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Man claims metal fragment came from UFO!

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posted on Aug, 22 2005 @ 10:00 AM
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That is a very impressive resume, and tells me the object is worth researching. When someone of your stature has taken a serious interest in this object, along with devoting two years to help find out the truth, we should all take an interest I think.



Originally posted by DRGIBBONS
That's no space junk! Bob passed polygraph tests on the entire story of how he recovered the object.

I agree, that I think Bob is telling the truth, but I just wanted to cover that aspect for others that are interested. The first thing that popped into my mind, when I came across the story was maybe it was formed naturally and fell to earth, but I think we can rule that out.




"The Cr 53/54 ratio will tell us without a doubt whether this sample came from planet Earth or from somewhere else. Chromium is unique because it is definite."

You will have to forgive me, I am not too knowledgeable about isotopes. But I see that the indicator is the ratio of the isotopes of the element and not just the presence of it. It would be interesting to see the results from this test if it is done.

With what you know so far, is it correct to assume that there isn't any manufacturing process in which the object could have been made? Not to insinuate anything, but could this object be recreated in a lab? Or does the Strontium isotope ratios rule that out?




posted on Aug, 22 2005 @ 11:04 AM
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This whole thing makes me think Lazar is telling the truth and that he really did work at S-4...

He went on TV and told the world about the U.S. Government's most secret programs (Reverse engineering of UFOS) at S-4. He was almost killed because of this. He was fired.

Now it seems as though the government has made up with Lazar because he now owns United Nuclear in NM, gets million dollar grants from the government, meets with top level military officials, works on classified programs, and was given back his security clearance for Los Alamos National Laboratory. All this after he spilled the beans about S-4 in the late 80's. It's all starting to make sense to me...

[edit on 22-8-2005 by meshuggah1324]

[edit on 22-8-2005 by meshuggah1324]



posted on Aug, 22 2005 @ 11:22 AM
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The isotope abundance ratio tests do measure the ratio of two isotopes of Strontium and the ratio of two isotopes of Chromium. It is this ratio that determines if a metallic sample is extraterrestrial or not. I don't think labs have the capability of "mixing up" a batch of Strontium and a batch of Chromium with the correct isotopic ratios. First of all, they would have to separate out the isotopes to do the mix in the first place. That would require a separation on the order of the Manhattan Project that cost billions of dollars to develop the atomic bomb. No, Bob White's object is unique because labs can't duplicate it. Critics say it is 360 Aluminum alloy, but I did a study of what makes up a 360 Aluminum alloy and by definition, it has a concentration of Tin. Bob's object has no Tin! If you do a cursory look at Bob's object and 360 Aluminum alloy, the first four elemental concentrations are pretty close, but you have do look at the trace elements in Bob's object and compare them with the trace elements in 360 Aluminum alloy. They don't match and Bob's object has no Tin! Dr. Robert H. Gibbons



posted on Aug, 22 2005 @ 11:47 AM
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Originally posted by DRGIBBONS
I don't think labs have the capability of "mixing up" a batch of Strontium and a batch of Chromium with the correct isotopic ratios. First of all, they would have to separate out the isotopes to do the mix in the first place. That would require a separation on the order of the Manhattan Project that cost billions of dollars to develop the atomic bomb. No, Bob White's object is unique because labs can't duplicate it.


That is what I figured when hearing about the Strontium isotope ratio being similar to that of the meteorites. It would be very difficult and costly to "hoax" something like this.

As mentioned by another member, it would take a conspiracy on the order described in the book "Deception Point" by Dan Brown. For those who have not heard the story, it was about a meteorite found in an ice sheet in the Arctic. After drilling into it they found that it contained fossils and was proof of extraterrestrial life. I don't want to give to much of the story away, and I highly recommend it.



Critics say it is 360 Aluminum alloy, but I did a study of what makes up a 360 Aluminum alloy and by definition, it has a concentration of Tin. Bob's object has no Tin! If you do a cursory look at Bob's object and 360 Aluminum alloy, the first four elemental concentrations are pretty close, but you have do look at the trace elements in Bob's object and compare them with the trace elements in 360 Aluminum alloy. They don't match and Bob's object has no Tin! Dr. Robert H. Gibbons

Another important fact, and I believe they did not even comment on this in the test results did they?

