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Jehovah's Witness's (NWT) Flawed??

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posted on Aug, 2 2005 @ 11:42 PM
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Jehovah's Witness's


Was Jesus just a god, or was he God. Let's see what the Word has to say. I always love when Jehovah's Witness's come by my house, when I show them that they are taking the word of a known thief and charlatan via the early 1900's, they argue, then you show them the Greek......

Funny thing is I never get mad, but they never seem to come back..hmmm



Is the New World Translation flawed? Its less than 100 years old or so...and yet we have texts that predate even Islam..


hmmm take a look and see for yourself,


John 1:1

(New World Translation) In [the] beginning the Word was, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god.



The other Translations....

(ACV) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

(ALT) In the beginning was the Word [or, the Expression of [divine] Logic], and the Word was with [or, in communion with] God, and the Word was God [or, was as to His essence God].

(AUV-NT) The Word [already] existed in the beginning [of time]. [Note: This is a reference to the preexistence of Jesus. See verse 14]. And the Word was with God and the Word was [what] God [was].

(ANT) In die begin was die Woord daar, en die Woord was by God, en die Woord was self God.

(AOT) In die begin was die Woord, en die Woord was by God, en die Woord was God.

(AOV) In die begin was die Woord, en die Woord was by God, en die Woord was God.

(ASV) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

(BBE) From the first he was the Word, and the Word was in relation with God and was God.

(BCN) Yn y dechreuad yr oedd y Gair; yr oedd y Gair gyda Duw, a Duw oedd y Gair.

(VW-Edition) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

(Bishops) In the begynnyng was the worde, & the worde was with God: and that worde was God.

(CEV) In the beginning was the one who is called the Word. The Word was with God and was truly God.

(CENT) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

(Complete Apostles' Bible) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

(CUV-S) 太初有道,道与神同在,道就是神。

(CUV-T) 太初有道,道與神同在,道就是神。

(Dansk) I Begyndelsen var Ordet, og Ordet var hos Gud, og Ordet var Gud.

(DRB) In the beginning was the Word: and the Word was with God: and the Word was God.

(DSV) In den beginne was het Woord, en het Woord was bij God, en het Woord was God.

(EMTV) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

(ESV) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

(FDB) Au commencement était la Parole; et la Parole était auprès de Dieu; et la Parole était Dieu.

(FLS) Au commencement était la Parole, et la Parole était avec Dieu, et la Parole était Dieu.

(FPR) Alussa oli Sana, ja Sana oli Jumalan tykönä, ja Sana oli Jumala.

(GB) In the beginning was that Word, and that Word was with God, and that Word was God.

(GEB) Im Anfang war das Wort, und das Wort war bei Gott, und das Wort war Gott.

(Geneva) In the beginning was that Word, and that Word was with God, and that Word was God.

(GLB) Im Anfang war das Wort, und das Wort war bei Gott, und Gott war das Wort.

(GNB) In the beginning the Word already existed; the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

(GNT) ᾿Εν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ Λόγος, καὶ ὁ Λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν Θεόν, καὶ Θεὸς ἦν ὁ Λόγος.

(GNT+) εν1722 PREP αρχη746 N-DSF ην2258 V-IXI-3S ο3588 T-NSM λογος3056 N-NSM και2532 CONJ ο3588 T-NSM λογος3056 N-NSM ην2258 V-IXI-3S προς4314 PREP τον3588 T-ASM θεον2316 N-ASM και2532 CONJ θεος2316 N-NSM ην2258 V-IXI-3S ο3588 T-NSM λογος3056 N-NSM

(GNT-TR) εν αρχη ην ο λογος και ο λογος ην προς τον θεον και θεος ην ο λογος

(GNT-TR+) εν1722 PREP αρχη746 N-DSF ην2258 V-IXI-3S ο3588 T-NSM λογος3056 N-NSM και2532 CONJ ο3588 T-NSM λογος3056 N-NSM ην2258 V-IXI-3S προς4314 PREP τον3588 T-ASM θεον2316 N-ASM και2532 CONJ θεος2316 N-NSM ην2258 V-IXI-3S ο3588 T-NSM λογος3056 N-NSM

(GNT-V) εν αρχη ην ο λογος και ο λογος ην προς τον θεον και θεος ην ο λογος

(GNT-WH+) εν1722 PREP αρχη746 N-DSF ην2258 V-IXI-3S ο3588 T-NSM λογος3056 N-NSM και2532 CONJ ο3588 T-NSM λογος3056 N-NSM ην2258 V-IXI-3S προς4314 PREP τον3588 T-ASM θεον2316 N-ASM και2532 CONJ θεος2316 N-NSM ην2258 V-IXI-3S ο3588 T-NSM λογος3056 N-NSM

(G-NT-TR (Steph)+) εν In 1722 PREP αρχη the beginning 746 N-DSF ην was 2258 V-IXI-3S ο the 3588 T-NSM λογος Word 3056 N-NSM και and 2532 CONJ ο the 3588 T-NSM λογος Word 3056 N-NSM ην was 2258 V-IXI-3S προς with 4314 PREP τον the 3588 T-ASM θεον God 2316 N-ASM και and 2532 CONJ θεος God 2316 N-NSM ην was 2258 V-IXI-3S ο 3588 T-NSM λογος Word. 3056 N-NSM

(GW) In the beginning the Word already existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was God.

(HCSB) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

(HNV) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

(HOT)

(IBIS) Pada mulanya, sebelum dunia dijadikan, Sabda sudah ada. Sabda ada bersama Allah dan Sabda sama dengan Allah.

(IRL) Nel principio era la Parola, e la Parola era con Dio, e la Parola era Dio.

(ISV) In the beginning, the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was God.

(JPS)

(KJ2000) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

(KJVCNT) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

(KJV+TVM) In1722 the beginning746 was2258 [5713] the Word3056, and2532 the Word3056 was2258 [5713] with4314 God2316, and2532 the Word3056 was2258 [5713] God2316.

(KJV) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

(KJV+) In1722 the beginning746 was2258 the3588 Word,3056 and2532 the3588 Word3056 was2258 with4314 God,2316 and2532 the3588 Word3056 was2258 God.2316

(KJVA) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

(KJVR) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

(KKJV) 처음에 말씀이 계시니라. 이 말씀이 하나님과 함께 계셨으니 이 말씀은 곧 하나님이시니라.

(LBLA) En el principio existía el Verbo, y el Verbo estaba con Dios, y el Verbo era Dios.

(LONT) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

(LXX)

(Metaglottisis) Στην αρχή ήταν ο Λόγος, και ο Λόγος ήταν προς το Θεό, και Θεός ήταν ο Λόγος.

(MKJV) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

(MRC) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

(MSG) The Word was first, the Word present to God, God present to the Word. The Word was God,

(Murdock) In the beginning, was the Word; and the Word was with God; and the Word was God.

(NAB) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

(NASB) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

(NET) In the beginning1 was the Word, and the Word was with God,2 and the Word was fully God.3

(NIV) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

(NKJV) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

(NLT) In the beginning the Word already existed. He was with God, and he was God.

(Norsk) I begynnelsen var Ordet, og Ordet var hos Gud, og Ordet var Gud.

(NRSV) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

(PBG) Na początku było Słowo, a ono Słowo było u Boga, a Bogiem było ono Słowo.

(RDCT) La început era Cuvîntul, şi Cuvîntul era cu Dumnezeu, şi Cuvîntul era Dumnezeu.

(Rev. Webster+) In1722 the beginning746 was2258 [5713] the Word3056, and2532 the Word3056 was2258 [5713] with4314 God2316, and2532 the Word3056 was2258 [5713] God2316.

(RYLT-NT) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God;

(ROB) La început era Cuvântul şi Cuvântul era la Dumnezeu şi Dumnezeu era Cuvântul.

