-8-2005 by MemoryShock]



posted on Aug, 6 2005 @ 11:39 PM
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Let me be very clear to those who might see this therapy as good. There is nothing good about brainwashing. You are just putting more trash in your mind, which allready has enough trash. Stay very far away from this type of therapy.

Troy



posted on Aug, 7 2005 @ 01:16 AM
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All of the points that I would have liked to have made have been made my the likes of mwen and MemoryShock - whom share my beleifs and interests in Mind-Control conspiracies etc (would i be incorrect to assume so?)

So on account of that, I will direct people to this thread - which may be of interested... and a few other links aswell

ATS Thread: The Illuminati Formula used to Create an Undetectable Total Mind Controlled Slave

Now while I dont beleive that this "Brainwashing for a Better Body" is a conspiracy... I do think it is the tip of the ice-berg as far as "Brainwashing" is concerned...

A few links
Spin Programing
Svali Speaks

Seriously people, we are living in scary times...



posted on Aug, 7 2005 @ 01:02 PM
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Originally posted by ghostsoldier
All of the points that I would have liked to have made have been made my the likes of mwen and MemoryShock - whom share my beleifs and interests in Mind-Control conspiracies etc (would i be incorrect to assume so?)


Your correct!

The thread and the link about the Spin Programming talk about some of the more advanced form of brainwashing...

They make the people being brainwashed sound like a bunch of computers where they would input or installed different type of softwares....which is kind ingeniusly scary...



posted on Aug, 7 2005 @ 01:29 PM
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The name of the book being discussed from the above Thread is called,
The Illuminati Formula Used to Create an Undetectable Total Mind Controlled Slave by Fritz Springmeier & Cisco Wheeler:

Chapter 4. Science No 4 - Hypnosis Understanding the Basics About Hypnosis

Dissociation is used as a defense to protect a person from overwhelming pain and trauma. It is a natural ability of the brain. Hypnosis or hypnotic trance is a form of dissociation. There are a number of types of dissociation: amnesia, somnambulistic states, localized paralyses, anesthesias, and hallucinations. Hypnosis can reproduce all of these dissociative states. The mind naturally hypnotizes itself under various conditions. Perhaps the reader has been driving along a familiar road and the next thing you knew you were arriving home, having driven in a trance. Now let’s suppose you are driving to a movie and you are discussing next week’s plans with your wife. The complex thinking required to drive just happens. You are awake talking to your wife, and yet on another level you were in trance driving the car. You as a subject were both in hypnotic trance (driving) and awake (talking about plans)...[read the rest from the link below]

www.whale.to...



posted on Aug, 7 2005 @ 01:29 PM
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Originally posted by ghostsoldier
All of the points that I would have liked to have made have been made my the likes of mwen and MemoryShock - whom share my beleifs and interests in Mind-Control conspiracies etc (would i be incorrect to assume so?)


You would be correct to assume so, though I feel that the lacking of a Mind Control Forum on ATS highly limits the amount of concentration one here can give to the subject.....we need a forum so that we can pick apart the fallacies and analyze the variations in individuality/application, etc...in one place.

There is a thread in the BB&Q forum asking for New Forum ideas....please post your support there.....www.abovetopsecret.com...

Now....back to our regularly scheduled thread...


[edit on 7-8-2005 by MemoryShock]



posted on Aug, 7 2005 @ 01:50 PM
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I think a person is better off hypnosizing him/herself rather than letting someone else doing it to them...

All a person really need is to bring him/herself into an alpha (trance) state, and play a recorded suggestion of his or her's using his/her own voice...

It work best if that person did that right before he/she goes to sleep...

However, there are some risks as well, when it come to self-hypnosis!



posted on Aug, 7 2005 @ 02:02 PM
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ghostsoldier
Thanks for posting those links.


MemoryShock


Absolutely this is true. And the logical question necessitated is what do they have? WyrdeOne says that we still have a lot to learn about memory and the brain, but I contend that what is understood on a professional and experimental level is light years ahead of what the public thinks or believes.


Yeah, this goes without saying, 'they' always have technology and understanding that the general population does not. However, in truth, there is quite a bit that nobody knows. The brain is a rabit warren of inter-dependent connections and operations, studying its operations and construction is a life-long endeavor practically guaranteed to fail.

It's the most complex object I've ever had the pleasure of trying to understand. First, there's the uniqueness of each individual's brain. Then there's the inter-dependency issue - even if you figure out how one area functions, you have to understand how it relates to all the other pieces of the puzzle before you can appreciate the full spectrum of functions being served.

This is not as simple as just observing EKG readings or doing a biopsy. It's nearly as complicated a system as our DNA, another element of our physical form we have only scratched the surface of.

One point that startles me is that brainwashing is not specificaly prohibited under the law in most places, and deprogramming is illegal almost everywhere. This seems very strange to me.



