Italy bans Islamic burqas

That's right!!! How the hell are we humans meant to know what them darn terrorists is upto when they cover their darned heads up??

I say the burga ban is not enough!

I say we ban all baggy clothing and the population should have to wear form fitting spandex uniforms with no pockets. If you want to carry things, you must carry them in a clear plastic bag which is presented to the police for inspection at anytime, anyplace, anywhere.

That'll show them terrorists who's the boss!
Lets see them take our freedom of dress now!

The western world is always going on and on about?

heh, join the club of france and holland itally. The NWO is real, and this is george orwell's 1984.

Why stop there memphis ?

How about we put a ban on clothes all together?

Pretty soon we'll need "papersss mein freund, to show that ve have nosink to hide". Oh wait, that's already happened.

[edit on 1-8-2005 by Syrian Sister]

what freedom of religion do westerns have when they visit Islamic Countries ?? none... the vests over the hair, shoulders and face are forced on to western women? is freedom of religion only valid when it comes to Islamic religion ??? lol...juts like freedom of speech or opinion is only valid if its a "liberal" opinion ??

... and by the way i know what i am talking about when i speek of head covers beeing forced on western women, im not a blind colledge kid that never left his/her home country and can easily be fooled with semi- truthfull statements.

If people dont like other countries laws DON'T GO there, i learned the hard way.

People's face is a form of identification, therefore it should not be covered..thats like saying "i cant show you my ID because its against my religion"

and one final question :

Where exactly in the Koran (or however you want to spelled it ), does it say women have to be covered from head to toe, so that noone see their faces??

Dress standards are prescribed in the Qu'ran (although some would treat them as "guidelines") and the more distant interpretations of what Mohammed said.

These are interesting:

www.jannah.org...

www.answers.com...



[edit on 1-8-2005 by MaskedAvatar]

Originally posted by WyrdeOne
This is pretty foolish... Just because you're over forty doesn't make you superior, in fact, it makes you demonstrably inferior.

We young'uns have fewer dead brain cells cluttering up the cranium.

Child, you have demonstrated a strong favoritism toward 'Ageism', you should correct your thoughts lest others younger than you note your position and exercise it against you.

Originally posted by MaskedAvatar
Dress standards are prescribed in the Qu'ran (although some would treat them as "guidelines") and the more distant interpretations of what Mohammed said.

These are interesting:

www.jannah.org...

www.answers.com...

From the above link:

The Hijab is viewed as a liberation for women, in that the covering brings about "an aura of respect" (Takim, 22) and women are recognized as individuals who are admired for their mind and personality, "not for their beauty or lack of it" ( Mustafa ) and not as sex objects.

lol

So basically, the men aren't to be trusted? So sad, that the women have to cover every inch of their body because the male mind is so 'touchy' (pun intended), and immature.

Child, you have demonstrated a strong favoritism toward 'Ageism', you should correct your thoughts lest others younger than you note your position and exercise it against you.

Where's your admonition for Maximus? Ageism my ass, I didn't even mention the iceberg! That was textbook: lunge, parry, riposte.

Bare Naked Fencers do it with words also.

Edit: I should point out, to be fair, that drug abusers are demonstrably inferior to clean livin' old people, in terms of brain function. Nothing against drug users, it's just a fact. Children with undeveloped brains are inferior, in that sense, to adults, but that doesn't reduce a child's value to society. It's the same with the elderly.

Notice I qualified my statement by limiting it to brain function. Had I said something to the effect of old people are worthless, I would understand and deserve your criticism.


[edit on 2-8-2005 by WyrdeOne]

Originally posted by BaastetNoir
and one final question :

Where exactly in the Koran (or however you want to spelled it ), does it say women have to be covered from head to toe, so that noone see their faces??

I am pretty sure that these rules where adopted only recently and are not part of the Koran but something else...... I shall google....

