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Crusading americans and their "holy war"

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posted on Aug, 11 2005 @ 12:28 PM
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Originally posted by XphilesPhan

Originally posted by Esoteric Teacher

Christianity is just a combination of of judaism and some aspects of paganism.

Judaism is just a combination of arabic paganism and some persian paganism, and egyptian paganism transformed into a monotheistic belief.


Actually christianity is quite unique in it's beliefs, but for you to understand that would require you to do some delving into the new testament, something i doubt you would do.


something you doubt I would do?

Actually christianity is not that unique in it's beliefs. but, for you to understand that would require you to do some delving into everything that predates the new testament, something you obviously haven't done, or you would not have posted such an ignorant statement.

Easter? based on Esther the Goddess of Spring and fertility. Hence: Easter rabbit and the easter eggs. Esther was a Pagan goddess, and inadvertantly still worshipped and practiced through traditions of most Christians on Easter.

What of Mythros? A God worshipped throughout Persia and the middle east and recorded as such as early as 900 B.C.
- Mythros: born to a virgin mother.
- 1/2 God.
- Birth celebrated on December 25th.
- Arisen after death.
- miracle healer.
- Condemned by early Christian church which made official statement: "Mythros was the result of Satan and he travelled back through time to corrupt the true prophesies."

*** Esther predates christianity, but Esther is the reason Easter is celebrated when it is.
*** Mythros predates christianity, but Mythros is the reason Christmas is celebrated when it is. This arguement is supported by the new testement; sheep don't graze on certain plants as described in the new testement during December.

This is a mute arguement anyways.

What was Jesus's real name? What did people call him to his face, while he walked amongst us? Do you know?

What does Jesus mean? What language is it?

What does Christ mean? From what does the word derive?

What is the Egyptian Heiroglyph for "Saviour"?


Cristianity unique in its beliefs? Only if you don't compare it to any pagan belief systems that predate christianity.



[edit on 08/12/71 by Esoteric Teacher]




posted on Aug, 11 2005 @ 07:40 PM
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Originally posted by Thomas Crowne
You try and quote one analyst as if he speaks for Christianity or the U.S.? It, again, is quite apparent that you aren't very up on either Christianity or the U.S.
You seem to have the Holy War notion inside out.
"Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you" Jesus (Matthew 5:44)

"Against them make ready your strength to the utmost of your power, including steeds of war, to strike terror into the hearts of the enemies, of Allah and your enemies, and others besides, whom ye may not know, but whom Allah doth know."
Qur'an 8:60.

"Blessed are you when men revile and persecute you and utter all kinds of evil against you falsely on my account. Rejoice and be glad, for your reward is great in Heaven." Jesus (Matthew 5:11)

"And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter."
Qur'an 2:191

"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life." John 3:16

"Allah hath purchased of the believers their persons and their goods; for theirs in return is the garden of Paradise: They fight in His cause, and slay and are slain: A promise binding on Him in truth..." Qur'an 9:111

I see a bit of difference between the two religions. One religion doesn't back up creating a Holy War, while anothe seems to back up this sentiment -
"May Allah rip out his spine from his back and split his brains in two, and then put them both back, and then do it over and over again. Amen."

I by the way, am a "fundamentalist"; I believe in the word of God, undiluted. I am a "fanatic", if you will. A Christian who tries to understand his Father's word, knows the truth. I see, SS, you are also a true believer in your religion. Lying to an infidel is not really lying, it is merely strategic propaganda propagation.

Interesting that the word "Crusade" seems to be a thorn in your side, as you might be afraid that people know that the Crusades were responses to Islamic Jihads in the past.

[edit on 2-8-2005 by Thomas Crowne]
An Excellent Post,Sir!!!!!!!!! AAAAAAAAAAA+++++++++++



posted on Aug, 11 2005 @ 08:59 PM
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Originally posted by Esoteric Teacher

Easter? based on Esther the Goddess of Spring and fertility. Hence: Easter rabbit and the easter eggs. Esther was a Pagan goddess, and inadvertantly still worshipped and practiced through traditions of most Christians on Easter.

What of Mythros? A God worshipped throughout Persia and the middle east and recorded as such as early as 900 B.C.
- Mythros: born to a virgin mother.
- 1/2 God.
- Birth celebrated on December 25th.
- Arisen after death.
- miracle healer.
- Condemned by early Christian church which made official statement: "Mythros was the result of Satan and he travelled back through time to corrupt the true prophesies."

*** Esther predates christianity, but Esther is the reason Easter is celebrated when it is.
*** Mythros predates christianity, but Mythros is the reason Christmas is celebrated when it is. This arguement is supported by the new testement; sheep don't graze on certain plants as described in the new testement during December.