(RST) В начале было Слово, и Слово было у Бога, и Слово было Бог.

(RSV) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

(RSVA) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

(RusVZh+) В1722 начале746 было2258, 3588 Слово3056, и2532, 3588 Слово3056 было2258 у4314, 3588 Бога2316, и2532, 3588 Слово3056 было2258 Бог2316.

(Schlachter) Im Anfang war das Wort, und das Wort war bei Gott, und das Wort war Gott.

(TR) en arxh hn o logov kai o logov hn prov ton qeon kai qeov hn o logov

(SRV) EN el principio era el Verbo, y el Verbo era con Dios, y el Verbo era Dios.

(SVD) فِي الْبَدْءِ كَانَ الْكَلِمَةُ وَالْكَلِمَةُ كَانَ عِنْدَ اللَّهِ وَكَانَ الْكَلِمَةُ اللَّهَ.

(TAB) Nang pasimula siya ang Verbo, at ang Verbo ay sumasa Dios, at ang Verbo ay Dios.

(TKJV) ในเริ่มแรกนั้นพระวาทะทรงเป็นอยู่แล้ว และพระวาทะทรงอยู่กับพระเจ้า และพระวาทะทรงเป็นพระเจ้า

(TRC) In the beginning was that(the) word, and that(the) word was with god: and god was that word.(and the word was God.)

(The Scriptures '98) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with Elohim, and the Word was Elohim.

(TS98) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with Elohim, and the Word was Elohim.

(TCNT) In the Beginning the Word was; and the Word was with God; and the Word was God.

(UBIO) Споконвіку було Слово, а Слово в Бога було, і Бог було Слово.

(UPDV) In the beginning was the Speech, and the Speech was with God, and the Speech was God.

(Vamvas) Εν αρχή ήτο ο Λόγος, και ο Λόγος ήτο παρά τω Θεώ, και Θεός ήτο ο Λόγος.

(Vulgate) in principio erat Verbum et Verbum erat apud Deum et Deus erat Verbum

(WEB) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

(Webster) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

(WmsNT) In the beginning the Word existed; and the Word was face to face with God; yea, the Word was God Himself.

(WORNT) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

(WycliffeNT) In the bigynnyng was the word, and the word was at God, and God was the word.

(YLT) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God;




posted on Aug, 2 2005 @ 11:52 PM
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I understand what you are saying. Keep in mind though, that some translations are are similar to making statistics. Figures don't lie but liars can figure.

When people are not given the freedom to question, then they are more easily controlled. That is why it is so important to research and study. Looks like you have.



posted on Aug, 2 2005 @ 11:56 PM
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The NWT was written to fit their belief.
In a board of enquiry, the "translators" proved their lack of knowledge in the old languages.



posted on Aug, 3 2005 @ 12:04 AM
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another curious one,


Mat 22:32


(New World Translation) 'I am the God of Abraham and the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob'? He is the God, not of the dead, but of the living."

Other Translations:


(ACV) I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not God of the dead, but of the living.

(ALT) '_I_ am the God of Abraham and the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob,' did you* not? God is not a God of dead [ones], _but_ of living [ones]!" [Exod 3:6]

(AUV-NT) ‘I am Abraham’s God, and Isaac’s God and Jacob’s God.’ [So], He is not God to those who are [physically] dead, but [He is] God to those who are [still] alive.”

(ANT) ‘Ek is die God van Abraham, die God van Isak, en die God van Jakob’? Hy is nie die God van dooies nie maar van lewendes."

(AOT) Ek is die God van Abraham en die God van Isak en die God van Jakob? God is nie ‘n God van dooies nie, maar van lewendes.

(AOV) Ek is die God van Abraham en die God van Isak en die God van Jakob? God is nie ‘n God van dooies nie, maar van lewendes.

(ASV) I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

(BBE) I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead but of the living.

(BCN) 'Myfi, Duw Abraham a Duw Isaac a Duw Jacob ydwyf'? Nid Duw'r meirw yw ef, ond y rhai byw."

(VW-Edition) I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

(Bishops) I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Iacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the lyuyng.

(CEV) "I am the God worshiped by Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob." He isn't the God of the dead, but of the living.

(CENT) 'I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'? He is not the God of the dead, but of the living."

(Complete Apostles' Bible) 'I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living."

(CUV-S) 他说:『我是亚伯拉罕的神,以撒的神,雅各的神。』神不是死人的神,乃是活人的神。」

(CUV-T) 他說:『我是亞伯拉罕的神,以撒的神,雅各的神。』神不是死人的神,乃是活人的神。」

(Dansk) Jeg er Abrahams Gud og Isaks Gud og Jakobs Gud. Han er ikke dødes, men levendes Gud."

(DRB) I am the God of Abraham and the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob? He is not the God of the dead but of the living.

(DSV) Ik ben de God Abrahams, en de God Izaks, en de God Jakobs! God is niet een God der doden, maar der levenden.

(EMTV) 'I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living."

(ESV) 'I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'? He is not God of the dead, but of the living."

(FDB) "Moi, je suis le Dieu d'Abraham, et le Dieu d'Isaac, et le Dieu de Jacob"? Dieu n'est pas le Dieu des morts, mais des vivants.

(FLS) Je suis le Dieu d'Abraham, le Dieu d'Isaac, et le Dieu de Jacob? Dieu n'est pas Dieu des morts, mais des vivants.

(FPR) 'Minä olen Aabrahamin Jumala ja Iisakin Jumala ja Jaakobin Jumala'? Ei hän ole kuolleitten Jumala, vaan elävien."

(GB) I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Iacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the liuing.

(GEB) "Ich bin der Gott Abrahams und der Gott Isaaks und der Gott Jakobs"? Gott ist nicht ein Gott der Toten, sondern der Lebendigen.

(Geneva) I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Iacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the liuing.

(GLB) "Ich bin der Gott Abrahams und der Gott Isaaks und der Gott Jakobs"? Gott aber ist nicht ein Gott der Toten, sondern der Lebendigen.

(GNB) 'I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.' He is the God of the living, not of the dead."

(GNT) ἐγώ εἰμι ὁ Θεὸς ᾿Αβραὰμ καὶ ὁ Θεὸς ᾿Ισαὰκ καὶ ὁ Θεὸς ᾿Ιακώβ; οὐκ ἔστιν ὁ Θεὸς Θεὸς νεκρῶν, ἀλλὰ ζώντων.

(GNT+) εγω1473 P-1NS ειμι1510 V-PXI-1S ο3588 T-NSM θεος2316 N-NSM αβρααμ11 N-PRI και2532 CONJ ο3588 T-NSM θεος2316 N-NSM ισαακ2464 N-PRI και2532 CONJ ο3588 T-NSM θεος2316 N-NSM ιακωβ2384 N-PRI ουκ3756 PRT-N εστιν2076 V-PXI-3S ο3588 T-NSM θεος2316 N-NSM θεος2316 N-NSM νεκρων3498 A-GPM αλλα235 CONJ ζωντων2198 V-PAP-GPM

(GNT-TR) εγω ειμι ο θεος αβρααμ και ο θεος ισαακ και ο θεος ιακωβ ουκ εστιν ο θεος θεος νεκρων αλλα ζωντων

(GNT-TR+) εγω1473 P-1NS ειμι1510 V-PXI-1S ο3588 T-NSM θεος2316 N-NSM αβρααμ11 N-PRI και2532 CONJ ο3588 T-NSM θεος2316 N-NSM ισαακ2464 N-PRI και2532 CONJ ο3588 T-NSM θεος2316 N-NSM ιακωβ2384 N-PRI ουκ3756 PRT-N εστιν2076 V-PXI-3S ο3588 T-NSM θεος2316 N-NSM θεος2316 N-NSM νεκρων3498 A-GPM αλλα235 CONJ ζωντων2198 V-PAP-GPM