Ahhh...here we go...taken from the good old Wikipedia:

Hijab is the word used in the Islamic context for the practice of dressing modestly, which all practicing Muslims past the age of puberty are instructed to do in their holy book, the Qur'an.

No precise dress code for men or women is set out in the Qur'an. However, the Qur'an gives some guidelines as to how Muslim women should behave. Verse 33:59 mentions that believers "draw their cloaks close round them (when they go out)"and (024.031) "And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; that they should not display their beauty and ornaments except what (must ordinarily) appear thereof; that they should draw their veils over their bosoms and not display their beauty except to their husbands, their fathers, their husband's fathers, their sons, their husbands' sons, their brothers or their brothers' sons, or their sisters' sons, or their women, or the (female) slaves whom their right hands possess, or old male servants who lack vigour, or small children who have no sense of the shame of sex; and that they should not strike their feet in order to draw attention to their hidden ornaments. And O ye Believers! turn ye all together towards God, that ye may attain Bliss."

And:

Some scholars say that men should cover from at least the navel to the knees; however, all the reports suggesting this are weak in its chain of transmission and thus inauthentic. Furthermore, there are authenic reports indicating that the Prophet Muhammad wore clothing that uncovered his thigh whilst riding his camel. Generally drawing sexual attention is only allowed between a married couple—where it is highly encouraged—and they do not need to cover any part of their body in each other's presence (other Mahrams should hide at least their sexual organs from each other).

And finally:

The way in which Muslims who practice hijab interpret the stated rules varies from country to country and even individual to individual. Specific cultural interpretations/practices include Purdah which is an Urdu/Persian word, and Chadar aur Chaardhiwaaree ("the sheet and the four walls", supposedly the protectors of women), and so on. Coverings associated with these practices include the Burqah, Chador, Khimar, Niqab, etc

So, you see, the Burkha is not prescribed in the Koran and the Koran rules apply to men also and those "rules" that are given to woman are not as extreme as practived in some countries today and are merely guidelines

In fact, you could argue that the burkha et al are cultural items and nothing to do with Islam at all.

Personally, I think they look stupid and are lessening their own value as women if they hide themselves "so men won't be distracted by their beauty"................

Wikipedia Source

From reading the original post, it appears that the ban was already in effect:

The counter-terrorism package, passed by Italy's parliament yesterday, doubles the existing penalty for wearing a burqa or chador -- traditional robes worn by Muslim women to cover their faces -- or full-faced helmets or balaclavas in public.

Aside from hiding one's identity, it is easier to conceal a bomb vest under a burka. Hiding of a firearm shouldn't be such a concern since there are so many people packing these days, legally or otherwise.

signed,
Gramatically-challenged j

I think this is a correct move and long-overdue.

Difficult to ban headscarves due to Nuns etc but covering the face is not acceptable:

1. If I did I'd be arrested as a potentail robber / mugger etc

2. I don't believe it's consensual - it's enforced on women

3. It sends a clear signal that the country is not an islamic Sharia state - saves any confusion

4. Many UK residents (and presumably Italians?) find it offensive

Think it's a move the UK should look at very carefully

Originally posted by stumason
So, you see, the Burkha is not prescribed in the Koran and the Koran rules apply to men also and those "rules" that are given to woman are not as extreme as practived in some countries today and are merely guidelines

In fact, you could argue that the burkha et al are cultural items and nothing to do with Islam at all.

Personally, I think they look stupid and are lessening their own value as women if they hide themselves "so men won't be distracted by their beauty".........

.......

Wikipedia Source

so basically this "covering" is not based in their religion... just an excuse from Over-sexualized guys with to much time on their hands ...

another good reason to ban it ...

like i said a guy could be hidding under those "burkhas".

Our face is one of the best ways of identification therefore it cant be cobverd, not even under the excuses of "religious beliefs"

Originally posted by LA_Maximus

Your spelling and grammer needs some work, but your message is 100% correct.