Have you come up with any theory as to the purpose or reason a craft would eject an object made of these materials?



posted on Aug, 22 2005 @ 12:05 PM
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Hal, it could very well be fuel for a quantum reactor. It is possible that they had a few impurities and that during the fusion process they had to eject the fuel rod to keep it from damaging their reactor core. Althought the concept is still far ahead the possibility to use other elements for fusion is astronomical. If we look at the molecular structure of the object we might be able to see what it was used for. For some reason this rings true to me, because it reminds me a time of when my father was buring coal in the furnace and a particular big piece popped. Don't know if it had a gas or what in it.

Great read though


-Aza

[edit on 22-8-2005 by Azathoth]



posted on Aug, 22 2005 @ 12:05 PM
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I also sent an e-mail to Stanton Friedman asking what his take was on Bob White's fragment. This was his reply.



I have met BobWhite and seen the object. I do have several comments about
the test results presented.
In the first place, if I want testing done, I stay away from universities. I
find licensed commercial forensic labs who have done the particular test
many times, who agree to have their names used, who will stand behind their
work at a press conference or in court.. Commerical alloys all have a range
of values for the abundance of the various constituents.. such as 8-10%
Chromium in a particluar stainless steel. Often they have no limits or test
data on low abundance elements because, in the first place it rarely makes a
difference, and in the second place because often the heat of metal, say iron
or aluminum,will vary a bit because of where it came from and smelting
techniques.
I notice that NM Tech gives values for density, hardness, and resistivity
for the sample, but not for AL 360 .Also they didn't measure the constituents
for Alloy 360 using the same techniques. NL does not mean there is none there.
Even isotope ratios can be slightly different depending on the geological
history of ore sources.
The best I can say is that this is an unusual object, but that its origin is still in my gray basket.


I agree that if a comparison with aluminum 360 is made, similar results should be made available for comparison. If they had done a similar test before on AL360, maybe NM Tech or another lab would provide it if it was requested.



posted on Aug, 22 2005 @ 12:10 PM
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I email Friedman all the time. He uses the term "gray basket" a lot.



posted on Aug, 22 2005 @ 01:36 PM
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Here is the complete report from Joe Fandrich of Mesa State College in Grand Junction, CO paid for by Flame TV for "Jane Goldman Investigates". Fandrich refused to believe Bob's story how he found it, but believed where he found it. That's not good science. Dr. Robert H. Gibbons

Bob White’s Unusual Object April 2, 2004
Joe W. Fandrich Planetary Research Geologist, Mesa State College, Grand Junction, CO

INTRODUCTION

On Sunday, March 28, 2004 Mr. Bob White presented me with an unusual object for my inspection. The object is tear-drop shaped, approximately 28.5 cm long, 8.0 cm around at its greatest diameter and tapers to approximately 1.0 cm in diameter. The object’s surface exhibits a “feathered” pattern. The object has bilateral symmetry through the long axis when oriented with the most rounded side either up or down. With the mosted rounded side down and when observing the object from the front, this symmetry is obvious with two distinguishable nodes present on the top of the object.

The object has been cut by saw near the front (greatest diameter) and at its tail (smallest diameter) by Los Alamos National Laboratory, December 11, 1996. Various laboratories have made studies of this object and have determined its metallurgy, quantitative and qualitative chemistry, density, etc.

PURPOSE

The purpose of this investigation is to present a non-prejudicial scientific examination of the Bob White object and to present viable explanations based upon fact for its existence as we see it today.

METHODS

1. Cursory physical examination of the whole object in question and hearing of Bob White’s experience in collecting the object, with follow-up study of previous documentation and study of a section cut from the tail only of the object under a metallurgical microscope “(March 28, 2004);
2. Scanning Electron Microscope (SEM) observation of the microscopic character of the object’s tail surface under high power (three micrographs were taken under various powers);
3. Energy Dispersive Spectroscopy (EDS) analysis of the object with a qualitative chemistry result of the object’s primary elemental constituents; thee locations on the object were tested to determine any differences that might exist from previous work accomplished bhy other labs, and
4. Application of physical laws as a factual representation of the creation of the object with the elemental chemistry and physics as confining parameters.