It would seem that this is a bit flawed. One thing to consider,





Isa 53:4 Surely he took up our infirmities and carried our sorrows, yet we considered him stricken by God, smitten by him, and afflicted.
Isa 53:5 But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed.
Isa 53:6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all.
Isa 53:7 He was oppressed and afflicted, yet he did not open his mouth; he was led like a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is silent, so he did not open his mouth.




So the claim is that Mithraic religion predates Christianity was it? Well the verse above predates that (if your claim is even true) and the Christ is visible in that verse to anyone.

ISAIAH (i zay' uh) Personal name meaning, "Yahweh saves." Prophet active in Judah about 740 to 701 B.C.

So now we have a bit more information than a comment,

Mithraism

Attempts to reconstruct the beliefs and practices of Mithraism face enormous challenges because of the scanty information that has survived. Proponents of the cult explained the world in terms of two ultimate and opposing principles, one good (depicted as light) and the other evil (darkness). Human beings must choose which side they will fight for; they are trapped in the conflict between light and darkness. Mithra came to be regarded as the most powerful mediator who could help humans ward off attacks from demonic forces.

The major reason why no Mithraic influence on first-century Christianity is possible is the timing: it's all wrong! The flowering of Mithraism occurred after the close of the New Testament canon, much too late for it to have influenced anything that appears in the New Testament.[9] Moreover, no monuments for the cult can be dated earlier than A.D. 90-100, and even this dating requires us to make some exceedingly generous assumptions. Chronological difficulties, then, make the possibility of a Mithraic influence on early Christianity extremely improbable. Certainly, there remains no credible evidence for such an influence.



The LINK




Or we can look here,

The ancient Roman religion known as the Mithraic mysteries has captivated the imaginations of scholars for generations. There are two reasons for this fascination. First, like the other ancient "mystery religions," such as the Eleusinian mysteries and the mysteries of Isis, Mithraism maintained strict secrecy about its teachings and practices, revealing them only to initiates. As a result, reconstructing the beliefs of the Mithraic devotees has posed an enormously intriguing challenge to scholarly ingenuity. Second, Mithraism arose in the Mediterranean world at exactly the same time as did Christianity, and thus the study of the cult holds the promise of shedding vital light on the cultural dynamics that led to the rise of Christianity.


LINK



So I hop this sheds a little light on this attempt to discredit the True Risen Christ...





EDIT: Even found some more on this mythros .....




B. Mithras


The Mythic Mysteries are very complex, and the only real similarities to Jesus are minute ones.. Most of these alleged similarities are suspect or unimportant. It is often claimed by skeptics on the Internet that "there is so much similarity" but I find very little. Mithra comes from Persia and is part of Zoroastrian myth, but this cult was transplanted to Rome near the end of the pre-Chrsitian era. Actually the figure of Mithra is very ancient. He began in the Hindu pantheon and is mentioned in the Vedas. He latter spread to Persia where he took the guise of a sheep protecting deity. But his guise as a shepard was rather minor. He is associated with the Sun as well. Yet most of our evidence about his cult (which apparently didn't exist in the Hindu or Persian forms) comes from Post-Pauline times. Mythic rituals were ment to bring about the salvation and transformation of initiates. In that sense it could be seen as similar to Christianity, but it was a religion and all religions aim at ultimate transformation. He's a total mythical figure he meets the sun who kneels before him, he slays a cosmic bull, nothing is real or human, no sayings, no teachings.



1) no Virginal Conception

Mithra was born of a rock, so unless the rock was a virgin rock, no virginal conception for him. (Marvin W. Meyer, ed. The Ancient Mysteries :a Sourcebook. San Francisco: Harper, 1987,, p. 201).



2) No crucifixion or resurrection.

There no story of Mithras death and no references to resurrection. The only similarity about him in this relation is that his shedding of the Bull's blood is said by H.G. Wells (Out Line of World History ) to be the prototype for Jesus sacrifice on the cross. But in reality the only similarity here is blood, and it wasn't even his own. It may even be borrowing form Christianity that made the shedding of blood important in the religion.



3) No Savior, no baptism, no Christmas

Moreover, one of the major sources comes from the second century AD and is found in inscriptions on a temple, "and you saved us after having shed the eternal blood." This sounds Christian, but being second century after Christ it could well be borrowed from Christianity ( Meyer, p 206). [This source, Meyer, is used by Kane as well, but it says nothing to back up his claims, and as will be seen latter, Meyer disparages the notion of conscious borrowing] (More about this ceremony on Page II)


"Mithra was the Persian god whose worship became popular among Roman soldiers (his cult was restricted to men) and was to prove a rival to Christianity in the late Roman Empire. Early Zoroastrian texts, such as the Mithra Yasht, cannot serve as the basis of a mystery of Mithra inasmuch as they present a god who watches over cattle and the sanctity of contracts. Later Mithraic evidence in the west is primarily iconographic; there are no long coherent texts".(Edwin Yamauchi, "Easter: "Myth, Hallucination, or History," Leadership University)


LINK

[edit on 11-8-2005 by edsinger]



posted on Aug, 11 2005 @ 10:04 PM
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I enjoyed your post, and reviewed the links you provided. When I can I'll U2U you and tell you the name of the book and co-authors names as well that provided this initial information to me, and for some reason, may have integrated incorrectly.