Maximu§

Not to be obnoxious, Maximus, but...

Grammer is a town in Indiana.

1 entry found for grammer.
grammer, IN
Zip code(s): 47236

Dictionary.com

I think you were thinking of "grammar." The only reason I point this out is that, as a professional writer and editor, I am constantly finding mistakes on ATS; however, because the setup here is not particularly conducive to good proofreading/copyediting, I tend to just let it go. Furthermore, I often have errors in my posts; again, simply due to the difficult posting setup.

Lord knows, I've wanted to jump down some throats for the egregious misuse of my language in these threads; but, it usually will serve no purpose other than to inflame members and sidetrack discussion. In the future, I would recommend that all of us try to be more lenient in terms of pointing out spelling and grammatical errors. We are all guilty at times; even those of us who do this for a living.

Ok people, were are getting nit picky here.

It's clear that Burqas are being banned for one clear reason.

The terrorist attacks in Europe over the past year (Spain and England) were pulled off by Islamic Separatists of the Muslum faith.

Islamic women of the Muslum faith use Burqas as part of religon forced dress code.

As a way of facial recognition by law enforcement and security officals, you have to be able to see a person facial features.

Facial features as well all know will tell you what a person is feeling, good or bad, happy or sad, or if someone telling a lie or the truth.

And if someone is wearing a burqas and you can not see their face, how in the world can tell what her intention is.

And as fas as I know there is no religon that requires a person to wear a full face motorcycle helmet as a part of the dress code for leaving the home.

If a law enforcement or security officer tells you to remove your helmet, you had better do it or you might get shot.

Your fears are right, this is stereo typing of individuals who wear burqas, these people are Muslums and it's Islamic separatists who are going around killing people with Homicide bombers, in Europe, Africa, Asia and the Middle East.

If it were Catholic homicide bombers going around killing people, beleive me all nuns would be made to remove habits for facial recognition, but sadly it's not.

This is the world that we live in now, you have to give a women wearing a burqas a long look wondering what is her intention. Because you can not see her face. Is she holding a baby or a belt bomb under her robe.

As to the topic, this has been an issue in the States recently too. I seem to recall something about a woman suing over wearing a face-covering garb for a driver's license photo. It turns out it wasn't quite the case, but if you are interested, check it out.

At the time this eRumor started circulating, it was in reference to the case of a 41-year-old women who had applied for an ID card, not a drivers license. According to the Florida Department of Highway Safety and Motor Vehicles, Najat Tamim-Muhammad did not want to violate her Moslem belief and uncover her face in public. Florida officials told her, however, that the ID card needed to show enough of her face to confirm her identity. A compromise was worked out that satisfied her need to respect the rules of her faith and the state of Florida's need for enough of her face to be seen.

Link

In Sultaana Freeman's case, she was required to lift her veil for a driver's license photo.

An Orlando, Florida circuit court judge ruled that Sultaana Freeman's right to free exercise of religion would not be burdened by showing her face on the license. The ruling followed three days of testimony.

Link

Not exactly the same, but interesting nevertheless.

Curious to see the reaction by the Italian press.

The islam order to wear the Hajab but the Burqas is not compalsory.

The Burqas is part of the tradition her in the middle east the is orginated from the Persian even before islam.

the Burqas is Badue tradtion. It said that if a women who wears its means that she is married or not virgin something like that.

Originally posted by BaastetNoir
what freedom of religion do westerns have when they visit Islamic Countries ?? none...

Is that why there where christians living in Syria, Iraq, Lebanon , palestine with no event for ever a thousand years, with complete freedom of religion?

Well, is it?
-------------------------------
It is true that he burkha is more cultural than religious and it's got nothing to do with being married or whatever, it's to do with the climate of the gulf states, that's why in the cold climate of Syria, such a tradition never occured. But dressing modestly is IN THE KORAN, for both men and women!