RESULTS OF TESTING AND OBSERVATIONS
Detailed Optical Microscopy

The surface of the aluminum object is ornamented by melt particle migration “feathers”. These feathers are actually thousands of minute tails that have resulted from molten aluminum migrating from the frontal
area of the primary object to the rear and ultimately forming a tail. This process of melt material migration began as the object’s surface temperatures came greater than +/- 600 degrees C or about the
temperature that can be attained in a common household oven. The increase in surface temperature of the object is a result of friction developed as the object passed through a gaseous atmosphere at high
velocity. At +/- 600 degrees C ablation of the primary object begins and melt material migration toward the tail is initiated. The presence of the feathered surface, a tail and an ablation ring support this observation.

SEM/EDS Observtions--Dr. Richard C. Dujay, Center for Microscopy, Mesa State College

A scanning electron microscope (SEM) was used to observe the outer physical surface of the Al object. The qualitative chemistry chemistry of the object was determined by energy dispersive spectroscopy (EDS).
SEM micrographs (three) were collected and given to Bob White’s group. EDS was performed and the qualitative chemistry was determined.
SEM observations were determined to support the hypothesis of external melt of the AL object. EDS chemistry reconfirmed the object to be primarily aluminum (Al), Silicon (Si), and iron (Fe).

Discussion--Object Provenance: A Glaring Omission by Previous Studies
The Bob White object is the result of deformation of a primary aluminum casting (part). This casting was designed and manufactured by molding a common alloy identified as a “360 aluminum casting alloy” (determined by previous lab. work). This alloy is not present as a naturally occurring metal. This object was not entirely molten while the melt migration “feathers” were being formed. Only the exterior frontal portion of the primary casting was ablated and melted. This casting (i.e. part) experienced a high velocity passage through an atmosphere. This high velocity passage caused heating of the Al object, ablation and erosion of the primary part’s frontal area, development of the feathered surface as a result of melting aluminum from the primary object and ablation ring, and cretion of the long tail of the object as observed today.

Conclusions--A Summary of Probabilities and Possibilities
This unusual aluminum object was discovered on the Earth’s surface. How it arrived at the surface or how it became the property of Bob White is not important to this investigation. However, it is important to note that this object has been severely altered from its original shape by high velocity atmospheric friction and formed into the tear-drop shape we observe today by passage through an atmosphere. Probabilities of the history of this object range from the purposeful distruction of an off-course test
missile from the Green River Missile Range, Green River, Utah, to the atmospheric breakup and frictional disintegration of an Earth-orbiting staellite. These scenarios would explain the 360 aluminum casting alloy as well as the description of Bob White’s observations during the object’s discovery. The possibility that the object is the product of a failed high-voltage electric transmission line has been suggested, however there are no such transmission lines in the area where this object was collected by
Bob White (i.e., the area described by Bob White near the Utah/Colorado state line on Highway 6 and 50). The radiation emitted by the object is not considered unusual as most objects in our universe emit radiation, including the human body. Whether or not this object is the result of other than a primarily terrestrial event is only to be entertained as conjecture. At this time and with the results of this and prior research, it is possible to state that this is a manufactured object hat does not exist naturally and that is the product of an explosion and/or high temperature velocity passage through an atmosphere, probably Earth’s, with frictionally induced alteration and associated exterior ornamentation (i.e., “feathered” tails)

Respectfully submitted April 26, 2004 Joe W. Fandrich

Figure 1. Aluminum object exhibiting a crude ablation ring, a feathered surface, and a typical tail developed by melt material migration from the front of the object (i.e., from right to left in this figure)
Figure 2. Frontal view of the aluminum object showing the bilaterial symmetry (right and left halves divided by a line between A and B), the melted outer “crust” and the inner (lighter) portion of the primary or original relatively unaltered portion of this object.
Figure 3. X-ray exposure (48 hours) performed by Robert H. Gibbons. This exposure supports the +/- bilateral symmetry of the primary object. The two dark areas represent the object’s casting pattern as observed from a frontal view. The casting formed a concentration of Aluminum 360 alloy which allowed for this exposure to concentrate these dark areas; the result of radiation emitted from the alloy.
Figure 4. Ablation ring (black outlines).