I learned much, from your post. I admit the information I was going off of may not have been that well informed/researched, or at the very worst I was reading peoples concepts that were created for a guided purpose.

However, the posiible falshoods of Mythras/Mythros being the reason for Christmas being celebrated when it is, is in my mind unanswered.

Why is Christmas celebrated when it is, if it is contradicting scriptures of the New Testament?

Admittingly, the first 3 websights I found supported your evidence perfectly. The fourth was consistant with what I had read in a couple of books, and here is the link, plus some pertinent (or delusional) information. I am willing to possibly believe the same Mythros/Mythras of 2,800 years ago and the one of Rome, may be seperate.??

Also, looking for a link .....
but, I seem to remember a archeological find from Iraq that supports the Mythras/Mythros belief system in existance around 900 B.C. But, disregard until I find where I got that information from.

Please, keep in mind I was only trying to make the arguement that there are links between "Paganism" and the dogma of current day Christians.

Here is the link & pertinent portions of it:

www.vetssweatshop.net...



A Comparison:

Most of the research into Mithraism, a religion with many parallels to Christianity, comes from two writers, Cumont and Ulansey with a variety of other writers input. Some Similarities Between Mithraism and Christianity are:
Virgin birth
Twelve followers
Killing and resurrection
Miracles
Birthdate on December 25
Morality
Mankind's savior
Known as the Light of the world

Have you ever wondered why December 25th was chosen to celebrate the birth of Christ? If the accounts in the Bible are correct, the time of Jesus birth would have been closer to mid-summer, for this is when shepherds would have been "tending their flocks in the field" and the new lambs were born. Strange enough there is an ancient pagan religion, Mithraism, which dates back over 2,800 years that also celebrated the birth of their "savior" on that date. Many elements in the story of Jesus' life and birth are either coincidental or borrowings
from earlier and contemporary pagan religions. The most obviously similar of these is Mithraism. Roman Mithraism was a mystery religion with sacrifice and initiation. Like other mystery cults, there's little recorded literary evidence. What we know comes mainly from Christian detractors and archaeological evidence from Mithraic temples, inscriptions, and artistic representations of the god and other aspects of the cult. In an EAWC (Exploring Ancient World Cultures) essay entitled Mithraism, Alison Griffith explains Cumont's theory of a Zoroastrian origin for the Roman Mithraist religion. While this theory is disputed, there was
a Mitra in the Hindu pantheon and a minor deity named Mithra among the Persians as well. Cumont came to believe the religion spread westward from Eastern Roman provinces. However, as Griffith explains, there is little evidence of a Zoroastrian Mithra cult and most evidence for Mithraic worship comes from the western portion of the empire from which Cumont correctly deduced that "Mithraism was most popular among legionaries (of all ranks), and the members of the more marginal social groups who were not Roman citizens: freedmen, slaves, and merchants from various provinces...." No women were allowed.


The Dawning of the Age of Aries

Ulansey says the main problem with basing Mithraism on a Zoroastrian cult is that there is no evidence that the Zoroastrians' Mithra practiced bull killing, the central aspect of Roman Mithraic iconography. An image of Mithras killing the bull holds pride of place in each mithraeum (cave-like temple for the worship of Mithras). Ulansey believes the images of Mithras slaying the bull are actually astronomical star maps. In support of this he points out that all the figures represented in the iconography have a place in the constellations (Taurus, Canis Minor, Hydra, Corvus, and Scorpio). He says that the other iconography and even the initiation ceremonies are consistently astronomical. Mithras' place as bull-slayer has cosmological significance because, if Ulansey is right, Mithraists attribute to their god the ability to shift the equinox from the constellation of Taurus to Aries: His killing of the bull symbolizes his supreme power: namely, the power to move the entire universe, which he had demonstrated by shifting the cosmic sphere in such a way that the spring equinox had moved out of Taurus the Bull.

For more research see:

Hinnells, John R., Studies in Mithraism: Papers associated with the Mithraic Panel organized on the occasion of the XVIth Congress of the International Association for the History of Religions.
Rome: L'Erma di Bretschneider Reviewed by Helen F. North. Twenty papers from the fourth international Mithraic congress held in Rome in 1990.