And why would the government or whatever vested interests release information that can effect the habits of unwitting persons.


They wouldn't, and they don't. However, one can learn how to brainwash and deprogram people simply by reading books on the subject. This is one of those cases where we know how to do it, we just don't know exactly how it works. Of course, most people know about as much about brainwashing as they do about other obscure subjects, namely nothing. This is likely always going to be the case. This is where the media comes in.

The media is supposed to disseminate necessary knowledge to people, so that they can survive and thrive. The media is not doing their job, not by a long stretch. So, that critical element is missing. If the media was owned by the people, instead of private interests, the programming would no doubt include primers on critical thinking.



This is where the ethical questions come into play......but can the morality of a situation be qualified if the techniques and fundamental concepts are not publicly held.


No, indeed it can't. This is the disconnect between those in the know, and those who are distracted and manipulated. The latter have little power over the former, whereas the former can predict with startling accuracy the behaviors and needs of the latter. It's a very unbalanced situation, to be sure, a bit like two Kung-Fu masters facing off, where one knows the style of his opponent, and the other knows only his own style. If you don't know brainwash Kung-Fu, you're powerless against it.

Ever try explaining the concept of media ownership detracting from the quality of programming, with the average American voter? Total disconnect.



This opens the door for the so-called secret societies to operate with impunity........the effectiveness of hypnosis in concert with sleep manipulations is a powerful one indeed.


There's also the stress element to consider. People who are stressed out are operating on a more instinctive level of their consciousness, and this makes them easy to predict, manipulate, and deceive.

The war on terror, and the resulting hysteria, can best be understood as a war on consciousness. The majority of Americans are already casualties.



Many people have access to information that would shed a whole new light on many basic aspects of our society.


Yes, but by design, those with the information are least inclined or least able to put it to good use or distribute it widely. As I said, the war is in full swing.



An ATSNN submission up for vote details a group of scientists that are being taught to write screenplays for Hollywood. The goal: To glorify science and scientific careers to the young adult population to stimulate the pursuit of such in real life. The implication: That regular medias and entertainments have been targeted by the government to manipulate the minds of the masses.


Yes, I saw that, it was interesting how brazen these sorts of manipulations are recently. Of course, the justification is part and parcel of the act, so there is no question in 99% of the people. They've been trained to accept things at face value, and discouraged from peeling back the surface.



In short......the applications that we are theorizing upon are already in force and in the case I just cited, it's not necassarily more advanced tech/info that is our downfall, but the widespread ignnorance of the population to basic psychological and neurophysiological processes.......


No doubt. These two examples, strawberry ice cream and science movies, pale in comparison to the true violations.

The military has long been using some of the less subtle methods to 'break' the will of recruits, that it might reform them into soldiers over the course of their 6 week stay in hell. Similarly, cults destroy the individual in order to ease transition into the group.

The more brutal techniques are the most effective, but the subtle methods under discussion are far more insidious, because you never see 'em coming.



posted on Aug, 7 2005 @ 03:38 PM
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Originally posted by WyrdeOne
It's the most complex object I've ever had the pleasure of trying to understand.


Agreed. You not only have to understand the physical movement of the information, but attempt to classify information based on chemical/electro markers......the fun part is when you start looking at association and start relating on a physical level why one piece of information can be directed with the interpretation of another.....I'm having fun with that in my attempts to work out effects of subliminals. Basically, a 'mechanical' stimulii and its corrosponding interpretation gets associated immediately with an emotional marker.....kind of like the reptilian brain interpreting the threat or lack thereof regarding a situation and then having the mammalian brain getting it's turn....the neomammalian is still a work in process....

And that is the basis of a lot of 'brainwashing' techniques......get the reptilian brain in control of the physical reaction while turning off the mammalian as much as possible. As noted, individuality heavily effects this and that is why the idea of subliminals and mind control can be discarded so readily by the majority......there is no universal definite in the application on a general scale. I could get into another spiel on intelligence being a defense mechanism...but long and drawn out...


Originally posted by WyrdeOne
Then there's the inter-dependency issue - even if you figure out how one area functions, you have to understand how it relates to all the other pieces of the puzzle before you can appreciate the full spectrum of functions being served.


Absolutely....which brings to light exactly how valuable recorded knowledge is. Individuality aside, there are some basic rules and some basic structures......understanding these will help effect greater understanding in people with access to this cumulative knowledge.....I keep finding new terms that I was unaware of and new applications......despite my self proclaimed awareness, I am far behind in terms of what has been established...


Originally posted by WyrdeOne
One point that startles me is that brainwashing is not specificaly prohibited under the law in most places, and deprogramming is illegal almost everywhere. This seems very strange to me.