Ox

posted on Aug, 22 2005 @ 03:10 PM
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Hmm.. To me, it kinda looks like a stalegtite.. But it does look like it's been exposed to some friction and hardened in doing so.. Alien though? Who knows, after the pretty conclusive findings of the minerals.. I'd have to say no, It could be something that fell off in mid flight of an aircraft, Space shuttle possibly? (Which does happen, things do fall off) and hardened on its way back to earth. But to say YES it is alien is kinda jumping to conclusions. Deny Ignorance..



posted on Aug, 22 2005 @ 03:44 PM
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Originally posted by Ox
It could be something that fell off in mid flight of an aircraft, Space shuttle possibly? (Which does happen, things do fall off) and hardened on its way back to earth.

I would agree except for the Strontium isotope ratio matches that of a meteorite, and it is clearly not natural.



But to say YES it is alien is kinda jumping to conclusions.

The only thing that suggests it is alien, is the UFO sighting itself, which Bob has passed three polygraph tests in regard to it.



Deny Ignorance..

Hmm... Lets see, reviewing scientific data, reading personal testimony, discussing with a scientist who has worked with the object...

I would say we are doing just that.


Ox

posted on Aug, 22 2005 @ 04:02 PM
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I didnt say I was disagreeing at all. It just seems to me that every little "UFO" that is seen or strangely formed piece of metal is "Alien" ok..

1. A UFO is just that, An unidentified fly object, If by some miracle I was able to fly and someone spotted me and didnt know what I was, I would be a UFO..

I dont doubt his story and not at all calling him a liar, All I am saying is that there seems to be a whole lot of people out there that jump to these enormous conclusions that something has to be immediately alien.


Not trying to be rude.. just.. trying to make a point



posted on Aug, 22 2005 @ 08:49 PM
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Originally posted by Ox
I didnt say I was disagreeing at all. It just seems to me that every little "UFO" that is seen or strangely formed piece of metal is "Alien" ok..

No problem, and I understand that with all the other people claiming to have stuff from a UFO it gets to be ridiculous, and sounds like tabloid material. Did you see the recent pieces put up on E-bay? What a joke. There is a thread on it that you can search if you like.



1. A UFO is just that, An unidentified fly object, If by some miracle I was able to fly and someone spotted me and didnt know what I was, I would be a UFO..

I dont doubt his story and not at all calling him a liar, All I am saying is that there seems to be a whole lot of people out there that jump to these enormous conclusions that something has to be immediately alien.


Not trying to be rude.. just.. trying to make a point


Your right that a UFO is just that unidentified. And it is a leap in logic to think they are aliens or extraterrestrials without proof. I didn't think your reply was rude, and apologize that my reply implied that, but I wrote it when I was in a hurry. It's all good.

But what I am trying to do is step through this case logically and rule out the most obvious explanations first. Putting aside Bob White's testimony, I thought the easiest explanation was that the object was formed naturally in space and fell to earth as a meteorite. I can say now with certainty that it is not, based the concentration of the aluminum, and on Dr Gibbons remarks in previous posts.

The next obvious explanation to me would be a piece of man-made space junk that fell to the earth. Now the Strontium isotope ratio was measured and the values were similar to those of a meteorite. So it probably did not form here on earth. But Dr. Gibbons is saying that the definitive test for that is in the Chromium isotope ratios, which has yet to be done.

But if it were done and proven not to be manmade and it is not formed naturally, then by definition it would have to be extraterrestrial in origin.

Now put that information together with Bob's testimony, and you can see how important this case could be.


Ox

posted on Aug, 24 2005 @ 03:24 PM
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I think you're right, By definition that yeah, you could call it something that wasnt man made if those tests prove to be conclusive. It can also be something that some nit with metal worker with too much time on his hands decided to fabricate in his shop and sell for a few million bucks, or just settle for some publicity, If you havent noticed all it takes to become a celebrity today is 2 minutes of tv time on the news or some bogus reality tv show.. So.. Time will tell..




posted on Aug, 24 2005 @ 09:09 PM
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I understand the skepticism, because so many have made similar claims and turned out to be false. But you also have to look at it objectively otherwise we might miss something important. In fact I believe a lot of the false information is put out on purpose just for that reason. But that is another topic.

Strontium isotope ratios are something you can't fake. It tells were the original ore came from that the aluminum was extracted from. I will be looking into this more, but from what I gather, the ratios are the same as meteorites from the planet Mars. I don't think they match any on Earth, but I need to research that first. Dr. Gibbons said the Chromium isotope ratios were more definitive, but I don't know why yet.