MITHRAISM --
A Historical Introduction:

For over three hundred years the rulers of the Roman Empire worshipped the god Mithras. Known throughout Europe and Asia by the names Mithra, Mitra, Meitros, Mihr, Mehr, and Meher, the veneration of this god began around 2800 years ago in Persia, where it was soon moved west and became imbedded with Babylonian doctrines. There is mention of Mithra or Mitra (et al) before 2800, but only as a minor diety and without much information. It appears to be after 2800 when Mithra is transformed and starts to play a major role among the gods. The faith spread east through India to China, and reached west throughout the entire length of the Roman frontier; from Scotland to the Sahara Desert, and from Spain to the Black Sea. Sites of Mithraic worship have been found in Britain, Italy, Romania, Germany, Hungary, Bulgaria, Turkey, Persia, Armenia, Syria, Israel, and North Africa. In Rome, more than a hundred inscriptions dedicated to Mithra have been found, in addition to 75 sculpture fragments, and a series of Mithraic temples situated in all parts of the city. One of the largest Mithraic temples built in Italy now lies under the present site of the Church of St. Clemente, near the Colosseum in Rome. The widespread popularity and appeal of Mithraism as the final and most refined form of pre-Christian paganism was discussed by the Greek historian Herodotus, the Greek biographer Plutarch, the neoplatonic philosopher Porphyry, the Gnostic heretic Origen, and St. Jerome the church Father. Mithraism was quite often noted by many historians for its many astonishing similarities to Christianity. The faithful referred to Mithra as "the Light of the World", symbol of truth, justice, and loyalty. He was mediator between heaven and earth and was a member of a Holy Trinity. According to Persian mythology, Mithras was born of a virgin given the title 'Mother of God'. The god remained celibate throughout his life, and valued self-control, renunciation and resistance to sensuality among his worshippers. Mithras represented a system of ethics in which brotherhood was encouraged in order to unify against the forces of evil. The worshippers of Mithras held strong beliefs in a celestial heaven and an infernal hell. They believed that the benevolent powers of the god would sympathize with their suffering and grant them the final justice of immortality and eternal salvation in the world to come. They looked forward to a final day of Judgment in which the dead would resurrect, and to a final conflict that would destroy the existing order of all things to bring about the triumph of light over darkness.

Purification through a ritualistic baptism was required of the faithful, who also took part in a ceremony in which they drank wine and ate bread to symbolize the body and blood of the god. Sundays were held sacred, and the birth of the god was celebrated annually on December the 25th. After the earthly mission of this god had been accomplished, he took part in a Last Supper with his companions before ascending to heaven, to forever protect the faithful from above.
However, it would be a vast oversimplification to suggest that Mithraism was the single forerunner of early Christianity. Aside from Christ and Mithras, there were plenty of other deities (such as Osiris, Tammuz, Adonis, Balder, Attis, and Dionysus) said to have died and resurrected. Many classical heroic figures, such as Hercules, Perseus, and Theseus, were said to have been born through the union of a virgin mother and divine father. Virtually every pagan religious practice and festivity that couldn't be suppressed or driven underground was eventually incorporated into the rites of Christianity as it spread across Europe and throughout the world.

The Persian Origins of Mithraism

In order to fully understand the religion of Mithraism it is necessary to look to its foundation in Persia, where originally a multitude of gods were worshipped. Amongst them were Ahura-Mazda, god of the skies, and Ahriman, god of darkness. In the sixth and seventh century B.C.E., a vast reformation of the Persian pantheon was undertaken by Zarathustra (known in Greek as Zoroaster), a prophet from the kingdom of Bactria. The stature of Ahura-Mazda was elevated to that of supreme god of goodness, whereas the god Ahriman became the ultimate embodiment of evil. In the same way that Ahkenaton, Heliogabalus, and Mohammed later initiated henotheistic cults from the worship of their respective deities, Zarathustra created a henotheistic dualism with the gods Ahura-Mazda and Ahriman. As a result of the Babylonian captivity of the Jews (597 B.C.E.) and their later emancipation by King Cyrus the Great of Persia (538 B.C.E.), Zoroastrian dualism was to influence the Jewish belief in the existence of HaShatan, the Adversary of the god YHVH, and later permit the evolution of the Christian Satan-Jehovah dichotomy. Persian religious dualism became the foundation of an ethical system that has lasted until this day. The reformation of Zarathustra retained the hundreds of Persian deities, assembling them into a complex hierarchical system of 'Immortals' and 'Adored Ones' under the rule of either Ahura- Mazda or Ahriman. Within this vast pantheon, Mithras gained the title of 'Judger of Souls'. He became the divine representative of Ahura-Mazda on earth, and was directed to protect the righteous from the demonic forces of Ahriman. Mithras was called omniscient, undeceivable, infallible, eternally

watchful, and never-resting. In the Avesta, the holy book of the religion of Zarathustra, Ahura-Mazda was said to have created Mithras in order to guarantee the authority of contracts and the keeping of promises. The name Mithras was, in fact, the Persian word for 'contract'. The divine duty of Mithras was to ensure general prosperity through good contractual relations between men. It was believed that misfortune would befall the entire land if a contract was ever broken.

