Bush Advocates Teaching ID in Schools, page 1

Nygdan
We are pretty much in agreement on most of your post.
I agree, that ABC takes a weak response from Bush and make it sound like he is indorcing ID. I believe that Bush actually was trying to say that education should not be stymied and should embrace open discussion.
Maybe this just a continuation ABC News woes. Look at Russia's response to ABC News and it's agendas
quote.bloomberg.com... refer=home

We both agree that ID / Creationism is not something that should be taught in of itself. Especially not in either history or science classroom It is not something that has been held up for peer review nor has ID / Creationism been able to stand up for scientific review. Such being the case.... then the subjects should not be handled as class material in anything other than a philosophy class.
I do disagree with a couple of things

As far as teachers teaching whats wrong with creationism, I don't think that they shoudl be doing that either. The subject shouldn't be covered at all. Creationism is first an foremost a religion. We really don't want public school teachers explaing why any particular religion is wrong, and you can't really address creationism in an upfront manner without getting into religion.

You may have missed my point on this one. Granted, ID and Creationism are religiously based topics. What I advocate is that if / when a student asks a question in a classroom environment, the teacher should either respond to the student. Inform them of why certain "scientific" questions are based off of "bad science" and all other ID / Creationism questions should be directed towards the student's parents, religious leaders, public libraries etc.
By not responding to a question posed by a student due to it linkage to a religion will only foster the perception that there is something to hide. If the question is of a "scientific" nature and it is based off of bad usage of science, then the teacher should instruct why "such and such a conclusion" is incorrect. The teacher should then instruct the students in the proper use of scientific methods. By doing this, not only will the students learn that certain ID / Creationist assumptions are wrong, but now the students are better equipped to understand science and how it works.

The best way to teach these things is to simply give students a good, strong, thorough education in science, that includes gracity, astronomy, chemistry, and evolution. Given that, the students will be able to understand these issues for themselves.

Agreed! but as I stated above, by not instructing the students in how to properly utilize the scientific methods, then the students will not have the foundation of knowledge that they will need in order to dismiss incorrect assumptions put forth. If the teachers were actually providing the students with a solid education in science, then of course, the "questions" raised by ID / Creationism would not be put forth in the classroom in the first place

I also think that its underhanded to have a political movement handing out lists of pre-approved questions to 'ask' in a science class, given that those precise same questions have been answered long before the pamphlets were printed out. THe people handing them out weren't interested in the answers, they were interested in the politics of it all. But generally if a student asks a question, it should be answered sure, bt its not so cut and dry.

We both heartedly agree on this point. As long as the group had held to the assumption of presenting a possible alternative to evolution, I supported them. But as soon as they started to show their true colors then of course, I joined the decriers and poo-poo'd them.
Again though, once the teachers refused to respond to the questions, when no one from the scientific community appeared during the public forums in Topeka, then they the teachers and scientists were also in the wrong. If (and I agree with you on this) the questions had been responded to previously, and shown that the questions had no merit, then why the head in the sand response. I would have thought that since the ground work had already been done, it would have been so very easy for the educators and science community to show just how fraudlent the questions were. This would have strengthened the teachers position instead of weakening it as they have done.

"If we evovled from apes then why are there still apes' is a decent question (if the class hasn't covered evolution at all. Its a stunningly basic question, and if you've covered evolution a student shouldnt' even be asking such a question, they should already know whats going on). And a science teacher can answer it by going over the mechanics of population isolation and the accumulation of differences over time in response to different environments for the two now seperated populations, etc etc.

With that one statement, you have proiven my point. Unfortunately, instead of taking the steps that you have outlined, the teachers response has been...............................................nothing

However, do we really want biology teachers answering
"If man evolved from apes, then that means that there was no original sin and that jesus's death was unecessary and infact probably didn't happen doesn't it?"????? I mean, does anyone actually want open and honest discussion like that in schools??? ;

100% behind you on this. The question as you have phrased it should at the very most be somethign to be discussed in a theology or philosophy class and the teacher should be open and able to respond to such a question easily by directing the student to the proper forum / sources. Instead, the teacher's response............................. Nothing.

And to take it a little further, what happens when you have schools with large populations of islamic students in it, say in detroit public schools, and you are trying to teach biology, and you have fundamentalist students askig about how such and such finding doesn't correlate with the holy koran, and then has to explain the context of the verse and the students have to be taugh at least the basic components of islamic theology and islamic scientific thought? Let alone what would happen if some schools start actually teaching out and out Christian Creationism, and then we have Islamic fundamentalist maddrasses being supported by Public Funds!

Nygdan, you missed this

And before the question gets asked by someone, I am not advocating any one single religion nor any one single creation / ID belief. I am advocating that the teachers should at least be familiar with the subjects, infomr students of what is "bad" science, instruct the students to seek instruction form parents, religious leaders, libraries etc.

If by chance a question is posed by a student in school that is more properly addressed in another forum such as theology / philosophy classes, or by parents religious leaders then the teacher should say so. If as you have put in your example, the population of the school is largely Islamic, then the teacher may (teacher's perogative) at least familiarize themselves with the Quran or if not, once such question is posed, tell the student "I do not know but let me take a look and get back with you on that" or then again... tell the student to go to their religious leaders.