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Alien Anthropologists

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posted on Aug, 1 2005 @ 11:02 PM
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So many alien visitation theories I've come across go by the premise that they are either here to help us, or to hurt us. I can't possibly cover all the major theories, but the "here to help" theories range simply from the idea that they're improving our technology or slowly introducing us to a Galactic Federation of some sorts, to more far out theories and stuff about their positive influence in our "4th vibrational" transition after Earth's entry into some kind of energy field. The "here to hurt" theories primarily involve something like their desire to experiment with humans and create hybrids that will either overthrow humans or save their dying race, or simply to invade, kill off humans, and claim our immensly hospitable planet as their own.

You've all heard the other theories as well, so I won't give any more examples. I'm just thinking though, and I'm sure the notion has crossed some of your minds as well, that they might not be here to hurt us, or to help us. That there doesn't have to be a "black and white" mentality. Now, from the title you can guess what the other reason I'm thinking of may be...that they're here to study our culture in a time of great importance in our history, to study the millions of species that are unique to our planet, to study us, our history, and everything else for that matter. I mean, just look at us: millions of us are just grasping at every explaination out there, even the absurd ones, in hopes of learning something about alien races. If I had the ability to travel to another planet as diverse as our own, I'd surely want to study it. I'm sure that if aliens are visiting us, there are those with ill-intent. We're probabaly not the only race capable of harvesting a negative thought and acting in our own self interest knowing that it will cause harm elsewhere. But it just seems logical to me, that if we are still here, and the ET's know about us that they probably aren't here for conquest. I'm sure a nasty little virus could efficienly take us out with no consequence to the planet.

Yeah, our governments are hiding technologies from us and technologically we probably live decades in the past (my grandfather used to work on Black Projects for NASA...it was something like 20 years back then), but if aliens are feeding us technology only to see the governments keep them from the public and turn them into weapons, they would surely stop. They'd probably know this ahead of time just from simple observation of our culture and would never offer any help, due to the fact that it would probably cause more harm than good in the long run. Sure the aliens as anthropologists and scientists is not nearly as interesting as the idea that they're here for a takeover, but in my opinion and from my observations, I'd say it's the logical theory. Anyone else (assuming you believe that ET's exist and have visited Earth) share a similar thought or disagree? Just throwing my opinion out there.




posted on Aug, 1 2005 @ 11:47 PM
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I really want to agree with the "aliens as anthropologists" theory, if only to know that some alien also spent 3 years on an Anthropology degree and couldn't find work on his planet either.
But I am forced to take the negative side of this argument, an argument you have presented extremely well.

If aliens are here as anthropologists, they are doing a terrible job. If they wish to merely study our culture, there are numerous ways to do so. The prime method I would use is to study our television and radio broadcasts, which we are conveniently beaming into space with reckless abandon. Whilst they (like us) would be forced to sift through a lot of irrlevant nonsense, they could learn an enormous amount about human cultures through simply kicking back and watching the tellie.

If their purpose was merely to observe and learn more about our culture, this would probably suffice. Most credible anthropologists will tell you that when studying a culture which has no contact with the outside world (that would be us, in this case) you should minimise the effect you will have on that culture. The argument posits that, even if you have noble intentions, you may inadvertently contribute to harming or irrevocably altering that culture in a negative way. This often leads to great debate in anthropological circles about the morality of making contact with isolated tribes, in the Amazon for instance. If contact were made, they would have access to modern medicines and technology, but then their culture would be forever altered by this intrusion. I would think that a sufficiently advanced race would see the wisdom in allowing a culture to develop along its own lines and would not attempt to directly observe or interact with us. Having said that, perhaps UFO sightings are their attempt to observe us from a distance. But if this is the case, they are fairly sloppy anthropologists and have already 'contaminated' our culture to an extent.

If they are studying us for scientific purposes, through abductions for example, again they are doing a fairly poor job. Why would they need so many specimens if their motives are peaceful scientific advancement? Our DNA is identical, one to another. Our biological makeup is essentially the same from person to person. Abduct, oh I don't know, 10 of us from random spots on the Earth to account for random alterations. This should tell you everything you want to know to build that human-specific atmospheric virus, er, I mean database.