"The islam order to wear the Hajab"

this is a completely incorrect statement, you are not ordered to wear the hijab in islam at all. It's a choice, and some would argue it's not in the koran. THat's why i choose not to wear it. But if one day i change my mind, do you think i'll let anyone or any law stop me?

And if someone wants to wear a burkha, wether it's because of their religion or their culture . And if want to wear a mexican hat tomorow, even if you ban them, i will wear them!

What part of freedom don't some of you understand?

What's next, your going to burn down mosques and tear the hijab off of women? OH wait, That's already happened! Those things aren't put into law just yet, but i don't think we will wait long to see you do that.

[edit on 4-8-2005 by Syrian Sister]

Well we banned French Fries so I suppose anything is possible. No just joking.

Seriously, I agree this doesn't seem to be a totally productive solution ... but the concern is valid, and I commend them for attempting to do SOMETHING about the problem even if it's maybe a bit misguided.

Obviously the problem is how to stop a suicide bomber. I heard a radio talk show interview with an Israeli who said that the thing that they do is to go after bomb-makers ... they have paid informants that get the dirt on who knows how to build the bombs that they sell to the suicide bombers. This sort of strategy is going to be much more productive ... how do you hide a bomb under a scarf? I could imagine hiding one in a shoe or briefcase, or down your pants, on a belt.

But the Europeans in their own european ways are trying to tighten their security in a preventative measure. I've heard that reporters in europe can be jailed for writing articles that "incite hatred" even if it's unintentional.

Originally posted by BaastetNoir
what freedom of religion do westerns have when they visit Islamic Countries ??

What western countries are ruled by religious edict?
We have no reason to enforce a dress standard because we don't have a system that is run by a religious ideology. When you visit countries that are run that way, you conform to their laws the same way you live under the laws of the western world.

Every country is entitled to their own systems of law but that doesn't mean the west has to enforce profiling laws simply to enhance the level of threat and paranioa amongst the public.

How many terrorist attacks have occured in the west by people wearing Burqas VS people wearing jeans and a shirt just like everyone else?

This is all utter crap made to influence and blind a public. Once they have fully profiled Muslims and extinguished any kind of ability to look and act like a Muslim and a bomb goes off anyway, what will they do?

They'll come for the next in line, eventually affecting you.

Already in Australia we have ASIO (our intelligence agency) saying they KNOW there are between 45 - 60 al-qaeda trained people in Melbourne and Sydney. So what did they say on the nightly news?
If you see someone looking suspicious, especially a Muslim looking person, call ASIO and report it!
Well here's a no brainer ASIO, if you know of these peoples existence and where they have trained and where they live, why the hell is it up to the public to call you and profile someone on a suspicion? Why aren't you out there doing something?

And then we have the Police who tip off the media when ever they are going to raid a house. They make sure the media is there to capture it on TV. Afterwards, whether they find something or not, take someone away or not, the people who have been raided and who now have 30 media cameras and reporters knocking on their door and following them around are NOT allowed to speak to ANYONE expect their lawyer or else they'll be put in prison for 5 years. Meanwhile, the media flashes their faces, their houses, their names all over the TV and newspapers as 'suspect terrorists', hanging INNOCENT, FREE people in the media before any kind of trial or charges are placed on them.

When will people learn they are being played? This is a very scripted thing that is happening and Muslim people are the scapegoat, the new Jew.

I've never been as dissapointed in the human race during my life as i am now.

The counter-terrorism package, passed by Italy's parliament yesterday, doubles the existing penalty for wearing a burqa or chador -- traditional robes worn by Muslim women to cover their faces -- or full-faced helmets or balaclavas in public.

They've doubled the existing penalty for covering your face in public. I think this law was originally passed by Mussolini in 1931 so unless any of the burqa wearing women moved to italy before 1931 they really don't have much to complain about.

As Baastetnoir said:

f people dont like other countries laws DON'T GO there

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