Did Jesus Even Rise From The Dead?

Originally posted by spamandham
If he were simply analyzing the story I would agree, but he is obviously searching for truth and is willing to step outside the doctrinal box to find it. To pander to the false assumptions is a disservice. I suspect if he were a Muslim talking about whether Mohamed really preached to the Jinn, you would have no problem pointing out that Jinn are mythical creatures.

Jesus can't have risen from the dead if he is not historical, so addressing that point directly answers the question "Did Jesus even Rise From The Dead".

I see your point. But I would still point out, on a theoretical assumtion, why I felt that Mohamed could or could not have precahed to the Jinn before I pointed to my sources on why I did not believe the Jinn existed.

While there is adequate information to prove that the Jinn are mythical creatures, we are not so lucky in Jesus' case. Christians can offer no empirical proof of His existance. Non Christians can offer no empirical proof of His non-existance.

As I said in an earlier post, one man's myth is another man's salvation.

Originally posted by darkelf
While there is adequate information to prove that the Jinn are mythical creatures, we are not so lucky in Jesus' case. Christians can offer no empirical proof of His existance. Non Christians can offer no empirical proof of His non-existance.

It probably can never be proven that the Jesus myth has no historical figure(s) at its root, but it can be sufficiently demonstrated that the Jesus of the Bible is myth, and since there is no traceability to a historical figure, it makes no sense to speak of such a person, as nothing whatsoever can be said about him.

Little about Bible-Jesus is unique. The stories parallel pre-existing stories, the teachings parallel pre-existing teachings, the symbolism parallels pre-existing symbolism. Even the name "Jesus" (YHWH Saves) implies a mythical origin, as does the timing of his arrival.

Further (according to Christians anyway), Jesus fulfilled hundreds of prophecies, and these are alluded to in the New Testament, so that was the intent of the writers and not just a later extrapolation.

But this is a dual edged sword, as it polarizes the question of his existence. Each of these pre-figurations is either further evidence of his deity, or further evidence that he was an invented figure.

If he was not actually who the Bible says he was, then the exact same evidence Christians point to as evidence that he was the Messiah condemns him as a fabrication. So, is there anything we can pin down about the stories that proves that Jesus was not who the Bible says he was?

Yes. There was no town of Nazareth in the first century, and there was no census of Herod. There are other internal contradictions and geographical errors, but these two are solid and backed by tons of historical and archaeological evidence. Since the writers got these fundamental facts wrong, all the pre-figuration evidence turns on them and proves they were recording composite mythology. Note that I didn't say the writers themselves invented it, I said they recorded it. The writers no doubt believed the mythology, as it's clear there were already Christian sects before any of the New Testament was recorded. This fact alone proves Jesus could not have been crucified in ~30 CE, as it wouldn't leave enough time for significant divergence in the churches from that point until Paul's writings begin (~50 CE).

It'll be Sunday before I can get to a computer again, so you guys get to bash me freely until then.

Originally posted by Seekerof
Perhaps the mere factoid that unlike the Sumerians, over 2 billion people believe that this individual arose from the dead.
You are aware that the very cornerstone of the foundation of Christianity rests solely on the resurrection of this individual. How interesting that just a few men could turn this so-called Sumerian myth into the worlds largest religion and religious belief. Interesting, no?

[edit on 2-8-2005 by Seekerof]

The fact that it is a popular religion does not make it factual. The only reason why the Western world practices christianity is because the Roman Empire adopted it. Since the Roman empire ruled most of Europe, when it dissolved, the people kept theyre newly aquired religious beliefs. Combine that with the Holy Roman empire, which helped keep christianity alive, it founded itself deep into the people of Europe. If the roman senate choose another religion instead of Christianity, we would all be debating whether Mithra existed. So I really don't see your point in pointing out its one of the worlds largest religions, as popularity really doesn't equal factuality.

I will leave you with only one thought to ponder, one statement. First let me say this. James was the actual brother of Jesus, and he was stoned to death for preaching about Jesus and his word. This was after Jesus ascended into heaven.

Knowing that you would be persecuted and put to death, would you preach your brothers word if you didn't know it to be true for a fact?

First of all, James wasn't his real brother, he had no brothers, as the myth says, but he declared him like a brother. Even then, we have people in the modern world who REALLY believe something, even though it definitely isn't real, its the thing with most cults, like the halle-bopp thing, they really believed in it, enough to die for it. That doesn't make it factual though.

really?


maybe you should read through this:

en.wikipedia.org...

I'm sorry, I got the lineage of two fictional characters wrong, my bad.

Originally posted by spamandham

In the Bible, Jesus was from an ahistorical city, born in Bethlehem as the result of an ahistorical census, and performed mythical works that no-one recorded outside the circle of believers. Nonnne fo the New Testament writers knew him personally, but rather, were simply recording what had been passed down to them. Even Paul admits that he isn't sure whether his experience was a dream or not. The simplest conclusion is that he is a fictional character.

Must have been one hell of a dream! I suppose the Romans had the same dream of the Trial of Jesus? And then the subsequent fall of Rome, and rise of the Holy Roman Emperor, and the Crusades, they were all dreams also?

Jesus! Ooop.

Let look at the historical views of the City of Jerusalem during the time AD.

During Jesus times from birth to death is not written records of recollections but the ones that the bible gives from the Apostles.

We have to remember that the accounts of Jesus death and crucifixion came later after Jesus death.