I must conclude, then, that aliens are not here for the peaceful purpose of studying us, if they are here at all (which is a seperate issue). If they are trying to conduct anthropological reearch, they are sloppy and careless. If they are conducting harmless scientific study, they seem to be engaging in a bit of overkill, given the many hundreds or thousands of abduction cases reported and those that go unreported. If they are here, I don't think it's for any peaceful purpose.



posted on Aug, 2 2005 @ 12:02 AM
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zhangmaster,

I agree with you !

It makes sense. There is tons of evidence out there where they are simply observing us.

Thats something Scientists do is observe.

Glad to see Logic once and agian!



posted on Aug, 2 2005 @ 12:42 AM
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I think the idea that we are simply being studied is true, for some. But there are those indications such as Abductions which hint at perhaps other purposes.

I disagree that if study was the intent that much could be gained by observing television or radio signals. First is the matter of so much of that material being entertainment and therefore not really representitive of what we are really like. But even more important is the fact that without context even things like news would make little sense.

Jane Goodall (sp?) is widely acclaimed for her work with chimps and other apes. She learned as much as she has, much of it destroying the work of others in the process, because she knew that to really learn you have to immerse yourself in the study. In think it is quite possible that other Races have this same sort of attitude.

There is certainly a time for hidden observation, so as not to contaminate the study with your actions. But to gain real understanding of a living being you have to interact with them.

I do not think we can say that just because we sometimes see craft that they are sloppy. It might be that those we see are not really the ones who are doing the study, or it could be that the sightings are pure accidents. High tech does not lead to perfection and Murphy still rules.

The problem with any sort of attempt to make sense of the actions of Aliens is the fact that we do not know which craft contain which beings. Because this is such a big deal to us we just assume that nobody would travel lightyears for reasons that are not important. But what if that is not the case.

Our own history shows that at first any new technology for travel is only used for things of importance. The first planes were used for War, to deliver the mail, and other such useful things. But today private pilots sometimes take to the air just for the fun of it.

I know some people are going to scoff at this, but I have had a feeling about some of the mass sightings we have experienced (DC in 1952 and the more recient Mexico sightings). What if those simply represent a form of tourist? I know, some argue that it is impossible to cross instellar distances but I do not feel there is any rational basis for that thought. What if a Race, or Races, have made space travel so commonplace that every once in a while a bunch of people get together to take a look. They are not scientists, and might not care if we notice or not.

Along the same line I have suggested that perhaps crop circles are just jokes played by the young of the Races with this sort of ability? What if they are not as different from us as we like to think?


A.T
(-)



posted on Aug, 2 2005 @ 01:02 AM
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Alexander-

First, let me say that it's great to finally meet you in one of these forums. I have enormous respect for you. You're right, of course, in pointing out that our lack of information makes it difficult to assess alien's intentions. Aliens are, by their very definition, alien to us. When we examine their intent, we are forced to do so through human experiences, assumptions and essentially make our best guess. Who knows, their motivations may be something completely and wholly incomprehensible, something truly alien in nature. However, I tend to think that perhaps you are correct in stating that we may not be so different. I have also considered the possibility that they may feel no need (as we may) to conceal their identity or to take steps to ensure our safety. They may consider themselves to be so far beyond us that they simply don't care if our culture is affected. Until they decide the time for secrecy is over, I guess we'll continue to guess.

By the way, the idea of aliens as tourists is a fantastic one, in my opinion. It is entirely possible that life may not be as widespread as many assume it to be and that Earth may be a 'wilderness preserve' of sorts. Also, the idea of aliens taking photos of us with 10 000 000 megapixel cameras is just too cool for words. "Damn, that crowd of gawking, awestruck humans have red-eye. Joe, turn the saucer around".



posted on Aug, 2 2005 @ 07:02 AM
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It would seem like their work is very sloppy from all the UFO's we've been seeing. Looking at maps of UFO sightings in the last decade alone shows this. If a single dot represented a report of a UFO, the US would be completely illuminated. I just believe that the majority of these sightings are not craft piloted by ET's, but rather advanced craft made by us humans, possibly from reverse engineering alien craft. I agree with you Alexander in the belief that some of them could be tourists. We're a very interesting species on a very diverse planet, and it would surely be a great place to tour. Perhaps the ET's interested in studying our culture have been keeping their presence low-key, while the stupid tourists and punks are exposing themsleves to us, wrecking our cornfields


[edit on 2-8-2005 by zhangmaster]



posted on Aug, 2 2005 @ 01:25 PM
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Let me joke a little :

Mabye their doing the same as we are doing with animals making Animal Documentary





anyway your thought and theory sounds good and true



posted on Aug, 2 2005 @ 04:07 PM
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Humans have a tendency to anthropomorphize every little (or, more likely, big) thing they don't understand.