In the previous post that Dr. Gibbons provided, it explains how the fragment was formed. It was at 600 degree temperature at the same time it was free falling at a high velocity in order to form the tail and be covered with scales. That is not something you can do in your garage at home, or in a metal shop.

It is also impossible for it to have formed naturally. So it had to be extracted from an ore other than any on Earth, and it is not natural. Regardless of Bob White's story of it being ejected from a UFO, if it is not terrestrial, then it must be extraterrestrial. Meaning it was not created here on our planet. So some other intelligence must have created it, and left it behind.

I need to do more research into this before I am completely convinced. But I think Bob White should follow the advice of Stanton Friedman, and verify the results with forensic labs that will stand behind their findings. All I'm saying is that we shouldn't write this off as just another hoax. It is definitely worth studying more.



posted on Aug, 25 2005 @ 04:02 AM
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Originally posted by Hal9000
In the previous post that Dr. Gibbons provided, it explains how the fragment was formed. It was at 600 degree temperature at the same time it was free falling at a high velocity in order to form the tail and be covered with scales. That is not something you can do in your garage at home, or in a metal shop.

It is also impossible for it to have formed naturally. So it had to be extracted from an ore other than any on Earth, and it is not natural. Regardless of Bob White's story of it being ejected from a UFO, if it is not terrestrial, then it must be extraterrestrial. Meaning it was not created here on our planet. So some other intelligence must have created it, and left it behind.



So I was thinking about this , what velocity exactly would cause similar effects? Or is it more of a range, like 800 F @ 250 k/p/h - 550 F @ 900 k/p/h, ( Just punching in Numbers , but you get the idea).

You said it was impossible to be formed that way naturally , but could it not have been formed by slowing in the atmosphere until it formed and fell to earth? A fragment that just didn't burn up completely? Just a thought.



posted on Aug, 25 2005 @ 06:58 AM
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Originally posted by lost_shaman
So I was thinking about this , what velocity exactly would cause similar effects? Or is it more of a range, like 800 F @ 250 k/p/h - 550 F @ 900 k/p/h, ( Just punching in Numbers , but you get the idea).

You said it was impossible to be formed that way naturally , but could it not have been formed by slowing in the atmosphere until it formed and fell to earth? A fragment that just didn't burn up completely? Just a thought.

The report did not give any estimates on velocity, but Dr. Gibbons said that someone was going to do a computer simulation, which would determine velocity. I would think it could be determined roughly from the description from Bob that he found it lying in a trench 18 inches deep, along with the weight of the object. To me it sounds like there was additional force behind it and not just the force of gravity if falling from orbit. Also, Dr. Gibbons has given me another lead to check, a report that describes the condition of orbital debris when re-entering the atmosphere, and it supposedly does not match. I would also think that if it were space junk, there would be a whole collection of similar pieces, and not just one or two.

The reason it could not be formed naturally is the concentration of aluminum at 85%, could not occur unless it was refined (extracted from ore). I will do more research into the composition of meteorites, which should give a clearer picture.



posted on Aug, 25 2005 @ 07:53 AM
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I drove Stanton Friedman from the Kansas City International Airport to Kimberling City, MO where he was keynote speaker of our Tri-Lakes UFO Conference. He told me and later told Bob White to use a forensics laboratory rather than a university laboratory to test Bob's object. We contacted a number of laboratories to see if they could do the tests we needed. Unfortunately, at that time, two of the four laboratories in the world that could do the Chromium isotope abundance ratio tests were connected with universities (Scripps in the U.S. and a university in Germany). The other two laboratories were connected with NASA, so we would have to get permission from the U.S. government to get their scientists to use NASA equipment to do the tests.

Please note in the Joe Fandrich report I put on this thread that his measurements were in Centigrade rather than Fahrenheit. 600 degrees Fahrenheit is not much hotter than a household oven! Flame TV paid Joe Fandrich for his tests and we were never given the computer analysis of the velocity of Bob's object. I shall contact Flame TV and see if he ever sent them copies. Dr. Robert H. Gibbons



posted on Aug, 27 2005 @ 05:45 PM
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I asked Dr. Gibbons what the difference is between Strontium and Chromium isotopes and why Chromium was more definitive. This was his reply.



