Crusading americans and their "holy war"

Well, unfortunately, warming hearts is kind of out of the question when all we see and hear is about how some poor kid got his head cut off in the name of "Allah" Don't you think a different tack is in order? I for one know my own personal feelings on this and as such can't speak for everyone, but I do know that the only thing these kinds of barbarous acts do to me is make me as angry as you(they) are.
Want peace, negotiate it, want war, hasten it.
Also understand that the people can only do as much as their elected officials are willing to do or are capable of doing. We have elections here to change the government when our dissatisfaction reaches a level of needing change.
Many would argue that our political process is a joke, that justice is for sale, that big business gets more consideration than the working class and this is probably all true. However, we have the ability through our electoral process to affect change and that is more than putting your "Faith" in a man ... NO man is worthy of Faith on a God scale as the Muslim clerics would deny I'm sure and as far as that goes, trust must be earned.
Any man can make claims of being a Religious leader and yet no man is God... God is within us all friend, and there is only one God.

Perhaps instead of taking credit for the beheading of some poor inncoent who has no control nor the means to affect a policy change, you might try setting them free to spread the word of what it is you really want. For all that matter, perhaps you could spell it out for us here so that at least we know?
I have heard the Palestinian argument and frankly, have a hard time buying into it. Isn't it the duty of a devout Muslim to look after his brother who is unable to? How many American tax dollars goes into the Palestinian cause?
Then there's the backing of Israel argument.
Are we to just look the other way while Israel gets eradicated? We try to keep peace, and even though we are perceived as the worlds policeman, perhaps the better descriptive would be the worlds humanitarians. All should have their basic freedoms and yet as a result of the growing hatred in the world, we too are now losing freedoms that were written in the constitution as inalienable rights. ALL are created equal. (And war, any war, is wrong. We are in this war because we seem like the only ones capable of resolving it and many have their doubts and feel we are going about it in the wrong way.) The wrong thing for the right reason... sounds so familiar doesn't it?
The backing of Israel that has Islam against us... do you even know why you are against the Jews in the first place? My take is that the entire world is set on retaliation mode and this won't solve the underlying problem... only by understanding your wants and needs can we provide them. Please explain?

I think it goes all the way back to the days of Abraham and personally I'd just like to see the world get over it. But then I'm biased, I want peace.

Originally posted by Syrian Sister
Jihad does not mean "holy war". It means "to struggle".

Really that is not what the majority of the most popular dictionaries around say. Kindly note the first defintion of the following

www.m-w.com...

dictionary.reference.com...

www.urbandictionary.com...

And if you still are having problems after reading those google jihad and you will get another several hundred saying the very same thing first]/b]

Just trying to keep with the ATS spirit of Denying Ignorance here

It hatred of the Jews that fuels Islam in these days, just as they sided with Hitler.


Pure unabated Hatred...........

Yes but why do they hate the Jews? Do they even know anymore? I think it goes back to Abraham. His wife was barren, he had Ishmael with his servant. When Isaac was born he was talked into sending Ishmael and his mother away even though in those days the first born was entitled to the inheritance. Its been a grudge match ever since and don't we all think its time to get over it? Jealousy aside, its time to learn to respect each other regardless of ancient history.
Nothing short of the Second Coming will ever resolve this, it had been written. So really, I guess I waste my time trying to resolve it.

WHOSE HOLY WAR IS THIS ?????


www.cnn.com...
Osama bin Laden's No. 2 man in al Qaeda is threatening more destruction in London and the United States. In a video, Ayman al-Zawahiri said British Prime Minister Tony Blair caused the destruction in London and "more will come, God willing." He also warned the U.S. that the 9/11 attacks "are nothing compared to what you will see next."

The chicken or the egg argument.
Nothing will resolve this until we all get along which isn't going to happen short of the Second Coming.

Trying to understand their will is my attempt at trying to resolve this through dialogue rather than bombs. I could just as easily state nuke them off the planet yet I know this is wrong. Inside each and everyone of those terrorists is a man that must be made to have a moral/social conscience.
The consequence of further attacks isn't going to win them favor in anybodies book, the USA isn't going to roll over and play possum , the gov already had contingency plans at the war table since we all knew that another attack has been in the works.

AlQ has there own agenda in all this and although we might never know what their ultimate goal is/was, we do know our response won't be as forgiving as a simple Gitmo. This time around, gloves are off.

Zawahiri should be listening to the voice of reasoning and not the voice of we hit you becasue we can.

We can hit a lot harder than we have been.