Pixar makes movies about insects who can speak, feel, even overthrow tyrannical Locust Overlords (you only thought they were reptilian), and we laugh and laugh, all the while thinking how comical it is that bugs could ever be like us. They are beneath us, after all, and that is simply absurd.

Yet we look up to the sky, faced with concepts and situations that we cannot control, and we start blathering on and on over the course of human history about gods and goddesses, how jealous this one is, how compassionate that one is, or perhaps that all those characteristics are rolled into one deity/overseer/Demiurge/Universal Force/whatever. We project everything that we observe about ourselves as humans on to what we believe is above us, never once thinking that what is above us may not be human, therefore may not be anything like we expect.

But doing this is comforting to the human psyche because it helps us relate, it enables us to believe that we have it all figured out, that with the appropriate blend of rationalization, intuition, and investigation, we can figure everything out and our little minds will eventually comprehend it.

News flash: If "aliens" are not by definition human, then assuming that they would be "curious enough" about us to warrant observation (regardless of their motivation, whether "good" or "bad") is dangerously erroneous. This stance presupposes that aliens experience cognition in the same paradigm as humans do, which has not thus far been established satisfactorily. So I would hesitate to speculate on their "motives".

I can see it now, the cows all huddled around each other in the barn, nervously discussing the recent "abductions", how those among them who bellowed too loudly and refused to submit were loaded up onto cattle cars and taken to the slaughterhouse in some huge conspiracy.

Meanwhile, the farmer inside is enjoying a nice juicy steak. (Maybe the farmer is you?)

Did you find that amusing? Maybe the aliens do, too.

Perhaps we are putting the cart before the horse here.




posted on Aug, 2 2005 @ 05:37 PM
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Jeremiah25,

You are most kind. I am sorry to admit that I know little about you but I am looking forward to changing that. I can already tell that I like the way you think.


Normally I spend time reminding people that most of the Alien Races are probably quite different from us and that human logic is a weak tool for any attempt at understanding. But there is a trap there, if you believe that there are some number of Races out there then some may be like us to a fair degree.

I think we are trying to solve a puzzle with too many pieces. Even if you throw out a significant number of sightings and other events we are still left with evidence of at least a handful of intelligent Races. If instead we were being visited by a single Race then I think the sightings would have already been fit into some sort of logical pattern.

I am well aware of the human tendency to fill in the blanks with things from our own experiences. We see something that we have no reference for and in our minds they become something they really are not. Compounding this problem is the fact that the vast majority of sightings and other events happen to people who are not trained observers. I have a book that might be of interest to anyone who has not read it yet 'Hidden Files' by Sue Kovach. Not all the stories are about UFOs, but they all come from Law Enforcement officiers. For me that given them a weight because of the training, and selfless dedication that goes with that sort of job.

Sure, police officiers can lie, they can crave attention, and all the other things that often cause us to dismiss reports. But for every bad cop, there are a 1,000 who are not. They risk their lives everyday for little reward. I have great respect for those in the military as well but they are not at risk from doing even the most basic of functions day in and day out.
At least not until the call to action comes.

It is not that I am expecting Captain Kirk to show up one of these days. But for us the whole subject of Life Elsewhere is a big deal, a very big deal. And because of that we tend to think in grand terms: Abductions for some sinister purpose, every Alien is telepathic, we are being manipulated for some hidden agenda, etc.

But even if there are some grand plans of this sort in motion, I just think it is just as possible that there are mundane ones as well. I am not being flip when I suggest 'Tourists' of some sort it is just that life has a habit of being much more simple than we sometimes think.

Anyone here ever been in a relationship where something odd seems to be happening? Our own fears make us generate all of these terrible thoughts 'She is cheating on me' is common. As our fears mount we take even insignificant events and assign sinister motives to it. It builds upon itself until we are 'Sure' we are about to suffer some horrible loss.