(GNT-V) εγω ειμι ο θεος αβρααμ και ο θεος ισαακ και ο θεος ιακωβ ουκ εστιν Aο TSBο TSBθεος θεος νεκρων αλλα ζωντων

(GNT-WH+) εγω1473 P-1NS ειμι1510 V-PXI-1S ο3588 T-NSM θεος2316 N-NSM αβρααμ11 N-PRI και2532 CONJ ο3588 T-NSM θεος2316 N-NSM ισαακ2464 N-PRI και2532 CONJ ο3588 T-NSM θεος2316 N-NSM ιακωβ2384 N-PRI ουκ3756 PRT-N εστιν2076 V-PXI-3S [ο]3588 T-NSM θεος2316 N-NSM νεκρων3498 A-GPM αλλα235 CONJ ζωντων2198 V-PAP-GPM

(G-NT-TR (Steph)+) εγω I 1473 P-1NS ειμι am 1510 V-PXI-1S ο the 3588 T-NSM θεος God 2316 N-NSM αβρααμ of Abraham 11 N-PRI και and 2532 CONJ ο the 3588 T-NSM θεος God 2316 N-NSM ισαακ of Isaac 2464 N-PRI και and 2532 CONJ ο the 3588 T-NSM θεος God 2316 N-NSM ιακωβ of Jacob 2384 N-PRI ουκ not 3756 PRT-N εστιν is 2076 V-PXI-3S ο 3588 T-NSM θεος God 2316 N-NSM θεος the God 2316 N-NSM νεκρων of the dead 3498 A-GPM αλλα but 235 CONJ ζωντων of the living. 2198 V-PAP-GPM

(GW) 'I am the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.' He's not the God of the dead but of the living."

(HCSB) I am the God of Abraham and the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob? He is not the God of the dead, but of the living."

(HNV) 'I am the God of Avraham, and the God of Yitzchak, and the God of Ya`akov?' God is not the God of the dead, but of the living."

(HOT)

(IBIS) 'Akulah Allah Abraham, Allah Ishak dan Allah Yakub.' Allah itu bukan Allah orang mati. Ia Allah orang hidup!"

(IRL) quando disse: Io sono l'Iddio di Abramo e l'Iddio d'Isacco e l'Iddio di Giacobbe? Egli non è l'Iddio dei morti, ma de' viventi.

(ISV) 'I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'? He is not the God of the dead, but of the living."

(JPS)

(KJ2000) I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

(KJVCNT) I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

(KJV+TVM) I1473 am1510 [5748] the God2316 of Abraham11, and2532 the God2316 of Isaac2464, and2532 the God2316 of Jacob2384? God2316 is2076 [5748] not3756 the God2316 of the dead3498, but235 of the living2198 [5723].

(KJV) I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

(KJV+) I1473 am1510 the3588 God2316 of Abraham,11 and2532 the3588 God2316 of Isaac,2464 and2532 the3588 God2316 of Jacob2384 God2316 is2076 not3756 the God2316 of the dead,3498 but235 of the living.2198

(KJVA) I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

(KJVR) I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

(KKJV) 나는 아브라함의 하나님이요, 이삭의 하나님이요, 야곱의 하나님이니라, 하셨으니 하나님은 죽은 자의 하나님이 아니요, 산 자의 하나님이시라, 하시니

(LBLA) "YO SOY EL DIOS DE ABRAHAM, Y EL DIOS DE ISAAC, Y EL DIOS DE JACOB"? El no es Dios de muertos, sino de vivos.

(LONT) "I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?" God is not a God of the dead, but of the living.

(LXX)

(Metaglottisis) Εγώ είμαι ο Θεός του Αβραάμ και ο Θεός του Ισαάκ και ο Θεός του Ιακώβ; Δεν είναι Θεός νεκρών, αλλά ζωντανών».

(MKJV) "I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?" God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

(MRC) "'I AM THE GOD OF AVRAHAM, AND THE GOD OF YITZCHAK, AND THE GOD OF YA'AKOV'? He is not the God of the dead, but of the living."

(MSG) 'I am--not was--the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, the God of Jacob.' The living God defines himself not as the God of dead men, but of the living."

(Murdock) I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, the God of Jacob? Now he is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

(NAB) 'I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'? He is not the God of the dead but of the living."

(NASB) 'I AM THE GOD OF ABRAHAM, AND THE GOD OF ISAAC, AND THE GOD OF JACOB'? He is not the God of the dead but of the living."

(NET) 'I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'?36 He is not the God of the dead but of the living!"37

(NIV) 'I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob' ? He is not the God of the dead but of the living."

(NKJV) 'I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living."

(NLT) 'I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.' So he is the God of the living, not the dead."

(Norsk) Jeg er Abrahams Gud og Isaks Gud og Jakobs Gud? Han er ikke de dødes Gud, men de levendes.

(NRSV) 'I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'? He is God not of the dead, but of the living."

(PBG) Jam jest Bóg Abrahama, i Bóg Izaaka, i Bóg Jakóba? Bóg nie jestci Bogiem umarłych, ale żywych.

(RDCT) ,Eu sînt Dumnezeul lui Avraam, Dumnezeul lui Isaac, şi Dumnezeul lui Iacov?” Dumnezeu nu este un Dumnezeu al celor morţi ci al celor vii.”

(Rev. Webster+) I1473 am1510 [5748] the God2316 of Abraham11, and2532 the God2316 of Isaac2464, and2532 the God2316 of Jacob2384? God2316 is2076 [5748] not3756 the God2316 of the dead3498, but235 of the living2198 [5723].

(RYLT-NT) I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not a God of dead men, but of living.'

(ROB) "Eu sunt Dumnezeul lui Avraam şi Dumnezeul lui Isaac şi Dumnezeul lui Iacov"? Nu este Dumnezeul morţilor, ci al viilor.

(RST) Я Бог Авраама, и Бог Исаака, и Бог Иакова? Бог не есть Бог мертвых, но живых.

(RSV) 'I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'? He is not God of the dead, but of the living."

(RSVA) 'I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'? He is not God of the dead, but of the living."

(RusVZh+) "Я1473, 1510, 3588 Бог2316 Авраама11, и2532, 3588 Бог2316 Исаака2464, и2532, 3588 Бог2316 Иакова2384?" 3588 Бог2316 не3756 есть2076 Бог2316 мертвых3498, но235 живых2198.

(Schlachter) «Ich bin der Gott Abrahams und der Gott Isaaks und der Gott Jakobs»? Er ist aber nicht ein Gott der Toten, sondern der Lebendigen.

(TR) egw eimi o qeov abraam kai o qeov isaak kai o qeov iakwb ouk estin o qeov qeov nekrwn alla zwntwn

(SRV) Yo soy el Dios de Abraham, y el Dios de Isaac, y el Dios de Jacob? Dios no es Dios de muertos, sino de vivos.

(SVD) أَنَا إِلَهُ إِبْراهِيمَ وَإِلَهُ إِسْحاقَ وَإِلَهُ يَعْقُوبَ. لَيْسَ اللَّهُ إِلَهَ أَمْوَاتٍ بَلْ إِلَهُ أَحْيَاءٍ».

(TAB) Ako ang Dios ni Abraham, at ang Dios ni Isaac, at ang Dios ni Jacob? Ang Dios ay hindi Dios ng mga patay, kundi ng mga buhay.

(TKJV) `เราเป็นพระเจ้าของอับราฮัม เป็นพระเจ้าของอิสอัค และเป็นพระเจ้าของยาโคบ' พระเจ้ามิได้เป็นพระเจ้าของคนตาย แต่ทรงเป็นพระเจ้าของคนเป็น"

(TRC) I am Abraham's God, and Isaac's God, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead: but of the living.