Seems strange to me as well.......I didn't know that, thanks



Originally posted by WyrdeOne
The media is not doing their job, not by a long stretch. So, that critical element is missing. If the media was owned by the people, instead of private interests, the programming would no doubt include primers on critical thinking.


I happen to think they are doing their job....and very well. If you determine that a politicians speech is usually fraught with ideology and ambiguities, then the reporting of this keeps the public uninformed and distracted with irrelevancies.......ethics of this and that are highly propagated because they inspire opinions.....opinions based on the limited knowledge available. If people are constantly referring to "How they feel," about a given situation, then they are effectively negating their own reality......


Originally posted by WyrdeOne
It's a very unbalanced situation, to be sure, a bit like two Kung-Fu masters facing off, where one knows the style of his opponent, and the other knows only his own style. If you don't know brainwash Kung-Fu, you're powerless against it.


I can really appreciate the use of this analogy...
I just began Aikido lessons and the ability to understand the movement of the body (natural inclinations towards interpretation) and the anticipation (ability to form thoughts prior; i.e. non-reactive) are very important. They need to be practiced or your going to be stuck....stuck referring to how a situation makes you feel as opposed to the logic.....


Originally posted by WyrdeOne
Ever try explaining the concept of media ownership detracting from the quality of programming, with the average American voter?


.....yup.


Originally posted by WyrdeOne
There's also the stress element to consider. People who are stressed out are operating on a more instinctive level of their consciousness, and this makes them easy to predict, manipulate, and deceive.[my emphasis]


I could also point to certain dietary habits that help lock that into their physicality....the stimulation of certain hormones by certain chemicals or the encouragement of a particualr state help to create the default behaviour onto this instinctual level.....which helps to negate higher cognitive functions. Soda and dehydration immediately comes to mind in this respect.......the greater liklihood of having a particular chemical interplay in an individual allows for a greater liklihood of the general brainwashing techniques to work.....even the basic tactic of repetition.


Originally posted by WyrdeOne
The war on terror, and the resulting hysteria, can best be understood as a war on consciousness. The majority of Americans are already casualties.


Agreed.


Originally posted by WyrdeOne
The more brutal techniques are the most effective, but the subtle methods under discussion are far more insidious, because you never see 'em coming.


Interesting distinction...valid of course, but interestiong in that human rights are usually discussed with in concert to the brutal techniques and the subtle techniques are well and good....

The rabbit hole is deep....indeed.



posted on Aug, 8 2005 @ 03:01 AM
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Originally posted by WyrdeOne
One point that startles me is that brainwashing is not specificaly prohibited under the law in most places, and deprogramming is illegal almost everywhere. This seems very strange to me.



Originally posted by MemoryShock
Seems strange to me as well.......I didn't know that, thanks



Does anyone have any information sources I could follow up on this... Seems to me like the government (or whatever is responsible) is covering their @ss's on this one... Think about it, Psychologists and other "professionals" would come across brainwashed (in the classical sense of the word) people all the time...

Under the law, they are prohibited from de-programming these people... Why would that be? ... To cover their tracks ... To prevent the loss of (human) assets...

I hope some others can see where I am going with this... And seeing as how I dont live in America - perhaps someone with more knowledge of the inner workings of your system could give me some info as to why such laws are in place?! ...

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Also, as someone mentioned earlier...

Fear and Trauma... Both are used to create an aura of fear, paranoia and hysteria... Why do you think the American populous supported the Iraq War, basically just after 9/11 and the WMD scare...

Yet to this day, the government hasn't issued a statement saying they were completely incorrect and lied to the people to get into that country...

I've said this a many times on behalf of Noam Chomsky when he said something to the effect of; "The more you make the people scared of Aliens, Crime, Communists and Terrorists - the more control you have over them..."

Which is entirely true, look at whats happening in Brittan at the moment, their current anti-"extremism" legislatures... Whereby almost anyone speaking out against the government can be deported on charges of Facilitating, Supporting, or Inticing people into acts of "extremism"...

Just wait for the other countries to follow...



posted on Aug, 8 2005 @ 03:12 AM
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ghostsoldier
Check out this link for some information on deprograming, and the lengths some groups have gone to persecute the people doing it.

en.wikipedia.org...

The Rick Ross case is quite interesting, because it shows perfectly the sort of legal extortion our money-driven justice system allows. If you can afford the price tag of a few premium lawyers, you can sue just about anyone into the dirt.

Also notice the case of Ted Patrick. He was convicted of kidnapping.

Basically, it's illegal. However, if you absolutely must deprogram people, don't deprogram the disciples of moneyed cults, because they'll grind you into paste with their giant checkbooks.

[edit on 8-8-2005 by WyrdeOne]



posted on Aug, 8 2005 @ 03:43 AM
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Originally posted by WyrdeOne
ghostsoldier
Check out this link for some information on deprograming, and the lengths some groups have gone to persecute the people doing it.

en.wikipedia.org...