And then, the truth is revealed: A surprise party for our birthday!

If during my time here I could convince anyone of anything regarding this subject it would be: We have, and are, being visited by more than a single Race. Which makes it a little more obvious why with all the time and effort expended to try and understand what is going on we actually have come to few real conclusions.


A.T
(-)



posted on Aug, 3 2005 @ 02:11 AM
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Originally posted by Stegosaur
Humans have a tendency to anthropomorphize every little (or, more likely, big) thing they don't understand.

Pixar makes movies about insects who can speak, feel, even overthrow tyrannical Locust Overlords (you only thought they were reptilian), and we laugh and laugh, all the while thinking how comical it is that bugs could ever be like us. They are beneath us, after all, and that is simply absurd.

Yet we look up to the sky, faced with concepts and situations that we cannot control, and we start blathering on and on over the course of human history about gods and goddesses, how jealous this one is, how compassionate that one is, or perhaps that all those characteristics are rolled into one deity/overseer/Demiurge/Universal Force/whatever. We project everything that we observe about ourselves as humans on to what we believe is above us, never once thinking that what is above us may not be human, therefore may not be anything like we expect.

But doing this is comforting to the human psyche because it helps us relate, it enables us to believe that we have it all figured out, that with the appropriate blend of rationalization, intuition, and investigation, we can figure everything out and our little minds will eventually comprehend it.

News flash: If "aliens" are not by definition human, then assuming that they would be "curious enough" about us to warrant observation (regardless of their motivation, whether "good" or "bad") is dangerously erroneous. This stance presupposes that aliens experience cognition in the same paradigm as humans do, which has not thus far been established satisfactorily. So I would hesitate to speculate on their "motives".

I can see it now, the cows all huddled around each other in the barn, nervously discussing the recent "abductions", how those among them who bellowed too loudly and refused to submit were loaded up onto cattle cars and taken to the slaughterhouse in some huge conspiracy.

Meanwhile, the farmer inside is enjoying a nice juicy steak. (Maybe the farmer is you?)

Did you find that amusing? Maybe the aliens do, too.

Perhaps we are putting the cart before the horse here.




It seams like you got it


Some peoples have yet not figured it out



posted on Aug, 3 2005 @ 03:29 PM
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Stegosaur, I know very well that you can't take a strong stance on any beliefs you hold about their motives...this post just happens to be is an exercise in thought. I'm not saying that aliens ARE anthropologists and that everyone who thinks otherwise is wrong, only that it's a logical possibility that the majority of ET's visiting Earth could be here to study us. The logic being that if aliens have been visiting Earth for quite some time and we have seen no gigantic jumps in technology that would imply alien help, and we have not been attacked yet, it is very possible that they are here for a different reason which is observation for the sake of observation. Curiosity fuels invention and I have a hard time believing that any race that has the means for interstellar travel is not curious. If we don't openly think about the reasons they are here and what they are up to, this board would be reduced to a bunch of UFO reports
! As long as we don't unwaveringly submit to a theory behind their motives without any proof, I don't see why these mental exercises shouldn't continue.



posted on Aug, 3 2005 @ 04:39 PM
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Originally posted by zhangmaster
Curiosity fuels invention and I have a hard time believing that any race that has the means for interstellar travel is not curious.


While curiosity may fuel invention, necessity is the Mother of it. I'm thinking their interest in us may be more basic. You know, food, energy, mineral wealth, etc. I think we may be more likely to have "primal needs" in common with them than "recreational" ones. I'm not saying they couldn't be here "sightseeing". We do the same thing with Amazonian tribes, like they are some sort of freak show for our entertainment. But while we were there, we also discovered how we could exploit the environment to our (Westernized) financial advantage.

Which is more likely: colonialist explorers who just felt like wandering over to the New World to see what was here, out of sheer curiosity? Or was it the very deliberate and systematic search for land, potential slaves, and mineral wealth which was funded by those with a vested financial interest in the results of such an exploration (otherwise known as nobles and royalty)?

Ah, but this assumes that aliens could be greedy, opportunistic and heartless like we humans can so easily be.

This is my point: I rather doubt we are simply a tourist destination for anthropologist aliens because Occam's Razor would suppose that they are more likely to be hanging around for some more immediate benefit. It could be good for us, like they are helping us evolve so we don't destroy the rest of the Universe (far fetched but possible); it could be neutral, like a symbiotic arrangement or exchange that benefits both parties; or it could be bad for us, if they are simply exploiting us in a predatory fashion.