(The Scriptures '98) ‘I am the Elohim of Aḇraham, and the Elohim of Yitsḥaq, and the Elohim of Yaʽaqoḇ’? Elohim is not the Elohim of the dead, but of the living.”

(TS98) 'I am the Elohim of Aḇraham, and the Elohim of Yitsḥaq, and the Elohim of Yaʽaqoḇ'? Elohim is not the Elohim of the dead, but of the living."

(TCNT) 'I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'? He is not the God of dead men, but of living."

(UBIO) Я Бог Авраамів, і Бог Ісаків, і Бог Яковів; Бог не є Богом мертвих, а живих.

(UPDV) He will come and destroy the husbandmen, and will give the vineyard to others.

(Vamvas) Εγώ είμαι ο Θεός του Αβραάμ και ο Θεός του Ισαάκ και ο Θεός του Ιακώβ; δεν είναι ο Θεός Θεός νεκρών, αλλά ζώντων.

(Vulgate) ego sum Deus Abraham et Deus Isaac et Deus Iacob non est Deus mortuorum sed viventium

(WEB) 'I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?' God is not the God of the dead, but of the living."

(Webster) I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

(WmsNT) 'I am the God of Abraham and the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob!' Now God is not the God of dead but of living men."

(WORNT) saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

(WycliffeNT) Y am God of Abraham, and God of Ysaac, and God of Jacob? he is not God of deede men, but of lyuynge men.

(YLT) I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not a God of dead men, but of living.'















And yet another, notice here how they seem to miss this one as its in their own translation....odd wouldnt you say? You can do the reasearch and see where thay have had to make 'adjustments' to both the theology and the actual text when these situations arise.......



Joh 14:6


(New World Translation) Jesus said to him: "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.


Other Translations:

(ACV) Jesus says to him, I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No man comes to the Father, except by me.

(ALT) Jesus says to him, "_I_ am the Way and the Truth and the Life! No one comes to the Father except through [or, by means of] Me!

(AUV-NT) Jesus answered him, “I am the way [to God], and the truth [to believe], and the life [to live]. No one can go to the Father, except through [believing in] me.

(ANT) Jesus het vir hom gesê: "Ek is die weg en die waarheid en die lewe. Niemand kom na die Vader toe behalwe deur My nie.

(AOT) Jesus antwoord hom: Ek is die weg en die waarheid en die lewe; niemand kom na die Vader behalwe deur My nie.

(AOV) Jesus antwoord hom: Ek is die weg en die waarheid en die lewe; niemand kom na die Vader behalwe deur My nie.

(ASV) Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, and the truth, and the life: no one cometh unto the Father, but by me.

(BBE) Jesus said to him, I am the true and living way: no one comes to the Father but by me.

(BCN) Dywedodd Iesu wrtho, "Myfi yw'r ffordd a'r gwirionedd a'r bywyd. Nid yw neb yn dod at y Tad ond trwof fi.

(VW-Edition) Jesus said to him, I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.

(Bishops) Iesus sayth vnto hym: I am the way, and the trueth, and the lyfe. No man cometh vnto the father, but by me.

(CEV) "I am the way, the truth, and the life!" Jesus answered. "Without me, no one can go to the Father.

(CENT) Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

(Complete Apostles' Bible) Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.

(CUV-S) 耶稣说「我就是道路、真理、生命;若不藉著我,没有人能到父那里去。

(CUV-T) 耶穌說「我就是道路、真理、生命;若不藉著我,沒有人能到父那裡去。

(Dansk) Jesus siger til ham: "Jeg er Vejen og Sandheden og Livet; der kommer ingen til Faderen uden ved mig.

(DRB) Jesus saith to him: I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No man cometh to the Father, but by me.

(DSV) Jezus zeide tot hem: Ik ben de Weg, en de Waarheid, en het Leven. Niemand komt tot den Vader, dan door Mij.

(EMTV) Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.

(ESV) Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

(FDB) Jésus lui dit: Moi, je suis le chemin, et la vérité, et la vie; nul ne vient au Père que par moi.

(FLS) Jésus lui dit: Je suis le chemin, la vérité, et la vie. Nul ne vient au Père que par moi.

(FPR) Jeesus sanoi hänelle: "Minä olen tie ja totuus ja elämä; ei kukaan tule Isän tykö muutoin kuin minun kauttani.

(GB) Iesus sayd vnto him, I am that Way, and that Trueth, and that Life. No man commeth vnto the Father, but by me.

(GEB) Jesus spricht zu ihm: Ich bin der Weg und die Wahrheit und das Leben. Niemand kommt zum Vater, als nur durch mich.

(Geneva) Iesus sayd vnto him, I am that Way, and that Trueth, and that Life. No man commeth vnto the Father, but by me.

(GLB) Jesus spricht zu ihm: Ich bin der Weg und die Wahrheit und das Leben; niemand kommt zum Vater denn durch mich.

(GNB) Jesus answered him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life; no one goes to the Father except by me.

(GNT) λέγει αὐτῷ ὁ ᾿Ιησοῦς· ἐγώ εἰμι ἡ ὁδὸς καὶ ἡ ἀλήθεια καὶ ἡ ζωή· οὐδεὶς ἔρχεται πρὸς τὸν πατέρα εἰ μὴ δι᾿ ἐμοῦ.

(GNT+) λεγει3004 V-PAI-3S αυτω846 P-DSM ο3588 T-NSM ιησους2424 N-NSM εγω1473 P-1NS ειμι1510 V-PXI-1S η3588 T-NSF οδος3598 N-NSF και2532 CONJ η3588 T-NSF αληθεια225 N-NSF και2532 CONJ η3588 T-NSF ζωη2222 N-NSF ουδεις3762 A-NSM ερχεται2064 V-PNI-3S προς4314 PREP τον3588 T-ASM πατερα3962 N-ASM ει1487 COND μη3361 PRT-N δι1223 PREP εμου1700 P-1GS

(GNT-TR) λεγει αυτω ο ιησους εγω ειμι η οδος και η αληθεια και η ζωη ουδεις ερχεται προς τον πατερα ει μη δι εμου

(GNT-TR+) λεγει3004 V-PAI-3S αυτω846 P-DSM ο3588 T-NSM ιησους2424 N-NSM εγω1473 P-1NS ειμι1510 V-PXI-1S η3588 T-NSF οδος3598 N-NSF και2532 CONJ η3588 T-NSF αληθεια225 N-NSF και2532 CONJ η3588 T-NSF ζωη2222 N-NSF ουδεις3762 A-NSM ερχεται2064 V-PNI-3S προς4314 PREP τον3588 T-ASM πατερα3962 N-ASM ει1487 COND μη3361 PRT-N δι1223 PREP εμου1700 P-1GS

(GNT-V) λεγει αυτω Aο TSBο ιησους εγω ειμι η οδος και η αληθεια και η ζωη ουδεις ερχεται προς τον πατερα ει μη δι εμου

(GNT-WH+) λεγει3004 V-PAI-3S αυτω846 P-DSM | | [ο]3588 T-NSM | ιησους2424 N-NSM εγω1473 P-1NS ειμι1510 V-PXI-1S η3588 T-NSF οδος3598 N-NSF και2532 CONJ η3588 T-NSF αληθεια225 N-NSF και2532 CONJ η3588 T-NSF ζωη2222 N-NSF ουδεις3762 A-NSM ερχεται2064 V-PNI-3S προς4314 PREP τον3588 T-ASM πατερα3962 N-ASM ει1487 COND μη3361 PRT-N δι1223 PREP εμου1700 P-1GS

(G-NT-TR (Steph)+) λεγει saith 3004 V-PAI-3S αυτω unto him 846 P-DSM ο the 3588 T-NSM ιησους Jesus 2424 N-NSM εγω I 1473 P-1NS ειμι am 1510 V-PXI-1S η the 3588 T-NSF οδος way 3598 N-NSF και and 2532 CONJ η the 3588 T-NSF αληθεια truth 225 N-NSF και 2532 CONJ η the 3588 T-NSF ζωη life, 2222 N-NSF ουδεις no man 3762 A-NSM ερχεται cometh 2064 V-PNI-3S προς unto 4314 PREP τον 3588 T-ASM πατερα Father 3962 N-ASM ει 1487 COND μη 3361 PRT-N δι by 1223 PREP εμου me. 1700 P-1GS

(GW) Jesus answered him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one goes to the Father except through me.