Sadly, Armageddon looms like a moth to a flame, it draws near.
So yeah AlQ, bring it on... we are ready to roll, Christians believe in God and know that this will hasten the Second Coming, the day when hatred gets denied. Is this war mongering? Maybe so, yet I don't see any solution without God coming to the bargaining table.

How strong is your Faith, or more apt, how deluded are you by the devil that is in us all? There is only one God, and that God is within us all. However you lean determines your fate. There is more to life than death.

Are there any Muslims here that understand? I really feel its time to come forward and get through to your brothers that war begets war, peace begets peace. As for our predicament with the shadow governement, we are aware and thats the first step. This is ignorance denied.

Those are Extreamist Christians like the Extreamist musliums, both are no better than each other.

Seems by reading your, whatever they are, words I suppose?, well you may be looking at becoming a serious attention grabber.

Is that your cause?

Dallas

Originally posted by ulshadow
Those are Extreamist Christians like the Extreamist musliums, both are no better than each other.

Oh Really?

You mean in modern times?


Lets see........where is genocide occuring? Bosnia comes to mind and it was the Christians doing the killing and the Christians who stopped the killing.

Sudan?


Well anyhow, last I checked no Christian sect or whatever is telling people to strap bombs on themselves and blow up as many Muslims as they can.

I wonder what would happen if Christianity started preaching this kind of hate? But then again, that is not Christianity at all, so why is Islam so silent?

Originally posted by edsinger
Oh Really?

You mean in modern times?


Lets see........where is genocide occuring? Bosnia comes to mind and it was the Christians doing the killing and the Christians who stopped the killing.

Sudan?


Well anyhow, last I checked no Christian sect or whatever is telling people to strap bombs on themselves and blow up as many Muslims as they can.

I wonder what would happen if Christianity started preaching this kind of hate? But then again, that is not Christianity at all, so why is Islam so silent?

No Religion is a religion of hate, it's the few that twist the religion a little bit to fit their agenda.

[edit on 4-8-2005 by ulshadow]

Hey ed,

i dont know about what church you went to but there is no liberalness at all where i go. as far as being liberal you may be thinking of the ELCA (evagelical lutheran church of america) that is the liberal one. like i said, i live in illinois as well, no liberalness by any means where i attend in fact we have people from the wisconsin synod come as guest speakers quite a bit.

Kind regards,
DigitalGirl

Originally posted by DigitalGrl
Hey ed,

i dont know about what church you went to but there is no liberalness at all where i go. as far as being liberal you may be thinking of the ELCA (evagelical lutheran church of america) that is the liberal one. like i said, i live in illinois as well, no liberalness by any means where i attend in fact we have people from the wisconsin synod come as guest speakers quite a bit.

Kind regards,
DigitalGirl

Glad to hear it but I had to leave......ever heard of Seminex? The MissSyn is split between those who hold to the Book of Concord and those that don't.


In some Missouri Syn churchs, homosexuality is becoming accepted, but alas not many at this point.

I do not know how familiar you are but back in the 50's, I think, A Missouri Synod could fellowship with both the WisSyn and the ELS, well no more. The Wisc and ELS broke the fellowship for many reasons but mainly because of the agenda that the Church took on, it was fast becoming of this world and not holding to the inerrancy of Scripture.


As for ELCA, well they have lesbian pastors.....no point in arguing that one.

Like I said, I was MissSyn my whole life until I moved to California, I could not stand it. Open communion was the last straw for me...

The WiscSnyd, is what I remember Lutherans being, The MissSyn and even the ELCA are my Christian brothers, but I draw the line when communing with those that support abortion and the non-sinfulness of homosexuality.


But I will say this, the Missouri Synod is fast becomming a liberal Church and the reason is $$$, they need to attract more members so they compromise. Over 50% of the congregations are left leaning and its growing daily. Look at the new President, Barry was even to left more me....

You are in Illinois though, along with Indiana and Iowa, the last holdouts.

Just ask your pastor if he is from the St.Louis Seminary or the Fort Wayne one and then you will have your answer....

PS. On of my best friends is a Missouri Syn pastor and I have 2 such uncles.