All I'm saying is that you can't assume that they are merely observing when so much evidence is still inaccessible. Just because advanced technology has not been revealed to the public does not mean it doesn't exist, so it is no indication of their level of involvement (or interference) in our existence. I would say the jury is still out on too much to make any rational conclusions about it.


As long as we don't unwaveringly submit to a theory behind their motives without any proof, I don't see why these mental exercises shouldn't continue.


I wholeheartedly agree and was not suggesting we should refrain from postulating. My angle was that we assume too much about them in the first place, that they have emotions like us, so therefore we are unnecessarily tainting the possible results of all our postulating by assuming facts not in evidence.

Yes, please, postulate away. Account for variables and unintentional bias while you do, for it surely helps the process.




posted on Aug, 3 2005 @ 08:08 PM
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Yes, I know, I'm just pointing out that curiosity does still play a major role in the inventive process. Perhaps putting the phrase in bold made it seem like I was referring to curiosity as the only fuel.

Sure, colonialists ventured to the New World mostly for necessity, that I don't argue with...I'm just wondering now if perhaps the ET's that went to Earth looking for mineral wealth, living space, etc found what they were looking for on our planet, but upon realizing that there was already a thriving society existing, decided not to bother us. Perhaps the masses on their planet wouldn't suport the slaughter of 6 billion people and the potential destruction of their homeworld, but were intrigued by our culture and instead decided to take on the role of the observer. This could also be wrong, and their governments are doing this without their knowledge, but like I said before, since they have been here for awhile (something I just believe, can't prove) I doubt that this is their intent. Half a century of planning is a little extreme if you ask me. Feel free to counter though...you'd have a point if you also said that you believe they've only just begun to visit Earth, and are planning an invasion.

Regarding the gifts of technology: It just seems unlikely in my opinion that an advanced race would give us technology when they know our nature. I assume they would know something about us before handing over technology because it would be wise to know what the people you intend to help, intend to do with the technology, how they will react to it, and the consequences that would be involved based on human nature. Even if they did end up giving us tech, they would soon find out that those in power hide it from the public and from other nations, and will usually try to find a way to weaponize it. If the reasoning behind giving a less advanced race is to wipe it out, then there go the slaves, the planet, and any hopes of colonizing it or using us as a workforce. I suppose minerals could still be harvested...that's a possibility. If they want to help us with tech, then what would be the point in giving a gift if those you give it to have no intention of sharing it, which would be the original purpose of the gift? There's logic behind these points, and I should hope that the aliens we would be dealing with are alse logical. So that's why i'd say they're not here to give us tech, but hey, I could easily be wrong. By the way, don't take my theories and thoughts as my version of the truth. Next week I could be postulating something like "maybe they're here for immediate gains because Occam's razor would dictate so
"

I still think that it is possible that the aliens could well be here for observation alone, which, I should expand to say, might have its base in giving fame and other benefits to the observer. That wouldn't violate Occam's Razor, would it? Anthropologists often study tribes for fame, prestige, money to keep on working, so I guess the same could also be true for aliens that are visiting us...we also have SETI, which was made and operates to "explore, understand and explain the origin, nature and prevalence of life in the universe."


[edit on 3-8-2005 by zhangmaster]



posted on Aug, 4 2005 @ 01:29 AM
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Originally posted by zhangmaster
Yes, I know, I'm just pointing out that curiosity does still play a major role in the inventive process. Perhaps putting the phrase in bold made it seem like I was referring to curiosity as the only fuel.


Alright. I agree with that.


I'm just wondering now if perhaps the ET's that went to Earth looking for mineral wealth, living space, etc found what they were looking for on our planet, but upon realizing that there was already a thriving society existing, decided not to bother us. Perhaps the masses on their planet wouldn't suport the slaughter of 6 billion people and the potential destruction of their homeworld, but were intrigued by our culture and instead decided to take on the role of the observer.


I would say you are optimistic, however you may be correct. I would say this is how I personally would approach the situation if I were an alien, but I'm not (last time I checked anyway) so perhaps some of the "races" are not so compassionate and peaceful.