(HCSB) Jesus told him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.

(HNV) Yeshua said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father, except through me.

(HOT)

(IBIS) Yesus menjawab, "Akulah jalan untuk mengenal Allah dan mendapat hidup. Tidak seorang pun dapat datang kepada Bapa, kalau tidak melalui Aku.

(IRL) Gesù gli disse: Io son la via, la verità e la vita; nessuno viene al Padre se non per mezzo di me.

(ISV) Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

(JPS)

(KJ2000) Jesus said unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man comes unto the Father, but by me.

(KJVCNT) Jesus says unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man comes unto the Father, but by me.

(KJV+TVM) Jesus2424 saith3004 [5719] unto him846, I1473 am1510 [5748] the way3598,2532 the truth225, and2532 the life2222: no man3762 cometh2064 [5736] unto4314 the Father3962, but1508 by1223 me1700.

(KJV) Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

(KJV+) Jesus2424 saith3004 unto him,846 I1473 am1510 the3588 way,3598 the3588 truth,225 and2532 the3588 life:2222 no man3762 cometh2064 unto4314 the3588 Father,3962 but1508 by1223 me.1700

(KJVA) Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

(KJVR) Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

(KKJV) 예수님께서 그에게 이르시되, 내가 곧 길이요 진리요 생명이니 나로 말미암지 않고는 아버지께로 올 자가 없느니라.

(LBLA) Jesús le dijo*: Yo soy el camino, y la verdad, y la vida; nadie viene al Padre sino por mí.

(LONT) Jesus answered, I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no man comes to the Father, but by me.

(LXX)

(Metaglottisis) Του απαντά ο Ιησούς: «Εγώ είμαι η οδός και η αλήθεια και η ζωή. Κανείς δεν έρχεται προς τον Πατέρα παρά μόνο διαμέσου εμένα.

(MKJV) Jesus said to him, I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life; no one comes to the Father but by Me.

(MRC) Yeshua said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but through Me.

(MSG) Jesus said, "I am the Road, also the Truth, also the Life. No one gets to the Father apart from me.

(Murdock) Jesus said to him: I am the way, and truth, and life: no one cometh unto my Father, but by me.

(NAB) Jesus said to him, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

(NASB) Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.

(NET) Jesus replied,13 "I am the way, and the truth, and the life.14 No one comes to the Father except through me.

(NIV) Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

(NKJV) Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.

(NLT) Jesus told him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one can come to the Father except through me.

(Norsk) Jesus sier til ham: Jeg er veien og sannheten og livet; ingen kommer til Faderen uten ved mig.

(NRSV) Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

(PBG) Rzekł mu Jezus: Jamci jest ta droga, i prawda, i żywot; żaden nie przychodzi do Ojca, tylko przez mię.

(RDCT) Isus i-a zis: „Eu sînt calea, adevărul şi viaţa. Nimeni nu vine la Tatăl decît prin Mine.

(Rev. Webster+) Jesus2424 saith3004 [5719] to him846, I1473 am1510 [5748] the way3598, and2532 the truth225, and2532 the life2222: no man3762 cometh2064 [5736] to4314 the Father3962, but1508 by1223 me1700.

(RYLT-NT) Jesus said to him, 'I am the way, and the truth, and the life, no one does come unto the Father, if not through me;

(ROB) Iisus i-a zis: Eu sunt Calea, Adevărul şi Viaţa. Nimeni nu vine la Tatăl Meu decât prin Mine.

(RST) Иисус сказал ему: Я есмь путь и истина и жизнь; никто не приходит к Отцу, как только через Меня.

(RSV) Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but by me.

(RSVA) Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but by me.

(RusVZh+) 3588 Иисус2424 сказал3004 ему846: Я1473 есмь1510, 3588 путь3598 и2532, 3588 истина225 и2532, 3588 жизнь2222; никто3762 не приходит2064 к4314, 3588 Отцу3962, как только1508 через1223 Меня1700.

(Schlachter) Jesus spricht zu ihm: Ich bin der Weg und die Wahrheit und das Leben; niemand kommt zum Vater, denn durch mich!

(TR) legei autw o ihsouv egw eimi h odov kai h alhqeia kai h zwh oudeiv erxetai prov ton patera ei mh di emou

(SRV) Jesús le dice: Yo soy el camino, y la verdad, y la vida: nadie viene al Padre, sino por mí.

(SVD) قَالَ لَهُ يَسُوعُ: «أَنَا هُوَ الطَّرِيقُ وَالْحَقُّ وَالْحَيَاةُ. لَيْسَ أَحَدٌ يَأْتِي إِلَى الآبِ إِلاَّ بِي.

(TAB) Sinabi sa kaniya ni Jesus, Ako ang daan, at ang katotohanan, at ang buhay: sinoman ay di makaparoroon sa Ama, kundi sa pamamagitan ko.

(TKJV) พระเยซูตรัสกับเขาว่า "เราเป็นทางนั้น เป็นความจริง และเป็นชีวิต ไม่มีผู้ใดมาถึงพระบิดาได้นอกจากมาทางเรา

(TRC) Jesus said unto him I am the way, the verity,(truth) and (the) life. (And) No man cometh unto the father, but by me.

(The Scriptures '98) יהושע said to him, “I am the Way, and the Truth, and the Life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.

(TS98) יהושע said to him, "I am the Way, and the Truth, and the Life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.

(TCNT) Jesus answered: "I am the Way, and the Truth, and the Life; no one ever comes to the Father except through me.

(UBIO) Промовляє до нього Ісус: Я дорога, і правда, і життя. До Отця не приходить ніхто, якщо не через Мене.

(UPDV) Jesus says to him, I am the way, and the truth, and the life: no one comes to the Father, but by me.

(Vamvas) Λέγει προς αυτόν ο Ιησούς· Εγώ είμαι η οδός και η αλήθεια και η ζωή· ουδείς έρχεται προς τον Πατέρα, ειμή δι' εμού.

(Vulgate) dicit ei Iesus ego sum via et veritas et vita nemo venit ad Patrem nisi per me

(WEB) Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father, except through me.

(Webster) Jesus saith to him, I am the way, and the truth, and the life: no man cometh to the Father, but by me.

(WmsNT) Jesus answered him, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one can come to the Father except through me.

(WORNT) Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, and the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father but by me.

(WycliffeNT) Jhesus seith to hym, Y am weie, treuthe, and lijf; no man cometh to the fadir, but bi me.

(YLT) Jesus saith to him, `I am the way, and the truth, and the life, no one doth come unto the Father, if not through me;



posted on Aug, 3 2005 @ 12:06 AM
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Originally posted by Thomas Crowne
The NWT was written to fit their belief.
In a board of enquiry, the "translators" proved their lack of knowledge in the old languages.



Yeah - flawed to say the least - the founder was even arrested once for lies, proven in a court of law. He never would say where he learned the Greek and Hebrew and would NEVER allow a confirmation of this. I wonder why?