[edit on 4-8-2005 by edsinger]

wow,

see im 19 so i havent had many "years" under my belt. i just know that where i go only about 40 people attend the late service i go to, and we only have about 200 members. and the church has been around for 10 years. our pastor is a really humble man, not concerned with money at all it seems. he is from nebraska. not sure what seminary he went to. as far as the view on homosexuality, abortion, and the inerrancy of scripture, my church holds to the same docturine as what the bible teaches. my family however did attend a lutheran church for most of my life that was turning liberal quite fast and so we left and now go to where i attend now.

like i said, we have alot of wisconsin synod speakers come in alot. and my pastor used to preach in wisconsin, ohio, and then came here 10 years ago. hes only like 50 years old. but i really think it all depends on the church you go to anymore.

my grandmother was a lutheran deaconess for missori synod and she by no means is liberal. she holds to biblical docturine stronger than most people...that could be because shes old though lol. j/k but yea i know some lutheran churches that are liberal and some that arent. but the missori synod "docturine" in and of itself i dont think is liberal. maybe those that are in power are becoming like that however.

Kind Regards,
DigitalGirl

Originally posted by DigitalGrl
k but yea i know some lutheran churches that are liberal and some that arent. but the missori synod "docturine" in and of itself i dont think is liberal. maybe those that are in power are becoming like that however.

Kind Regards,
DigitalGirl

Cool,

Some are liberal and some are not, you are right. My friend got forced out of his Church because he would not have open communion. Some members thought that their Methodist family members should be able to commune on Easter.

You remember your Cathecism classes? Do you remember why no one should commune unless they come to the table with the right attitude or they drink to their own damnation?

The Missouri Synod doctrine has changed quite a bit in the last 25 years, seminex was the big blow to the Synod, it was in the early 70's and was best described as a 60's line of thinking.

There are some very conservative congregations in the MS left but they are fast becoming the minority.

My friend now has a good conservative congregation in Kansas and he couldn't be happier, they understand the Doctrines that Luther taught and is held to by the Book of Concord (the Confessional Lutherans)....something the ELCA lost long ago......and sadly the Miss Syn is racing towards.

If you are interested I have some thing you may be interested in...

I will post it here and this is not even from my Synod...


'The Difference Between the ELS and 'LCMS'