Ahura-Mazda was said to have created Mithras to be as great and worthy as himself. He would fight the spirits of evil to protect the creations of Ahura-Mazda and cause even Ahriman to tremble. Mithras was seen as the protector of just souls from demons seeking to drag them down to Hell, and the guide of these souls to Paradise. As Lord of the Sky, he took the role of psychopomp, conducting the souls of the righteous dead to paradise. According to Persian traditions, the god Mithras was actually incarnated into the human form of the Saviour expected by Zarathustra. Mithras was born of Anahita, an immaculate virgin mother once worshipped as a fertility goddess before the hierarchical reformation. Anahita was said to have conceived the Saviour from the seed of Zarathustra preserved in the waters of Lake Hamun in the Persian province of Sistan. Mithra's ascension to heaven was said to have occurred in 208 B.C.E., 64 years after his birth. Parthian coins and documents bear a double date with this 64 year interval.

Mithras was 'The Great King' highly revered by the nobility and monarchs, who looked upon him as their special protector. A great number of the nobility took theophorous (god-bearing) names compounded with Mithras. The title of the god Mithras was used in the dynasties of Pontus, Parthia, Cappadocia, Armenia and Commagene by emperors with the name Mithradates. Mithradates VI, king of Pontus (northern Turkey) in 120-63 B.C.E. became famous for being the first monarch to practice immunization by taking poisons in gradually increased doses. The terms mithridatism and mithridate (a pharmacological elixir) were named after him. The Parthian princes of Armenia were all priests of Mithras, and an entire district of this land was dedicated to the Virgin Mother Anahita. Many Mithraeums, or Mithraic temples, were built in Armenia, which remained one of the laststrongholds of Mithraism. The largest near-eastern Mithraeum was built in western Persia at Kangavar, dedicated to 'Anahita, the Immaculate Virgin Mother of the Lord Mithras'. Other Mithraic temples were built in Khuzestan and in Central Iran near present-day Mahallat, where at the temple of Khorheh a few tall columns still stand. Excavations in Nisa, later renamed Mithradatkirt, have uncovered Mithraic mausoleums and shrines. Mithraic sanctuaries and mausoleums were built in the city of Hatra in upper Mesopotamia. West of Hatra at Dura Europos, Mithraeums were found with figures of Mithras on horseback. Persian Mithraism was more a collection of traditions and rites than a body of doctrines. However, once the Babylonians took the Mithraic rituals and mythology from the Persians, they thoroughly refined its theology. The Babylonian clergy assimilated Ahura-Mazda to the god Baal, Anahita to the goddess Ishtar, and Mithras to Shamash, their god of justice, victory and protection (and the sun god from whom King Hammurabi received his code of laws in the 18th century B.C.E.) As a result of the solar and astronomical associations of the Babylonians, Mithras later was referred to by Roman worshippers as 'Sol invictus', or the invincible sun. The sun itself was considered to be "the eye of Mithras". The Persian crown, from which all present day crowns are derived, was designed to represent the golden sun-disc sacred to Mithras. As a deity connected with the sun and its life-giving powers, Mithras was known as 'The Lord of the Wide Pastures' who was believed to cause the plants to spring forth from the ground. In the time of Cyrus and Darius the Great, the rulers of Persia received the first fruits of the fall harvest at the festival of Mehragan. At this time they wore their most brilliant clothing and drank wine. In the Persian calendar, the seventh month and the sixteenth day of each month were also dedicated to Mithras. The Babylonians also incorporated their belief in destiny into the Mithraic worship of Zurvan, the Persian god of infinite time and father of the gods Ahura-Mazda and Ahriman. They superimposed astrology, the use of the zodiac, and the deification of the four seasons onto the Persian rites of Mithraism. (Franz Cumont, French Mithraic researcher Les Mystères de Mithra, p.125 )




I comprehend and acknowledge there are different sources and different beliefs concerning Mythras/Mythros, etc.

I'm undecided about which are correct, maybe all, just different interpritations of the same information.

I am, however, convinced there are "Pagan" aspects incorporated into Christianity. Not that this makes Christianity less than what it is. And, this should in no way deter a christian from following Jesus's teachings. Just because we get it wrong once in awhile, doesn't mean our mentor had.

[edit on 08/12/71 by Esoteric Teacher]



posted on Aug, 11 2005 @ 10:18 PM
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Originally posted by Esoteric Teacher
I enjoyed your post, and reviewed the links you provided.

I am, however, convinced there are "Pagan" aspects incorporated into Christianity. Not that this makes Christianity less than what it is. And, this should in no way deter a christian from following Jesus's teachings. Just because we get it wrong once in awhile, doesn't mean our mentor had.



Thanks!

Oh I agree that some pagan beliefs were incorporated and I think that it happened in the time of Constantine. The Dec 25 date was chosen I think precisely because it was a pagan day, I think they wanted to 'overwrite' it.


The council of Nicea was a good example, I say the Creed quite often, but to read about how it came about is fascinating.