Half a century of planning is a little extreme if you ask me. Feel free to counter though...you'd have a point if you also said that you believe they've only just begun to visit Earth, and are planning an invasion.


Twenty-four hours is a lifetime to a may-fly. Fifty years to us may be an afternoon siesta to them. Time is relative to the observer and is also a locally specific phenomenon. I would hesitate to speculate on what is a timely manner when dealing with species that do not originate here and may see our little concept of "time" as rather irrelevant in the overall scheme of things. However, I have no idea if they are "planning an invasion". Surely a "higher intelligence" wouldn't need that long to outsmart us, would they? Heck, we put everything about us as humans out there on TV and blast the signals into space... surely they'd know how to overthrow us by now simply by watching all the idiots on "Reality TV".


Regarding the gifts of technology: It just seems unlikely in my opinion that an advanced race would give us technology when they know our nature.


Two words: Trojan Horse. Beware aliens bearing gifts.

Give the humans nukes and they'll eventually destroy themselves, or at least dwindle to a manageable number.



If the reasoning behind giving a less advanced race is to wipe it out, then there go the slaves, the planet, and any hopes of colonizing it or using us as a workforce.


I suppose they could use the workforce of developing nations as slaves. But from the looks of it, most people living in post-industrialized cultures are too unhealthy and unmotivated due to inactivity and superiority complexes that they would make poor slaves indeed. Whining and complaining about no A/C or moon pies... "ahh those were the good old days, weren't they?"

My point on that is consider it from the outside view. I don't think we appear half as valuable as we'd like to think. I hope we are though, as scary as that may sound when you think about it. I suppose it's better than the alternative, you know, complete annihilation or whatever.



By the way, don't take my theories and thoughts as my version of the truth. Next week I could be postulating something like "maybe they're here for immediate gains because Occam's razor would dictate so
"


Ah that was brilliant.
Nicely done. It's fun to debate with someone who has more than two brain cells to rub together. Thanks for that.


I still think that it is possible that the aliens could well be here for observation alone, which, I should expand to say, might have its base in giving fame and other benefits to the observer. That wouldn't violate Occam's Razor, would it? Anthropologists often study tribes for fame, prestige, money to keep on working, so I guess the same could also be true for aliens that are visiting us...we also have SETI, which was made and operates to "explore, understand and explain the origin, nature and prevalence of life in the universe."


Yes, of course that's possible. Although SETI would never divulge their reasons if they were anything other than what the PR-parrot says. What do you expect them to say? "We know we are eventually going to completely ruin this planet and make it uninhabitable for humans to live on, so we need to find other planets to colonize and exploit in the future. We also want to know if there are any other life forms that we can pre-emptively declare as the new Axis of Evil, and we'd like your tax dollars to fund all of this 'benign exploration'."

Come on now.

BUT:
For the sake of argument, let's assume for a moment that they do exist (which I have no knowledge of but it is possible).

Let's also assume that they experience cognition and emotion in a similar fashion to humans, and that they may be considered "advanced" or of a "higher intelligence".

That being established, there have been numerous accounts of varying "races". I don't know them all because, admittedly, aliens aren't my thing. I have heard the Greys have a different agenda from the Reptilians, the Pleiadeans (sp?), etc. Now, given that variable, I would assume that they have different motives as well, and different methods of "interaction/interference", if they are in fact doing so. Maybe some study us, maybe some like us and want to help, and maybe some would like us as a crispy snack topped with ketchup.

I suppose it could be any and all of it. Without any direct experience with them myself, I've never had the opportunity to ask one, and dissect what they said to see if I thought they were being honest or not. I suppose being of a "higher intelligence" they'd be masters at propaganda and disinformation as well, much more so than ourselves... right?

Honestly, I have no idea. And I don't think I will anytime soon. Call me a pessimist, a skeptic, a cynic, whatever, but with so many variables, how could we know anything about them for sure?

BTW you make great points, so good job.



posted on Aug, 4 2005 @ 10:32 AM
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Because of our careless and relentless habit of blasting every bit of our culture through radiowaves in space, I believe that the aliens would learn everything they need to know about us in a relatively short time period, and certainly in less time than 50 years which is why I believe that if they were going to attack, they would have done so already. Time is relative however so I won't go much further with that, but I'll say I agree that it's possible that to a species with a lifespan of something like 2000 years, 50 years is nothing.