Let me quote an email from Chris MacIsaac at the La Jolla Isotope Lab for Cosmochemistry dated May 2, 1999: "The Strontium 84/88 ratio for Earth and most of the known solar system is 0.006745 +/- 0.000002. We measured at La Jolla yesterday the Strontium 84/88 ratio for Bob's object at 0.006746 +/- 0.000002 which is indistinguishable from Earth and the nearby asteroid belt. The other ratio we measured for Strontium is the 87/86 ratio. This ratio for the planet Earth varies from 0.702000 up to 2.50000. If you return a ratio of 0.698800 or lower, you can absolutely conclude that you have an extraterrestrial sample. We measured yesterday at La Jolla the Strontium 87/86 ratio for Bob's object at 0.711933 +/- 0.000026. The concentration for Strontium was 200 parts per billion."

Now, what do we have here? On the surface, it appears that the Sr 87/86 ratio in Bob's object is higher than the threshold value to say that Bob's object is extraterrestrial. Just before I left Reeds Spring a year and a half ago, and after I found that two known Martian meteorites had a Sr 87/86 value higher than Chris MacIssac's threshold value, I finally got an email from him that he was going to alter his threshold value, but that having a Sr 87/86 ratio between two Martian meteorites didn't mean Bob's object came from Mars. The figures for the two meteorites and Bob's object were shown on the recent "UFO Hunters" program on the History Channel.

Do you understand how these numbers are measured? Chris MacIsaac said he was able to separate out Strontium isotopes from the other isotopes in Bob's object using a mass spectrometer and was able to get only 200 parts per billion of Strontium, including all three isotopes. Then he measured the different ratios and made his calculations. In his original analysis of Bob's object, he said he was able to measure 5 parts per mission of Chromium, so why didn't he do the Chromium 53/54 isotope abundance ratios? I think he did, because he used the phrase "we are going to revisit Chromium" in his final fax. He also does tests for NASA and the European Space Agency, so was his actual analysis suppressed?

If you have any other questions, please don't hesitate to ask.
Dr. Robert H. Gibbons


Basically the Strontium isotope test revealed that it is within the threshold range for Earth and the asteroid belt. It is also in the same range as two meteorites from Mars, but that doesn't mean it originated from Mars. And the Strontium tests do not conclude that it was extraterrestrial, but the Chromium isotope test might reveal that it is, if they can get the test done.



posted on Aug, 27 2005 @ 06:30 PM
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I also recieved a reply from Meteorite.fr asking if aluminum is ever found in meteorites after visiting their website.

www.meteorite.fr...

Is it possible for a meteorite to be composed mainly of aluminum? I have not seen any mention of aluminum in any of the classifications. I believe that it is not possible for aluminum to be found in it's pure form naturally either on earth or in space. Is this assumption correct?

The reply was short but definitive.




you're right no Al found in any meteorites.

Cheers from France,

Bruno & Carine
La Memoire de la Terre Sarl
The Earth's Memory LLC
France

This was just to satisfy my own assumption that it could not have been a meteorite. This along with the previous post by Dr. Gibbons that said it could not be formed naturally, eliminates that possibility.


I also looked into the possibility that it was a piece of space junk that re-entered the atmosphere. We all know that heat is generated when re-entering the atmoshere, but so far I am finding alot of debris has still retained it's recognizable shape after falling back to earth.

Here are some pictures of remnents of a Delta 2 Rocket from Space.com







The objects were later identified. They were remnants of the second stage of a Delta 2 rocket that had hurled into orbit a Global Positioning Satellite over four years earlier. The biggest chunk was a large propellant tank. The other pieces were a pressurization sphere and a rocket-exhaust nozzle.

www.space.com...

After seeing these pictures it is hard to imagine how something could melt into the undistinguishable item like Bob Whites fragment.



posted on Aug, 28 2005 @ 06:34 AM
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I noticed there was a typo in the quote from Chris MacIsaac that I sent to HAL9000. The Chromium level should read "5 part per MILLION. The point was if Chris MacIsaac could get a Strontium isotope abundance ratio measurement from a sample of parts per billion, then why couldn't he get a Chromium reading from parts per million. As I said in the message to HAL9000, I think MacIsaac was able to measure Chromium because he used the word "revisit" in his final fax to Bob White. Dr. Robert H. Gibbons



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