Notice on the last set, the Islamic reply to this verse would indeed be interesting, besides the 'text has been changed'. Some of these texts predate Islam itself by 600 years.



posted on Aug, 3 2005 @ 12:17 AM
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Man, don't get me started. I prefer the Yahoo method of getting to my ATS JW rants: search.yahoo.com...

I was raised in this cult, and I can assure you that the reason their bible reads this way is because this group exists primarily to glorify the zionist supreme god Jehovah and so they must work to place Jesus in his lesser position. That's the reason John 1:1 reads that way: It makes Jesus look like less.

A few facts:

1: All JWs are ignorant of Masonry, yet their leaders have been masons/elites from the start. Their founder, Charles Taze Russell, an 1800's preacher, is buried under a masonic pyramid. JWs have no idea who's driving their church, but they are threatened into silence and obedience, so it never comes up much.

2: The JWs believe Armageddon is coming and that theirs will be the worldwide (and only legal) religion after this war. They dream of the "New Order" in which they will be allowed to rebuiild a destroyed world into a paradise and in which all humans will be Jehovah's Witnesses. They will also, in this paradise, be ruled by Illuminated angelic gods from some unknown "heavenly location". Convenient.

3: The Watchtower family of slave-fueled bookmaking companies secretly had been registered as an supportive NGO with the UN (and have published positive pieces about the UN, as required of NGOs) while outwardly preaching that the UN is Satan's tool. More here.

...So if their timeline comes true, the NWT will be the only legal translation of the bible, eventually. But really, since the whole bible is cobbled together and contains both lies and truths, what difference does it really make if theirs it a bit more wacky than anyone else's?


[edit on 3-8-2005 by smallpeeps]



posted on Aug, 3 2005 @ 10:33 AM
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Smallpeeps, I can see by what you wrote that you have looked into it. I understand it as a cult, but I like talking to them and listening to the "Plain Truth" and then showing them the lost ways that they follow.

Their souls are in danger.......



posted on Aug, 3 2005 @ 08:45 PM
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Yeah, but this post is a little longer than it needs to be. You might want to post 1/5th as many references and more commentary by yourself on why you think this matters.

Frankly, like I said, this is a small issue except for those Christians who demand to see Jesus as THE God. If you must see him as the same God as the Hebrews worshipped, and which the JWs worship, then it's not the kind of Christianity I agree with.

But if you're saying this is a conspiracy, I'd say yes, it is an active decision by the translators of the NWT bible to translate John 1:1 in this way. They do this to make it clear that Jesus is not God, for that is anathema to Jehovah's Witnesses.



posted on Aug, 3 2005 @ 10:09 PM
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Wow, this is interesting.

I was in Florida visiting my dad and his family who are JW's (he tried to convert me for years with no luck....his daughter is no sheep ;-)

Anyhoo, it was around Easter time, and one day my stepmother brings out a fancy dancy long dress to show me. I asked where she was going to wear it and she told me it was for the celebration the day before Good Friday. I said, which celebration? She said it was the most important day of the year for JW's, the day they CELEBRATE the crucifixtion of Jesus Christ!!!!!

I nearly fell off my chair...I'm not religious by any stretch of the imagination but that that freaked me out. When most Christians celebrate the resurrection, they celebrate his crucifixtion...


Now knowing about the cult's Masonic origins I'm understanding this a bit better. Lavage de cerveau, peut etre?

[edit on 3/8/05 by AlwaysLearning]



posted on Aug, 4 2005 @ 12:41 AM
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one day my stepmother brings out a fancy dancy long dress to show me. I asked where she was going to wear it and she told me it was for the celebration the day before Good Friday. I said, which celebration? She said it was the most important day of the year for JW's, the day they CELEBRATE the crucifixtion of Jesus Christ!!!!!

Yes, but if you actually attend this ritual, you will be even more stupified.

In my post above, I mentioned the Illuminated angelic gods that will rule the JWs future paradise. In fact, these are the higher caste of JW, who total exactly 144,000 (as mentioned in John's revelation at Patmos). These are the only humans who will go to heaven and be with Jesus when they die.

You see, when Charles T. Russell (roscrucian, mason, golden dawn) started the WTBTS (Watchtower Bible and Tract Society), he said every member was going to heaven. He prophesied turn-of-the-century devastation and dawning of a new "Golden Age" circa 1890. He set dates for this event (he knew it was coming), but they came and went. Eventually, he set upon 1914. "Look out for 1914!" became the cry of the "International Bible Students" as they were then called.

Unfortunately, the prophets did not return in 1914 as Russell said they would and there was no paradise. There was however, considerable attention for the little group of "Russellites" who had prognosticated a year the world did, in fact change. After this, Russell was overcome by age, but remains revered by some people in Pennsylvania who do not like the Jehovah's Witnesses and who remember Russell as an actual prophet of sorts.

The WTBTS, being a valuable commodity, just like the little cards in the game Monopoly, was eventually legally wrested from the core of Russell's followers and the new title-holders took the growing corporation/cult into a new age.

Obviously if you make a prediction like 1914 correctly, you are going to gain converts. So lots of JWs came in and pretty soon there were much more than 144,000 of them. Due to Russell's heavenly dogma, the JW corporate leaders had to figure out a way to not irritate the majority heaven-bound Russell-members while opening up the cult to a wider audience. Nobody wants to join a religion where they can't get a great reward, but the new corporate leaders of the JW publishing company couldn't change the dogma that the 144,000 of heavenly ones in the Book of Revelation was a literal number. To change that would alter the mental schema of these very tightly controlled followers and probably reduce the value/credibility of the cult.

They came up with a fairly crude solution: They interpreted Jesus's words about his "other sheep who are not of this fold" to mean that there was a new, non-heavenly hope for anyone who was a late-comer to the cult, now grandiously named "Jehovah's Witnesses". The new 1930's corporate owners painted an Illuminated picture of a paradise Earth (after Jehovah's final bloody war of Armageddon, of course) where this new Earthly group (the 'great crowd') would enjoy bliss in paradise. Ruled of course by the 144,000 'anointed ones', invisibly, from heaven.

So all those JW's you see walking around are members of this group, that is to say, the group that will live through Armageddon and beautify the world after, commonly called the "New Order". They know and accept that they are never going to heaven.

In fact, when viewing the JWs in a conspiratorial light, one sees that after "Armageddon", the world will be able to be whatever the invisible JW corporate leaders say it should be. Presumably the JWs left alive after Amageddon would have some kind of telephone or CB radio in order to receive direction from these rulers in "heaven".

Since most of the 144,000 first-gen heavenly JWs are dead, the ones who are left alive today are verrrry old. There are some younger ones and these are explained vis: "Well, one of the old timers must have lost faith and needed to be replaced." These so-called 'anointed' people somehow know that they are not bound for post-Armageddon garden-planting, radiation removal and tree-trimming like 99% of the JWs on Earth. No, these people are going to heaven.

Having explained this higher caste of JWs, this takes us back to the original issue of the ritual of Christ's death, here's the point: At this evening celebration, held annually around Easter, the JW kingdom halls will fill up. The rank-and-file members (dressed nicely, as mentioned) prepare to pass around the sacraments of Jesus's last supper, represented by a glass of wine and a tray of unleavened crackers. They all quietly sit in this most sacred of rituals. A song is sung and a prayer offered.

So the pastors of the congregation take the sacraments and they pass them around the place --and nobody drinks or eats! Seriously, as a kid, I'd sit there and watch this glass of wine and plate of bread go around the whole place, touching everyone's hands (including mine --it is important for the kids to participate in this ritual also) with NOBODY drinking or eating. This was because we did not have an 'anointed' heavenly member in our congregation. Thereare only 8,000 or so members of the heavenly annointed class remaining on Earth, you see, out of roughly 2 million registered JWs. Only those JWs of heavenly destination may partake, for only they are part of the covenant with Christ.