I feel that the trojan horse idea linked to nuclear weapons is a little weak. With the Trojan Horse, the gift, once received, is definately going to result in deaths of many people, and perhaps the destruction of the entire culture. With nuclear weapons however, the aliens cannot be sure whether or not we will use them to destroy ourselves. The best they can do is say "based on the aggressive narure of humans, there is a chance that they will use these weapons to destroy themselves to the extent we desire". We have nuclear nonproliferation treaties, the rules of engagement which prohibit the use of such weapons in a war, and alliances of many nations to keep peace in times of tension, so I doubt a plan such as this is a very sound one. I'd personally feel much safer knowing that the hostile aliens are dealing with are such poor military planners.

While they wait, and wait, and wait for us to use the nukes extensively on ourselves, we are advancing at an ever increasing pace. You could also say that the species are so advanced technologically that they can afford to wait a long time without fear that humans will surpass them in tech, but if that were the case, they shouldn't have to resort to a Trojan Horse in the first place. If I were an alien that advanced, I would simply destroy the population from space because that is the only way you can be assured of their destruction. Of course I'm not an alien (at least i wasn't last time I checked) but then again, last month my friends girlfriend who was on acid, screamed out "he's an alien!" upon gazing at me, and locked herself in my car, so who knows
. (True story by the way)

To say that SETI is merely an organization with the purpose to observe and understand life elsewhere in the universe is a more solid argument than saying that their purpose is to exploit other planets, although this could also be true, and makes logical sense. I'm saying this because we have no proof that this is their agenda, but we can go on their mission statement which is more reliable than unfounded theories. I wouldn't apply this argument to the government/alien case. Sure the governments are denying the existence of aliens, so by my very argument their statements would be more credible than every other alien visitation theory, but I am not going by what they say or don't say, just by reading news reports, talking to people, examing history, and my forming own beliefs. I've never looked at SETI from your point of view before, and I appreciate you bringing this up. Although I think it lacks credibility (can you offer proof?) I think it's a real possibility and a sound theory


I too have enjoyed this discussion so far, although I'm not sure how much there is left to discuss. It's always good to have someone to examine your own beliefs, or thoughts for this matter and help you to refine them.

[edit on 4-8-2005 by zhangmaster]



posted on Aug, 4 2005 @ 11:02 AM
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Originally posted by Jeremiah25
I really want to agree with the "aliens as anthropologists" theory, if only to know that some alien also spent 3 years on an Anthropology degree and couldn't find work on his planet either.
But I am forced to take the negative side of this argument, an argument you have presented extremely well.

If aliens are here as anthropologists, they are doing a terrible job.




Speaking as another anthropologist, I heartily agree! Using even slightly advanced technology, there are far more ways to gather the data in such a way that nobody would know they were here.

And why bother the Earth for limited mineral resources when there are uninhabited planets (even here in our solar system) with untouched resources? Why bother with slaves when you can have robots and androids? You don't have to feed them and they don't rebel (speaking as someone who owns a robot.)



posted on Aug, 4 2005 @ 11:41 AM
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Originally posted by zhangmaster
I feel that the trojan horse idea linked to nuclear weapons is a little weak.


Surely. I didn't really intend to make a strong case, only to cast a shadow of doubt on the subject. I don't necessarily believe in the Trojan Horse suggestion myself, but it is a possibility, as are a billion other scenarios without sufficient evidence, which is what the real dilemma is here.


Of course I'm not an alien (at least i wasn't last time I checked) but then again, last month my friends girlfriend who was on acid, screamed out "he's an alien!" upon gazing at me, and locked herself in my car, so who knows
. (True story by the way)


Hear that knock at your door? That's half of the members at ATS waiting outside so you can take them to your leader. I'm sure some of them will be "chemically altered" as well.



I've never looked at SETI from your point of view before, and I appreciate you bringing this up. Although I think it lacks credibility (can you offer proof?) I think it's a real possibility and a sound theory


No, of course there would be no proof of that even if it were true, and I'm certainly not saying it is. I'm sure they are all harmless little scientists with good intentions and a healthy sense of curiosity.

I was in the mood to muddy the water as an example of how there are so many possibilities and so little evidence that at this point in our evolution, we are still unable to know for sure. That's it. Enough variables and enough doubt that no solid theory ever really emerges.

