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This is a conspiracy site!

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posted on Jul, 31 2005 @ 06:38 AM
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Once upon a time ATS attracted like minded individuals whose theories may have differed, all agreed as to the existence of conspiracies.

I ask why it is today, ATS's membership now includes a large percentage age of non believers? This is a conspiracy site. We come here to talk about these issues, not debate or prove their authenticity to the skeptical. This site has already done this with literally hundreds of pages of proof.

I feel that these intruders have compromised the "brotherhood" I once felt here. Why are they here? I think only to discredit and discourage the expansion of our ideals. They are a conspiracy!




posted on Jul, 31 2005 @ 07:46 AM
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Actually, I welcome the balance.

The biggest problem with conspiracy theorists is conspiracy theorists.
There are far too many "conspiracy kooks" on the Internet slapping any old drivel up on a website. And even worse, there is a new breed I call "conspiracy profiteers" who promote books and videos with great vehemence despite significant evidence to the contrary for their stories.

In the scheme of things, there is far more disinformation and lies circulating amongst all the conspiracy theory websites than you'll ever find coming from the mouth-pieces of governments.

Our balance tends to signify a type of credibility. We embrace and promote alternative and free thinking, yet stay grounded in a skeptical analysis of known facts (the basis of my chosen site name). Speculation is helpful and enables us to consider paths undiscovered. But the type of rampant speculation seen in other conspiracy circles easily encroaches within the territory of lies and deception... and isn't that what we wish to uncover?

We're the single most-popular conspiracy/alternative discussion board by a significant margin. I don't think it's an accident that our growth began around the same time we applied more stringent analytical thinking to the topics we discuss.



posted on Jul, 31 2005 @ 07:55 AM
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Well said SO!

In my humble opinon, I too believe it is extremly important to have a balance of skeptics and believers. Without this we would not be able to discover the truth and truly 'Deny Ignorance'.

I believe that to discover the truth, whatever it is, is far more important than proving something you believe right or proving something someone else believes in is wrong. The way the board functions allows us to expose more information, rather than on some sites where skeletal facts which hold little or no water are presented and then accepted, purely because on the face of it they support whatever theory someone is promoting.
On said sites I often get the impression that the people who put forward the information have little or no interest in fully investigating their claims, for fear that they will quickly crumble under close scrutiny.

Here on ATS we are not afraid of that happening, because we purely seek the truth and the answers to our questions, whatever they may be.

[edit on 31-7-2005 by AgentSmith]



posted on Jul, 31 2005 @ 10:55 AM
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I agree SO. The naysayers are as important to this board as the conspiracy theorist.

First, they create an arena where the posters must research their conspiracies before posting. Without research, we're just throwing around a bunch of ideas that may or may not be acurate.

Second, they challenge our beliefs. This creates more research and can at times cause us to look at things differently.

Finally, they add variety to this site. Sometimes their ideas can enhance our own. Other times, it gives us food for thought and may even cause us to change our own minds.

Challeng is vital to the life of this site. It should be done with respect to the original poster. There is too much name calling going on. This site is for the research and discussion if ideas. Every idea, no matter how outlandish it appears, should be heard. It is through the exchange and discussion of ideas that we learn.



posted on Jul, 31 2005 @ 02:05 PM
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What sort of board would you have if all you got for any theory was a bunch of "yes men" responses?

The slogan "deny ignorance" also speaks of testing each theory and then rejecting that with fails to make the grade.

If you put up a theory then expect it to be tested, if you can't handle critisism then maybe you have bigger problems than just posting on ATS.



posted on Jul, 31 2005 @ 02:15 PM
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Having many people with different views will only bring us closer to the truth.
With out the skeptic we would believe that CCTV Image of 7/7 'Bombers' has been Doctored.



posted on Jul, 31 2005 @ 02:58 PM
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there is a difference between being sketical and at the same time believing in conspiracies, and people who just dont believe in any conspiracy at all, ever, and are just here to be annoying and just roll off the same old rubbish everyone has heard before. ie: it cant be a conspiracy because the government said there wasnt one.

i agree with the poster that there are too many annoying trolls here just trying to pick a fight.
Nothing wrong with skeptical/critical thinking, as long as ther is an option in that critical mind for a conspiracy to exist. some just dont have that option, and i wonder what they are here for.

[edit on 31-7-2005 by AdamJ]



posted on Jul, 31 2005 @ 03:09 PM
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And some people believe that conspiracy theories are a conspiracy in themselves. But this would just end with circular logic. As the person who believes conspiracies are a conspiracy can be accused of a conspiracy.

[edit on 31-7-2005 by Jamuhn]



posted on Jul, 31 2005 @ 09:08 PM
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AtS needs skeptics! Thinking skeptics! It's not being skeptical to just say gimme proof. Then when you post a link, they bad mouth the link and say that isn't proof and proceed to call you a "wingnut" followed by a comment like "cheese anyone"

There is a fine line between skepticism and rudeness. A lot of skeptics think it's real cute to be rude; to me it's just lame.

I can take criticism as well as dish it out so be prepared. I hope I can dish it out with a little grace and style rather than boorish, adolescent sarcasm that I see all to often on ATS.

However give me all the clever, intelligent and witty sarcasm you can muster. Plenty of that here too!

Peace

[edit on 31-7-2005 by whaaa]



posted on Jul, 31 2005 @ 09:40 PM
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some people just make me sigh. you post your opinion and they want it proved, they want it in 'facts.'
can you post a link to back up what your saying? yada yada yada. as if somehow writing it on a webpage instead of a discussion forum makes it legit and an ok opinion to hold and maybe even 'fact.'

its ridiculous because its a conspiracy site not a business/governemtn policy group. we are not making policies or running real businesses based on decisions etc. it just a site of opinion and thoughts and questions.
Yet even if you provide all the things that make you susptious, people will attempt in their own silly way to debunk it or explain it away and it just becomes frustrating.