In congregations of JWs where an anointed member worships, that individual person may drink or eat of the sacraments, but nobody else may do so. Now ask yourself why they would want to have a global ritual in which the sacraments of Jesus's last supper are actively and reverently denied by 99% of the members in attendance. Who would love a ritual like this? Hmmm... Could it beeee.... SATAN??!?

I recommend everyone ask a JW about their 'memorial' and try to attend. Feel free to drink the sacraments because Jesus said you could. Ignore the dirty looks. BTW, if any of this confuses you, imagine getting this taught to you from childhood onward. You wouldn't know your ass from a hole in the ground.

[edit on 4-8-2005 by smallpeeps]



posted on Aug, 4 2005 @ 07:23 AM
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Originally posted by smallpeeps

I recommend everyone ask a JW about their 'memorial' and try to attend. Feel free to drink the sacraments because Jesus said you could. Ignore the dirty looks. BTW, if any of this confuses you, imagine getting this taught to you from childhood onward. You wouldn't know your ass from a hole in the ground.

[edit on 4-8-2005 by smallpeeps]


Oh, my friend, I hear you totally on that. This is the most amazing insight. smallpeeps...thank you. My parents divorced years ago (before he converted)...he's been a JW for 30 years or more and both my American brothers have known nothing else. One is an "elder" in the organization!! My Dad and stepmother are older so there's probably no hope for them, but my brothers....its pretty scary. Although they don't push anything on me at all, thankfully. I've discussed things with my younger brother and he's pretty open to talking about different concepts. But they've got it bad over all, the younger has even learned Greek (we're a combination of Portuguese and Spanish) so that he can preach multilingually!

I never stay around long enough when I visit (nothing in common), but it would be interesting to attend this memorial. It all sounds like nonsense to me....how could anyone but the weak-minded and gullible get drawn into this cult? The children, of course, never had a chance!



posted on Aug, 4 2005 @ 12:39 PM
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Are you saying that they purposely translated the text incorrectly to advance a different theology, or that they were merely inept?



posted on Aug, 4 2005 @ 01:52 PM
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I live in Cleveland Ohio (apparently the home of the gullible and brain dead) and am surrounded by dozens of Kingdom Halls... with one just right around the corner - lucky me!


I get visisted every weekend by some young, well-dressed JWs attempting to "convert" me. What always befuddles them is when I ask, "If only 144,000 of you are going to heaven and you have over 2 million members, what are the rest of you going to do?" I've had dozens of answers to that one but mostly just blank stares. It's really kind of funny but mostly pretty sad.

I am the product of a Roman Catholic upbringing although I am not a practicing Catholic. I did, however, have the benefit of attending a Jesuit college which stressed theology (Not just Catholicism) as a core of it's liberal arts program and was afforded a wonderful opportunity to study other religions as well as logic and philosophy. What really gets me is how completely counter-culture (Read as CULTISH) the Jehovas really are. Their religion defies any sense of logic or rationale. I love debating them as a result. Perhaps someday I will be able to convert one of them.



posted on Aug, 5 2005 @ 11:15 AM
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Originally posted by kozmo
I get visisted every weekend by some young, well-dressed JWs attempting to "convert" me. What always befuddles them is when I ask, "If only 144,000 of you are going to heaven and you have over 2 million members, what are the rest of you going to do?" I've had dozens of answers to that one but mostly just blank stares. It's really kind of funny but mostly pretty sad.


Hehe. I've had very similar conversations. A man & woman team would stop by and she wore a head covering. I asked why, they quoted Paul saying a woman should cover her head in the presence of a man in prayer since he is to lead. Nevermind the fact Paul was solving a very specific problem about disagreement and church descension at the time, I nodded and we went on. The next time she came over by herself since her husband was sick. She said "let's pray". I asked where her head covering was, she said it only applies to believers in God with Jesus as son. I said am a believer, ready to lead the prayer. She stopped me saying that the rule only applied to Jehovah's Witnesses. I asked where in the Bible that was and got a similar response.

Here are some good opener questions when Jehovah Witnesses want to talk to you about their beliefs:

1.) What happens if I get drafted into the military?
2.) Suppose I'm unconscious in the Emergency Room bleeding to death and the doctor immediately makes the decision to give me a blood transfusion, is this a good idea? Why not?
3.) I'm a busy person. Does it matter that I can only attend 2 meetings a week?
4.) Who do you think I should vote for in the up-coming election?
5.) (Men) Why can't I have long hair and a beard?


Originally posted by kozmo
Their religion defies any sense of logic or rationale.


That's my biggest issue. I believe God created logic and rationale as well as truth.


Originally posted by kozmo
I love debating them as a result. Perhaps someday I will be able to convert one of them.


God bless you on that endeavour my friend.

Pray, train, study.

[edit on 5-8-2005 by saint4God]



posted on Aug, 5 2005 @ 03:45 PM
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The spirit behind the JW religion is a very powerful thing.
Always remember that it is not just a person , but a principality...power...that you are confronting.
If you let yourself forget that...then you could easily be surprised after the meeting. Guilt, depression, doubt, ...heaviness ....
Just be aware...and let the Lord lead.



posted on Aug, 5 2005 @ 07:06 PM
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Originally posted by Nygdan
Are you saying that they purposely translated the text incorrectly to advance a different theology, or that they were merely inept?




Well the supposed leader said he was fluent in Greek and Hebrew but could never prove it and it seems that 'someone' helped him 'interpret' the scripture in a way that denies the Christ....John is the most commonly used verse and the other is this one:

John 14:28 "You have heard Me say to you, 'I am going away and coming back to you.' If you loved Me, you would rejoice because I said, 'I am going to the Father,' for My Father is greater than I.


They fail to understand that this is while He was Flesh and had yet not ascended.


Another one that they have trouble with....as does Islam:

John 14:6 Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

A cult? you bet.

Fun when they stop by? Well somewhat but sad at the same time, you can show them that their book is flawed from the manuscripts that their supposed leader translated from....its plain as day and yet....they refuse to believe anything else. You can even show them how may times the JW's have had to CHANGE the NWT to omit obvious errors in meaning.


They only stop by my house once.......regretfully.



posted on Aug, 5 2005 @ 07:57 PM
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It is no more flawed than all other versions of the Old Testament, which incidentally means that it is no less flawed.

The Word, was spoken by the Egyptian god of the day, whether it was Atum; Ra or Aten, and it is the stories of those idolatrous Egyptian beliefs carved in stone which parallels the papier derived Hebrew Bible, and consequently from which the Christian Bible derives its teachings.

So why exactly do you choose to direct your attention to just the JW, when in fact you should be directing your energies to the root cause; Egyptian teachings, Edsinger?



[edit on 8/5/05 by SomewhereinBetween]



posted on Aug, 5 2005 @ 08:23 PM
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Originally posted by SomewhereinBetween
It is no more flawed than all other versions of the Old Testament, which incidentally means that it is no less flawed.

The Word, was spoken by the Egyptian god of the day, whether it was Atum; Ra or Aten, and it is the stories of those idolatrous Egyptian beliefs carved in stone which parallels the papier derived Hebrew Bible, and consequently from which the Christian Bible derives its teachings.

So why exactly do you choose to direct your attention to just the JW, when in fact you should be directing your energies to the root cause; Egyptian teachings, Edsinger?


Because I do not watse my time with the 'trivial'. In no way did the Hebrews worship an Egyptian god. The God of Noah was not Murduk or Thoth or any other Egyptian god or diety. You find yourself in the very small percentage of folks who look for answers from Gnostic texts?


What you tried a few months back will not work now so save your fingerprints.