New' Missouri And 'Old' Missouri Should Divide


'Although there is one official Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod, there are really two Missouri synods existing
side by side. Within the church body one will find both the original Missouri Synod ('Old Missouri') and what
was termed ‘New Missouri’ says the Board of Evangelism of the Evangelical Lutheran Synod in a new
pamphlet titled we're glad you asked about ... The Difference Between the ELS and the LCMS' (p. 1).
The ELS board adds: 'If one were to judge by many of the writings of LCMS pastors, and by congregations
with LCMS pastors and laypeople, ‘Old’ Missouri seems to be a dwindling minority that has little impact on
the direction of the LCMS. ‘New’ Missouri appears to be the majority, at least when viewing the direction
LCMS seems to be heading.
'We Believe, Teach, and Confess, “a statement of faith of the Evangelical Lutheran Synod, is in The
Christian News Encyclopedia, Volume V, p. vi. The statement adopted at a convention of the ELS says that
the Bible condemns homosexuality and extramarital relations (fornication and adultery) as sin. It says that
the State has the right to administer capital punishment and wage just wars. It confesses: 'because abortion
results in the death fan unborn human being, we believe that it is never justified except in those rare and
tragic circum- stances when the continuation of the pregnancy would clearly threaten the life of the mother.
Abortion for any other reason is a great sin in the eyes of God.' The ELS statement condemns suicide and
euthanasia.
CN promoted the ELS's Bethany College in Mankato decades before it began experiencing
tremendous growth both in the number of students and new buildings.
The front page of the February 24, 1964, Lutheran (now Christian) News featured an essay by
Bethany College President B,W, Teigen and 'A College for Conservatives' by Bethany Professor Glenn W.
Reichwald. Bethany Professor Rudolph Honey helped the CN editor with An American Translation of the
Bible. Among the LCMS professors who taught at Bethany were John Klotz, Paul Zimmerman, Jacob Preus,
Alfred Fremder, and Oswald HoffiMann. Robert Preus was the first graduate of Bethany Lutheran Seminary.
For many years ELS pastors attended Concordia Seminary until the ELS began its own seminary.
Several of the children and grandchildren of Robert and Donna Preus are graduates of Bethany.
Some of the Cascione and Often children are also graduates of Bethany. Pastor Jack Cascione has written
articles for CN highly recommending Bethany. Parents who want their children to attend a solid Christcentered
Lutheran school, which has a fine academic, athletic, and music program, should write to Bethany
for a catalog. Bethany has scored near the top on some national academic tests. Few small colleges in the
nation will have finer facilities than Bethany. The ELS also owns the Marvin- Schwan camp, which has
excellent facilities, many acres and a large lake for students at Bethany to use for re- treats.
Bethany currently has more than 86 million dollars in a 100 million dollar fund-raising drive. It is now a
four-year college. In recent years its seminary has also acquired a fine building. For information contact
Bethany Lutheran College, 700 Luther Dr., Mankato, Minnesota 56001, (507) 388-6963, Office, 344-743 1,
Fax: 344-7376.
When the LCMS Concordia Seminary, St. Louis, re- fused to certify the editor of CN for the ministry,
after he exposed the liberal theology being taught and tolerated at the seminary, the ELS was one of the
smaller- conservative Lutheran church bodies he was encouraged to consider joining. The ELS is an
excellent orthodox church for which the editor and his wife, who attended Bethany, have the highest-regard.
However, the editor already had a call to serve Trinity Lutheran Church in New Haven. During the late 1950s
and the '60s he spoke throughout the nation, also in some ELS and WELS churches and schools during the
years Trinity was expelled from the LCMS. He knew there were thousands in the LCMS who were greatly
concerned about the theological liberalism being promoted at Concordia Seminary and elsewhere in the
LCMS. Joining a small orthodox Lutheran church body at that time would have made life easier but the
editor felt it would be throwing in the towel.
The editor had come into contact with thousands of faithful LCMS pastors and laymen who lived
many miles from any ELS church. He concluded that fighting for Old Missouri in the LCMS was still the best
way to reach and unite as many faithful Lutherans as possible all over the world. The editor was determined
to see to it that the liberals were removed from Concordia Seminary, St. Louis. When a survey in the 1966s
showed that approximately 25 percent of the LCMS clergy and 75 percent of the ALC-LCA (ULC) clergy
denied the inerrancy of the Bible, CN suggested that those in the LCMS who could not accept the LCMS’s
scriptural position on the inerrancy of the Bible join with the 75 percent in the LCA (ULC) and ALC who
denied the inerrancy of the Bible. He also proposed that the 25 percent in the LCA-A.LC who accepted the
inerrancy of the Bible work toward doctrinal agreement with the conservative LCMS majority with the
possibility of joining the LCMS. The editor has always been somewhat cautious of immediately forming
some new group, having seen how some of them end up constantly splitting over insignificant matters.
CN said that once the liberal element left the LCMS, the ELS and Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran
Synod and LCMS should resurrect the Synodical Conference. At one time the ELS, WELS and LCMS were
all in fellowship and members of the Synodical Conference.
The ELS is correct when it now observes that 'Old Missouri' is becoming a minority in the LCMS.
Renewal In Missouri (RIM), the organization of LCMS charismatics, claims to have the support of 600 LCMS
pastors. The last issue of CN named many liberals and charismatics on the LCMS roster.
Contrary to Rev. Paul McCain, LCWIS President A.L. Barry's assistant, who, like some other LCMS