Why only certain books in the cannon? I really wonder about the Book of Enoch, heck it is Genesis Chapter 6 in much more detail.


Fascinating nonetheless,



posted on Aug, 11 2005 @ 11:15 PM
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edsinger,

Incidently, I am a Christian, who also incorporates other teachings (as long as I know they agree with what's within me). And, as long as they concur with the thought process.

Constantine and his "Bishops", and the council. What can I say. Dissapointing, but luckily the books still exist, although some in fragments. I figure if we think some were loss, then maybe we aren't suppose to have them right now. Perhaps they will turn up, just as the book of Enoch did. Some of the texts are interesting reading, and in the right frame of mind, make really good sense.

I agree with you, and did admire your post.

Mythras/Mythros in regards to historical proof and evidence, seems to be different things to different cultures ........

I wonder if we are still on the same path. Christianity seems to have many labels.

Perhaps intentionally.

At any rate, your post got me thinking. I love to think. Can't go wrong thinking, ....... well, .... unless I am thinking wrong.



posted on Aug, 12 2005 @ 11:34 AM
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Originally posted by Syrian Sister

MSNBC's Dietl Asserted In The Event of Nuclear Attack By Muslims, U.S. Should Threaten To Bomb Islam's "Most Religious Places"

Calling in to The Radio Factor, MSNBC analyst Bo Dietl told Fox News host and Radio Factor guest host John Gibson that, in the event of a nuclear attack by Muslim terrorists, the United States should declare "holy war" and threaten to "bomb the most religious places."

From the July 22 broadcast of Westwood One's The Radio Factor With Bill O'Reilly:


[link]http://mediamatters.org/items/200507260001[/link]


I know it's definetly not true about the majority christians, but some fundementalist christians won't stop terrorising and attacking people untill the whole world is christian. In the words of Dietly above "They have to wipe out everybody unless you become one of them". These are not real christians ofcource but more like demonic evangelists that where resurected from the last crusades.

But ofcource Wars are never really fought over religion but inorder for imperialist politicians like to make a profit. I think what really is going on here, is that it's the capitalists not the christians, who won't stop wiping everyone out untill you become one of them.

However some extremist "christians" do hold these dellusions of fighting a holy war, this is they're reason for supporting the war on iraq and afghanistan, ethnic cleansing of muslims, like in the last crusade. Bush Fuels them with comments like this.

"President George Bush declared a 'crusade' against Islamic terrorism."

[link]http://www.rosbaltnews.com/2002/10/12/50212.html[/link]

It's a shame these kind of people give a bad name to the rest of the christians, some of which are heroicly fighting along side the resistance in iraq.









while the christianity/islam debate is educational, this thread deals with the idea of the specific assertion the USA is involved in a crusade or holy war.

I'd like to point out the original quoted source is bo dietl. Who is Bo Dietl ?
www.beaudietl.com...

He is a retired cop who know has a privtae security co, and software. He appears regularly on Imus in the morning, and plays the tough guy, and days outrageous things to get attention. I think its fair to say he is not a part of USA military planning, nor does he represent the administration in any way

as far as the Bush comment, I read the article you linked to, and there are no direct quotes from Bush in the article, yet you frame it as a Bush comment. You even go as far as to put quotation marks around the words as if it is a quote. That's very misleading !!!!!!!!!

tsk tsk

SS, can you answer one question for me ?

Q: If I scanned the internet for sources that claim islam is conducting a holy war on christianity or america, how many legitimate sources do you think I can find ? If you can use Bo Dietl as a source, an indirect source, how many indirect sources can I find ?


please please please answer the question

thanks !

[edit on 12-8-2005 by syrinx high priest]

[edit on 12-8-2005 by syrinx high priest]



posted on Aug, 12 2005 @ 05:28 PM
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Hi everyone, Well took me awhile to read all the post for this topic, but alas I did it. I myself follow no specific religion. I do believe in a higher being of some kind. Though I tend more to go along with Native American beliefs. I believe that most of the problems in this world are because of religion and greed. I do believe if there was less greed and less people that wanted to spread their religious beliefs to others we would have less conflict and hate in this world. Let people believe what they want and don't try to convert them to your beliefs. All people in time will go with what they believe is right in their heart. You don't need to go to a church or a mosque to prove your faith. You only need to have faith in your heart and soul. Thats where it counts. Imho As far as religious fanatics go they come in all beliefs. They are the ones who can cause the most trouble and you may ask why? Because they live an fear and fear is a terrible thing it will eat your soul alive. Like the old saying goes you have have nothing to fear but fear itself. We can only have faith that one day mankind will not have to live in fear and be able to live with each other and not kill one another. One other thing, those that do kill for the reason that one does not believe as they do, I feel sorry for you,because what you have waiting for you on the other side won't be pretty. You may have to come back here and live with the crazy humans all over again.




posted on Aug, 13 2005 @ 01:00 AM
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Originally posted by syrinx high priest

SS, can you answer one question for me ?