The Rick Ross case is quite interesting, because it shows perfectly the sort of legal extortion our money-driven justice system allows. If you can afford the price tag of a few premium lawyers, you can sue just about anyone into the dirt.

Also notice the case of Ted Patrick. He was convicted of kidnapping.

Basically, it's illegal. However, if you absolutely must deprogram people, don't deprogram the disciples of moneyed cults, because they'll grind you into paste with their giant checkbooks.




During the 1990s, Rick Ross, a noted cult intervention advocate who allegedly took part in a number of deprogramming sessions, was sued by a former member of a group called the Life Tabernacle Church after an attempt at intervention was unsuccessful. He was ordered to pay damages of about $5 million, though this amount was later rescinded. This legal case was expanded to include a prominent anti-cult group called the Cult Awareness Network (CAN). The judgement was used to force CAN into bankruptcy, and its name and assets were purchased by a representative of the Church of Scientology, which had been frequently criticized by CAN, shortly afterwards. This case was seen as effectively closing the door on the practice of deprogramming.


That seems way too suss to me... I would be interested in seeing who was under effective control of the Church of Scientology... I am sure we would find that; that particular rabbit hole would go quite deep...

Does anyone know of any cases in which people have deliberately infiltrated cults in an attempt to expose them for what they are... I am sure all kinds of problems would arrise, the most predominant complication I could forsee taking place, would be the age old maxim of "You are what you eat..." - More precicely, you would virtually have to become sucked into the cult in order to get inside the the circle of trust... You could see where such a task becomes dangerous...

The thing I am finding interesting, is the constant references to Religion and God... Would I be incorrect in assuming that God and Religion are uses predominantly as a means to an end... The concept of God being "all-seeing" and "all-powerful" would be something a sicko would use to program people - particularly younger children...

*Suddenly I have a flash of George W. in my mind again*

Ive read a decent chunk of that "Svali Speaks" thing aswell as some other stuff... And its pretty scary stuff to me, and it is easy to see why some people are scared (thats the way it comes across to me) to discuss these kind of things... People prefer to put these kind of things in the realm of super-natural movie concepts, rather than for what it is...

Shows like Law and Order: SVU dont just make for good television, they generally give a glossed over and M-Rated version of some of the things that really do take place in this society... And not to shed light on these shadows would be an injustice to the victims out there...



posted on Aug, 8 2005 @ 04:04 AM
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Well, it happens, yeah.

The FBI said it infiltrated Waco, and spied on Koresh.

www.time.com...

And then there's the time Alex Jones infiltrated Bohemian Grove, don't know if that counts...

Also, I found this claim that the KGB infiltrated a new-age cult..
www.carpenoctem.tv...

Here's a story about some Calgary Sun reporters who infiltrated the Raelians..
www.calgarysun.com...

There's probably a lot more instances, but there's a few to get you started.



posted on Aug, 10 2005 @ 04:53 PM
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Originally posted by ghostsoldier

The thing I am finding interesting, is the constant references to Religion and God... Would I be incorrect in assuming that God and Religion are uses predominantly as a means to an end... The concept of God being "all-seeing" and "all-powerful" would be something a sicko would use to program people - particularly younger children...

*Suddenly I have a flash of George W. in my mind again*




So you are claiming that all modern religion is brainwashing? In today's era of science and separation of church and state, many people tend to assume that the intent of religion is a bad thing, to brainwash innocent people that otherwise would be "good" people ... but that's hardly the case at all.

It used to be that religion was an escape from the mortal fears of men (and women), that they could overcome their own inadequacies or confusions by having faith in some sort of being that was greater than all mankind. Having a single unified God further cleared up potential disagreements within the many god systems.

When I was a kid, I attended church every Sunday on the orders of my parents. I also excelled at science in school.

I recall there was a point I think it was in 6th grade when I decided that there were too many major differences between what I was learning in school and what I was learning at church, and I objected so strongly that I brokered peace accords with my father to allow me to no longer attend Sunday School in return for playing in the church handbell choir.

No, not all children can be brainwashed (perhaps a form of Darwinism?). Of course you might claim that I was brainwashed by science. This is potentially true but if that were indeed the case then all of our scientists are out of jobs.



posted on Aug, 10 2005 @ 08:55 PM
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Originally posted by grad_student
So you are claiming that all modern religion is brainwashing? In today's era of science and separation of church and state, many people tend to assume that the intent of religion is a bad thing, to brainwash innocent people that otherwise would be "good" people ... but that's hardly the case at all.


No, no, no... Thats not what I meant at all, I'm sorry if it came across unclear...

What I was trying to convey was: Is religion (more importantly religious ideoligies) used in the process of brainwashing AS A TOOL... I did not want to come across as saying "religion is all about brainwashing" because I disagree completely with such a statement...

Sorry for the crossed wires...




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