Jerusalem was destroyed by that time, and many pagan temples were erected in the Christian and Jewish sites.

The only written accounts of Jesus resurrection are only to be found in the bible and nowhere else.

So if you are looking for prof is faith the only way you are going to find it because historically or archaeologically is none.

Taken in consideration that the so call witnesses are only in the bible accounts and death for centuries it makes you wonder if this is the biggest religious conspiracy of all times.

Originally posted by marg6043
So if you are looking for prof is faith the only way you are going to find it because historically or archaeologically is none.

Taken in consideration that the so call witnesses are only in the bible accounts and death for centuries it makes you wonder if this is the biggest religious conspiracy of all times.

Bravo marg!

If there were physical proof, then faith would not be needed. Religion (all religions) has evolved into something that it was never intended to be. It has become an industry dedicated to controlling the masses. This distracts us from seeing what is truly going on in the world. That IMHO is the real conspiracy.

I am not religous. I am a Christian.

Originally posted by darkelf
It has become an industry dedicated to controlling the masses.

If I had a nickel for every time...

If religion had a way of "controlling the masses", don't you think world governments would've patented it by now?

Originally posted by darkelf
I am a Christian.

Me too. Sorry we can't meet in church and talk more.

Originally posted by saint4God
If I had a nickel for every time...

If religion had a way of "controlling the masses", don't you think world governments would've patented it by now?

Well taking our American president example all they had to do is be conected to religious groups and preach politics and religion together.

After all he is a born again christian and made it public, and also he reads the bible everyday and also has spiritual conversations with God.

Power comes in many disguises and they don't have to be patented, but they can win you votes.

Originally posted by marg6043
Well taking our American president example all they had to do is be conected to religious groups and preach politics and religion together.

After all he is a born again christian and made it public, and also he reads the bible everyday and also has spiritual conversations with God.

Power comes in many disguises and they don't have to be patented, but they can win you votes.

That's the loosest form of 'controlling the masses' I've ever heard of. What decision he's made on his own that had any effect on the country? What about the other 192 countries?

[edit on 4-8-2005 by saint4God]

Well saint you can call it anything you want but every country has its own brand of relgious beleives and they have been use over and over to gain the public attention and to gain power.

It works here in the US and if it does in the greatest nation of the world it works anywhere else.

[edit on 4-8-2005 by marg6043]

Originally posted by marg6043
Well Jake you can call it anything you want but every country has its own brand of relgious beleives and they have been use over and over to gain the public attention and to gain power.

Who me? I'm not Jake...but if you mistook me for JungleJake, I'll take that as a compliment ^_^.

Originally posted by marg6043
It works here in the US and if it does in the greatest nation of the world it works anywhere else.

I see, so if it happens in one country (which we've yet to establish) then it happens in all. Hm....

Back to Jesus though please. Much rather hear about him.

[edit on 4-8-2005 by saint4God]

Originally posted by saint4God
I see, so if it happens in one country (which we've yet to establish) then it happens in all. Hm....

Back to Jesus though please. Much rather hear about him.

[edit on 4-8-2005 by saint4God]

Sorry for the name change its hard to go about the threads without confusing names in the way.

Yes the Christ and the resurrected messiah, of the bible occurs.

Originally posted by marg6043
Sorry for the name change its hard to go about the threads without confusing names in the way.

No worries, none of us are perfect. After all, we're not God. ;-)

Originally posted by glan
No one will ever prove/dis-prove The Lord's death, burial and resurrection I believe that's the way he wanted it. Take it or leave it that's the choice we get....I choose to take the gift, others may not, but one thing to think about...what if YOU are wrong?

Nice post, Glan. I also chose to accept the gift; the same gift available to every man woman and child alive today. It goes even further though, I think, than take it or leave it( the gift of salvation); Jesus meant for there to be a choice beween the staus quo, which is easy and comfortable- and leads to death, and accepting something marvelous and extraordinary-but only by faith and He says take Me or leave Me-but choose wisely, you may not get a second chance.

Grace and Peace,

Lightseeker

Originally posted by saint4God

Originally posted by darkelf
It has become an industry dedicated to controlling the masses.

If I had a nickel for every time...

If religion had a way of "controlling the masses", don't you think world governments would've patented it by now?

Saint, I'm speaking more of mind control than physical control. Although physical control did exist more in the past due to strict religous laws, there is still much mind control going on today. Do you think that if we spent less time being distracted by Harry Potter and the Da Vinci Code, we might be spending more time checking into things that matter? I'm not limiting the control to the Christian religion. I think that all religions are guilty of this sort of thing. It is because people are too lazy to check the facts for themselves. They're too willing to believe whatever is spoon feed to them by their religous leaders.

Originally posted by darkelf
I am a Christian.

Me too. Sorry we can't meet in church and talk more.

Well maybe we can meet somewhere higher.

Maranatha

Originally posted by WolfofWar
I'm sorry, I got the lineage of two fictional characters wrong, my bad.

lol, okay. Let me ask you something: are all of your assertions as baseless as this one? If YOU can't provide proof of what you are saying, than please don't weigh in. I am not asking Marg too weigh in on this, I know she has a foundation in which she can make this claim. However, you have been wrong already this thread, and backed up your opinions with nothing but your own "wit."

No offense meant by this, just want you to do the research instead of making another baseless claim. There is plenty of proof out there for your side of this debate, and vice versa. However, I will not be getting into it with you.

[edit on 4-8-2005 by Ryanp5555]