Q: If I scanned the internet for sources that claim islam is conducting a holy war on christianity or america, how many legitimate sources do you think I can find ? If you can use Bo Dietl as a source, an indirect source, how many indirect sources can I find ?


please please please answer the question

thanks !


I also would like to see this answer, its a matter of scale wouldnt you say?

how about it SS?



posted on Aug, 13 2005 @ 01:38 AM
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Originally posted by edsinger

Originally posted by syrinx high priest

SS, can you answer one question for me ?

Q: If I scanned the internet for sources that claim islam is conducting a holy war on christianity or america, how many legitimate sources do you think I can find ? If you can use Bo Dietl as a source, an indirect source, how many indirect sources can I find ?


please please please answer the question

thanks !


I also would like to see this answer, its a matter of scale wouldnt you say?

how about it SS?


I think we all would.

Unfortunately I doubt we will. Any honest reply would destroy the anti-american propaganda that SS likes to push on this sight.



posted on Aug, 13 2005 @ 12:53 PM
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Originally posted by American Mad Man

I think we all would.

Unfortunately I doubt we will. Any honest reply would destroy the anti-american propaganda that SS likes to push on this sight.



Silence in this case speaks volumes.....



posted on Aug, 13 2005 @ 03:43 PM
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Originally posted by Passer By

Originally posted by edsinger

Originally posted by Syrian Sister

- The muslims, the Christians and the Jews, worship the same god.



OK very quickly here, Christians worship a Tri-une God, The Father, the Son, The Holy Spirit, All three are the same but differ in 'methods'. They are the same yet have distinct differences.

Islam denies the Christ, and therefore from a Christian perspective, deny God. Islam says that Christianity worships 3 Gods and yet they miss that we do not, we worship one God, and one that Islam does not.


I would disagree with this entirely. The trinity is an aspect, AFAIK, of the supreme being. It is part of the esoteric nature to make it easier for the comman man to understand. There can be no division in the ALL, for it is the ALL.

Once again, AFAIK< Islam didn't reject Jesus - in fact the honour him as a prophet of God - just not the son of God which he never claimed to be - only the son of man.

Muslim's, Christian's, Jewish, etc are all brothers - in fact all mankind are. If only we would allow ourself's to see it.



Actually, Jesus did say he was the son of God, and islam is mistaken in this belief. According to islam a prophet cannot lie, therefore Jesus was telling the truth.

John 9:
35 Jesus heard that they had cast him out; and when he had found him, he said unto him, Dost thou believe on the Son of God?

36 He answered and said, Who is he, Lord, that I might believe on him?

37 And Jesus said unto him, Thou hast both seen him, and it is he that talketh with thee.

38 And he said, Lord, I believe. And he worshipped him.

39 And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind.

40 And some of the Pharisees which were with him heard these words, and said unto him, Are we blind also?

41 Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.



posted on Aug, 13 2005 @ 08:32 PM
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Originally posted by edsinger

Originally posted by American Mad Man

I think we all would.

Unfortunately I doubt we will. Any honest reply would destroy the anti-american propaganda that SS likes to push on this sight.



Silence in this case speaks volumes.....


Me thinks the author of the thread is once again lost in the kitchen cooking things up.

Also just the title of the thread "Crusading americans and their "holy war"
was and is downright ludicrous since we have a seperation of church and state, therefore it is impossible for the american government to have a holy war.



posted on Aug, 14 2005 @ 10:54 AM
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Originally posted by shots

Also just the title of the thread "Crusading americans and their "holy war"
was and is downright ludicrous since we have a seperation of church and state, therefore it is impossible for the american government to have a holy war.


I don't see a seperation of church and state.
1) I have voted for presidential elections inside of churches.
2) Our presidents seem to all be of similar religious beliefs.
3) Our current president has used the word "crusade".
4) Our current president has used phrases with "God" in it in almost every speech.
5) Our volunteer military swears to "God" when enlisting.
6) The judiciary (1/3) the branch of government makes everyone that speeks at trials (except lawyers) swear to tell the truth with one hand on the bible.

etc, etc, etc .........

Besides,
if revenge was smoldering, and past offenses still being brought up, and people won't let it all just drop .... THEN:

Truth is there has been only 1 Jihad.
Truth is there has been only 1 Crusade.
Truth is there has been only 1 Holy War.

And with 7,000 years of recorded history devoid of 7 consecutive days of war, killing, and distruction ......