I appreciate your comments.



posted on Aug, 4 2005 @ 12:38 PM
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Hear that knock at your door? That's half of the members at ATS waiting outside so you can take them to your leader. I'm sure some of them will be "chemically altered" as well.


Oh dear God! What have I done? Is my address off ATS? Darn! Better get my stuff....plastic comb....check....wax paper....check....bicycle powered flying saucer replica, kiddie pool and transparent rod to stand on....check...episode 9-13 of the simpsons...check!
. Thanks for the discussion and the perspective Stegosaur.

Byrd, I agree that aliens coming here for minerals would be a waste of time when, like you said yourself there are countless other planets that harbor whatever it is they need. I'm just trying to cover a few possible reasons in this thread, and can't completely rule out any one of them since we don't have the knowledge to make these kinds of assumptions.

About anthropology, the thousands upon thousands of UFO reports/stories do indeed point to sloppy work, but as I said before, I'd put money on the belief that many of these sightings are just us in advanced craft that haven't been revealed to the public yet. It's possible as well, that the aliens who are making their presence known may not be the scientist type. Perhaps they heard through the grapevine that there was a civilization on the edge of the galaxy that had already had two world wars, has just achieved spaceflight, and is facing an environmental collapse...not to mention the missing link itself ruling over the most powerful nation with its finger on the button! (please take that last one lightheartedly
)

[edit on 4-8-2005 by zhangmaster]



posted on Aug, 6 2005 @ 04:44 AM
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I certainly agree that we are not going to come to any great resolution about the motives of any of the Races that seem to be visiting. But I do think it is important that we continue to consider all sorts of possibilites.

I see this thread as a welcome breath of fresh air to counter all the people who are just so sure that there must be sinister reasons behind all the secrecy. I am certainly willing to consider that some Races who are intelligent are so different from us that we have no hope of ever even communicating with them.

When we define a Race as intelligent what exactly does that mean? To some degree or another it means that we can recognize some elements of thought patterns that share something in common with our own. If they do not then how could we even recognize them?

For example there are many, including myself, who feel that Dolphins have a high degree of intelligence but of an order that is far different from our own. It is only fairly reciently that people have begun to try and find ways to communicate with them. To get to this point required someone with the willingness to say 'Maybe' and then put effort into finding a way that will work. I admit I have not checked into the research for a while but when last I looked there was some progress being made.

More than any other reason that is why I support this main idea of this Thread. I do not think other Races want anything from us, except to find a way to overcome the inherent difficulties that will arise when we finally meet. It is not just a simple matter of language, there is the whole psychological aspect of the basic fear of the unknown that is so basic to humans in general. To be able to understand us to the point where another Race could come up with a plan to make contact safely would be a project that seems almost hopeless.

I am a human, and even I see how hard it will be to make real contact and not have it do real harm to the human race. I still look forward to the day when this happens, and I will be in the thick of it helping people to cope but the challenge is huge.

One of the great problems I see on the human side is that the people who are in positions to make decisions about contact are not exactly the sort who see things in the 'glass is half-full' style of thinking. Do not get me wrong I have a huge respect for people in the Military and Intelligence communities. My father dedicated his life to the Military and along the way provided a good life for me and the rest of my family.

But the mindset of these sorts of people is always to look for danger, that is their job. It has always made perfect sense why, starting back in '47, the decision to keep what we know about UFOs and ETs secret. I do not blame them for that I simply feel that the time has come to take the next step and open the doors on this information.

But one thing that has always been true, once you begin to keep a secret it is very, very difficult to change that. They start with the same assumption, 'We are not ready' and then look for reasons to disprove that conclusion. Looked at in that way it is unlikely that the secrets will ever just be given up, we will have to force the issue. Legally of course, but I do think that we will have to make it happen, it will not be given to us.

Or, some Alien Race will just have to land and get it over with.

I do not subscribe to the whole NWO concept. It is not a conspiracy it is a public position taken by many people, sorta contrary to the meaning of 'conspiracy'. But they do have one thing right, knowing for certain that we are not alone will have an impact on the people of Earth. I think after a period of some Chaos we will pull together in a way that has never before been accomplished. To me that will make whatever we have to go through to get there well worth the effort.


A.T
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