presidential assistants in the past, bad mouths Christian News, the current weak LCMS administration has
done little about all the liberals on the LCMS clergy roster. Hardly anything is done about LCMS district
presidents who were big supporters of Seminex and now openly deny the scriptural position of the LCMS. It
seems the LCMS has few strong and courageous leaders who have what it takes to stand up to the liberals
on the LCMS Council of Presidents and elsewhere in the LCMS. In some ways the LCMS today is worse off
than it was before 'Old Missouri’ won the LCMS’s "Battle for the Bible during the 1970s and several hundred
liberal pastors, professors and mission executives left the LCMS.
Forty years ago the liberals had the courage to fight for their position. Today so many, particularly the
'Church Growthers' have a "who cares' attitude. 'You believe your way and I’II believe my way.' 'Deeds not
creeds is what counts "Numbers and money is the name of the game.' CN has often noted that the big
money the LCMS receives from the AAL, Lutheran Brotherhood, and other major sources is perpetuating a
tremendous growing bureaucracy. It is helping the bureaucrats stifle the efforts of the rapidly decreasing and
undermanned members of 'Old Missouri' as they battle the 'New Missouri.' The bureaucrats who want the
masses to believe that there are hardly any theological liberals on the LCMS clergy roster have the funds
and help to control the press.
The ELS pamphlet may be correct when it says that 'Old Missouri’ seems to be a dwindling minority
that has little impact on the direction of the LCMS.' Right now it has become virtually impossible for
conservatives in "Old Missouri' to reach very many within the LCMS. When they see all the resources the
bureaucracy in Missouri has to cover up for the liberals while it seeks to silence the conservatives who have
the courage to speak up, faithful pastors and laymen in 'Old Missouri' simply give up and join the ELS or
some other faithful Lutheran church body.
"Old Missouri' hopes that Rev. Daniel Preus will be elected First Vice-President of the LCMS and then
President. One of the daughters of Pastor and Mrs. Daniel. Preus is a graduate of Bethany College. LCMS
President Barry has also attended Bethany. "New Missouri" and 'Old Missouri' should peacefully divide.
"New Missouri' should join ELCA. If the pro-abortion and pro- homosexual ELCA is-too liberal for LCMS
charismatics, then the "conservative' charismatics should join the American Association of Lutheran
Churches which is open to the charismatics. There is no reason why there should be constant turmoil within
the LCMS between "Old' and "New' Missouri. There should be a peaceful division.
The ELS's pamphlet 'The Difference Between the ELS and LCMS' begins by quoting Psalm 133:1:
'Behold, how good and how pleasant it is for brethren to dwell together in unity'.
The Differences Between The ELS and the LCMS
Board for Evangelism Evangelical Lutheran Synod
"Behold, how good and how pleasant it is for brethren to dwell together in unity! (Psalm 133:1)
Beginning in 1857 the whole lump' (1 Corinthians dwell together in unity!' 5:6), the LCMS gradually (Psalm
133:1). Beginning in 1857, The ELS enjoyed fellowship with the Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod for almost
100 years. During that time we shared a common faith. However a change occurred within the LCMS that
created serious differences between us.
In 1935, the LCMS began compromising its theology. It desired to establish fellowship with the
doctrinally unsound American Lutheran Church. Just as “a little leaven leavens the whole lump” 1
Corinthians 5:6), the LCMS gradually drifted away from its solid foundation. It began to tolerate deviations
from sound Biblical teaching, something it had never done before. (Theodore Aaberg's A City Set on a Hill
gives a detailed account.) After patiently protesting for years, the ELS severed fellowship with the LCMS in
1955.
Since that time, the LCMS has continued its gradual drift away from confessional Lutheranism. Many
are confused by the difference between the synod's official position, which can appear to be soundly
Lutheran, and what is practiced in many congregations. Al- though there is one official LCMS, there are
really two Missouri Synods existing side by side. Within the same church body one will find both the original
Missouri Synod ('Old Missouri') and what could be termed 'New Missouri.'
If one were to judge by many of the writings of LCMS pastors, and by conversations with LCMS
pastors and laypeople, "Old Missouri' seems to be a dwindling minority that has little impact on the direction
of the LCMS. 'New Missouri' appears to be the majority, at least when viewing the direction the LCMS
seems to be headed. To its credit, 'Old Missouri' has never embraced nor tolerated any of the errors that
began in 1935. The ELS has much in common with that part of the LCMS.
On the other hand, 'New Missouri' has altered its beliefs in order to be more appealing to the world.
One encounters pastors and people in the "New Missouri' who, despite the official LCMS position, deny the
inerrancy of Scripture, ignore the Lutheran Confessions, practice open communion, support the ordination of
women, participate in unionistic services, and deny that Christ is the only way to heaven. "New Missouri'
bears little or no resemblance to confessional Lutheranism or the original LCMS. The ELS has little, if
anything, in common with 'New Missouri.'
Sadly, because the 'Old' and 'New' Missouri are united in one synod, we cannot enjoy fellowship with
that small part of the LCMS with which we may share a number of doctrinal concerns. That would constitute
unionism and would be contrary to the Word of God.
Like that first generation of Lutherans involved in the Reformation, many in the LCMS find themselves
in a difficult situation. They must choose between remaining loyal to a church even though it has drifted
away from sound biblical teaching, or making the necessary sacrifices to remain faithful to the Holy
Scriptures and the Lutheran Confessions.