We continue on our path.
Not because of greed.
Not because of any other reason than:
Individuals' fears and hates, and those who manipulate their fears and hates to their advantages.



posted on Aug, 14 2005 @ 11:22 AM
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Originally posted by friday2112
Hi everyone, Well took me awhile to read all the post for this topic, but alas I did it. I myself follow no specific religion. I do believe in a higher being of some kind. Though I tend more to go along with Native American beliefs. I believe that most of the problems in this world are because of religion and greed. I do believe if there was less greed and less people that wanted to spread their religious beliefs to others we would have less conflict and hate in this world. Let people believe what they want and don't try to convert them to your beliefs. All people in time will go with what they believe is right in their heart. You don't need to go to a church or a mosque to prove your faith. You only need to have faith in your heart and soul. Thats where it counts. Imho As far as religious fanatics go they come in all beliefs. They are the ones who can cause the most trouble and you may ask why? Because they live an fear and fear is a terrible thing it will eat your soul alive. Like the old saying goes you have have nothing to fear but fear itself. We can only have faith that one day mankind will not have to live in fear and be able to live with each other and not kill one another. One other thing, those that do kill for the reason that one does not believe as they do, I feel sorry for you,because what you have waiting for you on the other side won't be pretty. You may have to come back here and live with the crazy humans all over again.

Well said.....best I've heard yet.



posted on Aug, 14 2005 @ 01:22 PM
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Originally posted by friday2112
Hi everyone, Well took me awhile to read all the post for this topic, but alas I did it. I myself follow no specific religion. I do believe in a higher being of some kind. Though I tend more to go along with Native American beliefs. I believe that most of the problems in this world are because of religion and greed. I do believe if there was less greed and less people that wanted to spread their religious beliefs to others we would have less conflict and hate in this world. Let people believe what they want and don't try to convert them to your beliefs. All people in time will go with what they believe is right in their heart. You don't need to go to a church or a mosque to prove your faith. You only need to have faith in your heart and soul. Thats where it counts. Imho As far as religious fanatics go they come in all beliefs. They are the ones who can cause the most trouble and you may ask why? Because they live an fear and fear is a terrible thing it will eat your soul alive. Like the old saying goes you have have nothing to fear but fear itself. We can only have faith that one day mankind will not have to live in fear and be able to live with each other and not kill one another. One other thing, those that do kill for the reason that one does not believe as they do, I feel sorry for you,because what you have waiting for you on the other side won't be pretty. You may have to come back here and live with the crazy humans all over again.



Best I've read too.



posted on Aug, 14 2005 @ 02:01 PM
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I completely agree with DigitalGrl. I know things seem out of hand, but these "Holy Wars" are nothing new. They just ended up in our back yard this time. It's not to say things aren't out of controll, but the media has a large roll in distorting the perception of the public.

My view on Christian and Muslim religion follows what DigitalGrl had to say. If you're Christian... fine... believe in your God... Live your life as best and moral as you can... if you can have intelligent safe and meaningful conversation without violence with someone who has a difference of opinioin... great! You stated your point and hopefully brought up some points that the other person can think about. It doesn't mean they have to convert. The same is true with muslims. I would be more than happy to sit and listen to them speak about their religion. In fact it interests me very much. All religions interest me and to be honest there are good and bad aspects in every religion.

My problem is with the extremist who believe that everyone should convert to their religion and (this is the big no-no part in my opinion, and I stress in my opinion) should die trying to get people to convert. Granted we are assuming that these "Holy Wars" are only about religion (which in most cases they are much more complicated). It seems to me the so called religious war with the United States goes much more deeper than religion and also encompases political relationships that the United States has or has had in the past.



[edit on 14-8-2005 by Kata]

[edit on 14-8-2005 by Kata]



posted on Aug, 14 2005 @ 02:45 PM
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Originally posted by Esoteric Teacher

I don't see a seperation of church and state.
1) I have voted for presidential elections inside of churches.
2) Our presidents seem to all be of similar religious beliefs.
3) Our current president has used the word "crusade".
4) Our current president has used phrases with "God" in it in almost every speech.
5) Our volunteer military swears to "God" when enlisting.
6) The judiciary (1/3) the branch of government makes everyone that speeks at trials (except lawyers) swear to tell the truth with one hand on the bible.



1. What was the name of that church and location? I have never heard of any elections being held in a "church".

5 & 6 are no longer "required", they do not have to use the word god nor do witnesses have to swear on a bible.



posted on Aug, 14 2005 @ 02:47 PM
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Just when did America, or come to think of it, any of the Coalition forces declare this a 'Holy War'?

Wasnt it christened as a 'Holy War' by the terrorists/insurgents?



[edit on 14-8-2005 by Bikereddie]



posted on Aug, 14 2005 @ 03:02 PM
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Cheney was the terrorist that attacked us so don't try and say the Muslims started it and that they deserve what they get. How can any person in their right mind think Mecca is a fine target. That is a religious institution and we are not at war with their religion are we?

So if a crazy Catholic person starts a war that means we should blow up the Vatican right? You call yourselves Christians and your religion says to be kind and love your enemy but all you do is spew hatred.

What will you say when you find out that it was Cheney after all, umm my bad. Looks like we dun gon killed 10 million people fur nutting. September 7th is the day Cheney will most likely attack the US again.




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