As for JW, because I finally HAVE a copy, electronically of course and I find it facinating how they just change a few words here and there and change the ENTIRE meaning of Scripture. Its a dangerous cult.....


By the way, I guess Enoch is walking with an Egyptian god now isnt he? Ezekiel? Daniel?



posted on Aug, 5 2005 @ 09:29 PM
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Originally posted by edsingerBecause I do not watse my time with the 'trivial'.
Oh but you do! By the very fact that you would prefer to deflect incorrect religiousity to that which you deem illicit proves this.

But! I am challenging you and the root, not what some rather young tradition holds, but yours and that which you espouse. I can do so simply by this: Provide the oldest known document that supports your faith which dates prior to anything of Egyptian origin, which I can show, and have already shown is the root of the Hebrew religion, and I will grant that you have the knowledge to be bashing any other belief. I will even provide you with a point of (oldest) reference; if your provision does not reference Joshua, then you are dismissed as a know-nothing.


In no way did the Hebrews worship an Egyptian god.
Ah! but denying same does not make it so. Your Hebrews have nothing that is even equivalent to the Egyptian stone carvings of 4500 years ago, much less papyri older than 2400 years. This from your God who supposedly carved his constitution in stone 5,765 years ago, not once, BUT TWICE! And I repeat...TWICE!


The God of Noah was not Murduk or Thoth or any other Egyptian god or diety.
Defensive? The god was in fact Thoth. It is your god, Enoch. Once more, I repeat for you...you have nothing that supports any Hebrew or Judaic text which cannot be found in even older Egyptian hieroglyph or stelae.


You find yourself in the very small percentage of folks who look for answers from Gnostic texts?
That is exactly what I enjoy. It is always the smaller percentage of above average thinkers that are necessary to push the limits, non? Why, what would we have done without Alexander Graham Bell; Sir Issac Newton or Benjamin Franklin? If they were of lesser intellect, singer, they would have been like you.


What you tried a few months back will not work now so save your fingerprints.
My fingerprints? What I tried a few months back? Are you using illicit mind altering substances or even employing illegal methods to try and trace my internet address, or even attempting to access my private information, edsinger? I demand a yes or no response here as no other response affords you any rights.

I personally believe that: 1) you do so because you blow hot air in that regard and not because anything I say influences you; 2) you contravene the terms and conditions of International Convention and 3) You contravene the TOS of this very site.

Imagine, singer, that one post from me, solicits such animosity from you. I above all others, appear to force you to work hard to stay at least 4 steps behind me.


As for JW, because I finally HAVE a copy,
I really do not care if you have 5,000 copies. If one is wrong, so are the others. This does not address that which I have addressed to you, and that for your edification is: Your Christian text is reliant solely on Hebrew text which in turn is outdated by Egyptian text which points to both Hebrew and Christian theology as being derived from the:

worship of idols and multiple gods.


By the way, I guess Enoch is walking with an Egyptian god now isnt he? Ezekiel? Daniel?
Only with those of your mindset. Personally, I believe the creators of those myths are dead, and are incapable of thought, including your Enoch/Thoth if they in fact existed.


[edit on 8/5/05 by SomewhereinBetween]

[edit on 8/5/05 by SomewhereinBetween]



posted on Aug, 5 2005 @ 11:12 PM
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Originally posted by SomewhereinBetweenBut! I am challenging you and the root, not what some rather young tradition holds, but yours and that which you espouse. I can do so simply by this: Provide the oldest known document that supports your faith which dates prior to anything of Egyptian origin, which I can show, and have already shown is the root of the Hebrew religion, and I will grant that you have the knowledge to be bashing any other belief.


Well lets see then, by your logic then the Egyptians were copying the Sumerian's? They predate the Egyptians. Root of the Hebrew religion? Who are you trying to blow smoke to? The Hebrew religion was monotheistic, Egypt was not even close. Sumer wasn't either for that matter.




Originally posted by SomewhereinBetween Defensive? The god was in fact Thoth. It is your god, Enoch. Once more, I repeat for you...you have nothing that supports any Hebrew or Judaic text which cannot be found in even older Egyptian hieroglyph or stelae.


Sounds to me like you have been reading Sitchin. Thoth was not the God referred to as the Ancient one....How could there have been Judaic text pre-Abraham?



Originally posted by SomewhereinBetween
That is exactly what I enjoy. It is always the smaller percentage of above average thinkers that are necessary to push the limits, non? Why, what would we have done without Alexander Graham Bell; Sir Issac Newton or Benjamin Franklin? If they were of lesser intellect, singer, they would have been like you.


So you insult my intellect?Nice touch. Its funny how you would mention Newton (my personal favorite as one of the smartest men in history. Its ashame that a man born with more intellect than you and I put together spent the majority of his time studying the Bible. Ironic isn't it?




Originally posted by SomewhereinBetweenMy fingerprints? What I tried a few months back? Are you using illicit mind altering substances or even employing illegal methods to try and trace my internet address, or even attempting to access my private information, edsinger? I demand a yes or no response here as no other response affords you any rights.



By fingerprints I meant wasting your time 'typing' trying to convince me of your Hebrew/Egyptian. I guess you are the smartest man in the world because not to many ascribe to your theory, most understand it as BS.


No drugs......

Like I care 'who' you are. I wouldn't even waste my time, no need, actually I pity you.





Originally posted by SomewhereinBetweenI personally believe that: 1) you do so because you blow hot air in that regard and not because anything I say influences you; 2) you contravene the terms and conditions of International Convention and 3) You contravene the TOS of this very site.


Hot air? Ok when you don't like what I say, you are so entitled. I contravene the terms of International Convention do I? GOOD,

John 7:7 "The world cannot hate you, but it hates Me because I testify of it that its works are evil.

Mat 5:11 "Blessed are you when they revile and persecute you, and say all kinds of evil against you falsely for My sake.

Well I have had my share of flags I will grant, I wear them with honor. I really could give a hoot less whether you like me or not. When you become a MOD, ban me, until then stop whining.



Originally posted by SomewhereinBetweenImagine, singer, that one post from me, solicits such animosity from you. I above all others, appear to force you to work hard to stay at least 4 steps behind me.


Animosity? It got that reaction because it failed months ago, maybe you can convince a teenager of this Jehovah was Thoth or Ra or whatever, but it bounces off me. You want to know why? Its something that you can't touch, can't smell, can't see, but sure can FEEL. Its the Holy Spirit. I accepted that free gift and I hope someday you open your heart and accept it also.





Originally posted by SomewhereinBetweenI really do not care if you have 5,000 copies. If one is wrong, so are the others. This does not address that which I have addressed to you, and that for your edification is: Your Christian text is reliant solely on Hebrew text which in turn is outdated by Egyptian text which points to both Hebrew and Christian theology as being derived from the:

worship of idols and multiple gods.



Well if that is what you see it to be then that is your choice, multiple gods are strictly forbidden in both Judaism and Christianity. Just because you think that they are conjured up from Egyptian texts, doesn't mean that you actually are even close to the truth. At least be creative and claim the Sumerian's as they PRE-date your beloved Egyptians. I mean if you wish to call Noah Gilgamesh, then fine, but at least get the right time frame!



Originally posted by SomewhereinBetweenOnly with those of your mindset. Personally, I believe the creators of those myths are dead, and are incapable of thought, including your Enoch/Thoth if they in fact existed.


Well I believe that Enoch never saw death. Why? Because the Creator's Word said as much and that is good enough for me.

You believe whatever you wish, accept that mankind was not created but was the result of some cosmic fart or something. Thats fine, until you actually WITNESS the power of prayer and you get the chip off your shoulder that make you refuse to believe what deep down you know to be true.


Have a nice day!




[edit on 5-8-2005 by edsinger]



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