isnt the ELS the evangelical lutheran synod....

that isnt LCMS...or are they one in the same?

maybe we should talk this over in u2u so we dont hijack the thread im going to be going to bed soon so if i dont respond tonight i will tomorrow.
thanks again.

Kind Regards,
DigitalGirrl

LCMS = Lutherna Church Missouri Synod (middle- leaning Left)
ELS = Evangelical Lutheran Synod (Right)
WELS = Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod (Right)


ELCA =Evangelical Lutheran Churchs of America (Left)

Originally posted by C0le

Originally posted by Syrian Sister
Islam has troops spread on American/Western soil so to them the MidEast ( Iraq, Iran, Mecca, etc. also) are legitimate targets”

I agree.

[edit on 2-8-2005 by C0le]

i never made this quote COle.

That was blood thorns quote

So don't put words in my mouth, if you want to defeat me in arguement, try to do it legitimately, and don't lower yourself to these petty tactics.

keyboard

Allah is just the translation for god in arabic. Christian arabs say allah too.

Infact, the arabic bible existed before the english bible, and in the arabic bible it said allah not god.

So christians have been saying allah, long before the word god has even existed.

you need to understand that. The god of mosses, the god of jesus, and the god of muhamad are all the same god.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I would like those who are christian, and who support a "crusade/holy war against islam" To post , I . And those against such a crusade to post NAY.

If you haven't already shown exactly what your position is, now is the time to do so. Be brave, and be frank.

This will give us a small sample space of what the ratio is to real christians, and to "christians" who would kill people of other faiths "in the name of god".

[edit on 5-8-2005 by Syrian Sister]

Religions were useful back in the day, basicly to get people more organized, because they had something in common, their beliefs.
Now it seems religion is used mostly for exploitation (it's been used in the past also, ex. the catholic church and countless others), take a good look at Osama and Bush.
Religious people out there are easy targets for exploitation, "enlightened" people also have beliefs, however not always religious, but political beliefs, which can also be easily exploited. People should learn to think for themselves, then all the politicians, religious leaders and other greedy powermongers would at least have a run for their money.

Maybe a bit offtopic, but I just had to say it, couldn't resist

Originally posted by Syrian Sister

I would like those who are christian, and who support a "crusade/holy war against islam" To post , I . And those against such a crusade to post NAY.

takes two to tangle, dear. If you want my personal opinion here, just like England, Germany, Italy, Japan, France, the US and many countries within the middle east had their part in the last world war, well, there were many different parties that played their part in the original crusades.....for every christian knight there was a follower of islam to willingly exchange blows with. The price of not being able to live peacably together in our world is to live in constant struggle. and it is only the horrible death of innocents I think that even gives mankind the slightest inclination to even attempt to live peacably!!

we didn't start a holy war or crusade!!! unless of course, our gov't is responsible for those planes going into our buildings. Which I tend not to believe.....it was too costly (financially). are you denying that before those towers fell there were many, many mosques spread throughout the world, that were preaching this "hate america" message, encouraging their followers to hit us anyway they could? there were no training camps whatsoever anywhere in the world that were at least partially funded by these "respected" religous groups? There were no fatwas issuing decress telling the followers that it was their religous duty to stage jihad against americans? there really wasn't that many people in america THEN telling the masses they held a duty to God to kill the Moslems! It was that SMALL group of Islamics that turned this conflict into a holy war! Bush just named it!

My opinion is that we are seeing what the Bible calls the antichrist. the spirit has always been inbedded in those three judeo-christian religions, and well, it occasionally gains enough strength to move us in a way that is really very much against all that is Godly, all the while using God as justification......Anti-Christ!! It has gained it's followers, at least here in the US, and probably also in the arab nations and Isreal, with promises of power, and wealth. the true battle lines are not the one that we are being led to see! there isn't that much difference between osama bin laden, bush, or some of the clerics in both religions......they are all working more within this anti-christian spirit than they are with God.....and they are invoking God's name as a justification....that I will always be against...weather you are talking about the taliban killing women for wearing noisy shoes, or killing men for shaving their beards, or in this country, their attempt to bring women back into that submissive role, or degrade the rights that the workers have achieved in the past. Or if you are talking about crusades and holy wars!

but, if you think for one minute that I want this country to sit here and take pop shots from a bunch of religous fruitcakes...don't care what religion they follow......and not to do anything simply because the perpetrators are too chicken to put on a uniform and actually have a war like one should be fought....well, sorry, no can do. most of the death in all the wars were innocent non combatants!!!

personally, the minute 9/11 happened, I would have pulled all our troops out of all middle eastern countries Isreal included...banned trade with any of them...what the heck, I 'd give canada and the other oil producing countries here in the americas some really nice deals just to buy all their surplus oil!! and, anything else of necessity that we get from that region. and well, all the foriegn aid that is sent overseas would cease to flow! hey, if they want us out of the picture, let's show them what life would be like without us there!! one thing is for sure...it sure the heck would have been alot cheaper that way! and the middle east would be free to make what ever kind of heaven or hell they desired to do...just as long as they leave us alone.

It is simply a war, there is nothing holy about it. The US did not go to Iraq to spread Christianity. Why the US went will be debated forever but to pass out bibles was actually not in the plan this time.