There is a difference between a good skeptic and a troll. I am a massive skeptic, but at the same time i dont ask for facts all the time because i know it is futile and the site is realy all about theories not proven facts. Facts are great but they are not always gonna be possible.

I dont even think we even need sketpics here, it would be fine without them. But the site has a certain style and credibility becasue of them so there are beneifts to good critique and sensible attitude.



posted on Jul, 31 2005 @ 10:14 PM
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Skeptics are good in a community that seemingly thrives off milking, swallowing, digesting, and inhaling almost all things said, asserted, claimed, and put forth. Credibilty comes with backing what you assert, in most cases. You can't back it, then it will either stand on its own merits or be questioned, and when questioned, be assured that proofs and evidences to back that assertion or claim will be asked for.

Some seem to have issue with being asked for such proofs and evidences. IMHO, if you don't want to be called out or on to provide such, then be a good little conspiracy theorist and provide before hand or simply ignore the requests and let what you assert and claim stand on its own merits.

There is waaaaaaaaaaay toooooooo much crap being placed and accessed on the internet and waaaaaaaaay toooooooo much seemingly being milked, swallowed, digested, and inhaled and then regurgitated and dumped within this community and ATS. Some will believe, some will not, and some will question, where others will not. That is the name of the game, and not necessarilty believing each and everything is what makes this community valid and having credibility; this is what separates this community and ATS from others, and this is what makes some whine about. No one likes 'yes men' or 'I agree men,' those who believe each and everything they read as gospel, and I for one, will abstain from doing so.
There is a distinct difference between one who thinks and one who critically thinks, and that is what separates the real conspiracy theorists from the novice conspiracy theorists, among a few other unmentioned things.

The problem I see is that when one gets called out, the one getting called out automatically jumps to labeling the one questioning a troll. How convenient....?





seekerof

[edit on 31-7-2005 by Seekerof]



posted on Jul, 31 2005 @ 10:14 PM
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One of the first things I learned when I went to varsity was
"Your opinions mean squat".

Unless you can justfy then, back them up from other sources, and stand up for them, they are just a combination of hot air, prejudice, unthoughout fragments of fantasy and personal biasneses.

Thats how I deal with people's opinions here and how I expect my own opinons to be dealt with.

Why should people who make blanket statements "I think the bible is bunk. I think Bush is an alien. I think Al Quaeda is a fantasy... wallow in their own state of misinformation without someone standing up and saying "Why do you believe that?" "Where did you get your information from?"

As iron sharpens iron so one person sharpens another. Otherwise we are just the ignorant preaching out own ignorance.

What a huge waste of electrons ATS would be if we didn't challange one another. Certianly I have learned from having my ideas challanged, and from challanging others ideas.

I can name sites that where divisive opinions are not accepted, and where people don't stand up and say "Prove it". They are nothing more than slums if the intellect.

People who are not challanged do not grow, and become entrenched in their ideas and prejudices.

Thats why I actually like posters like Syrian sister here. She gives us ideas to fight over and other viewpoints to debate. We are not all the same little robots and we get a world view on a topic.




[edit on 31-7-2005 by Netchicken]



posted on Jul, 31 2005 @ 10:34 PM
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From what I've seen on here, most people do have an open mind when someone presents an idea or opinion, and it's presented strictly as such. But when people start making claims like "Bush is an alien bent on world domination," that's when the skeptics come out of the wood work asking for proof. If someone comes out and says "I'm thinking that Bush is an alien bent on world domination, and here's why..." then most of the serious ATSer's will take a look at the argument and try and make reasonable suggestions as to why or why not it's a legitimate argument. Granted, there's always someone in there who'll say something like "Dude, lay off the weed" or worse, but the majority of the posters I've seen will make an honest effort to take your idea into consideration and see how plausible it is or isn't.

I consider myself more of a skeptic than most on here, but I try to keep an open mind. When someone is presenting an idea I'll take it into consideration, proof or not--I know it's hard to give evidence for stuff sometimes, and a lot of the topics on here are harder subjects to back up than most. But if someone is putting something forth as fact, I want to know what makes them consider it as fact and not just an opinion or hearsay. If it's their own personal theory, then I'll look at it as such and see whether it floats or not. If it does, then great, if not, then I'll mention it to the poster and let them consider the counter-argument I offer.

As Netchicken points out, people grow from being challenged. That idea you just came up with may be great, or that theory you just read about on another site may have the right idea. But if there's something missing, don't you want to know what it is? Don't you want to find out what you'll need to do in order to come up with a theory that holds water in all scenarios?

It sucks getting an idea shot down. I get mine knocked out of the air all the time, in just about everything I do. But that's what makes me better. People won't buy this program? Why not? Okay, I'll change that. This song sounds terrible? Why? Okay, I'll change that verse and take the piano down a notch. Criticism is one of the hardest things to take, but it's a necessary evil when dealing with anything of a "creative" nature (and yes, theories--scientific or conspiracy or whatever--take creativity to come up with.)

And there's always going to be someone you just can convince, or someone who's going to talk down on you. The mods are here to keep those who bad mouth you in check, and you just have to live with the fact that some people will not believe you no matter how great of an argument you can make.

As for everyone else, those who are offering honest criticism and critiques are not here to discredit the theories but are here to boost the credibility of them. That's how I look at it at least; I could be wrong.



posted on Jul, 31 2005 @ 10:34 PM
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Skeptics like me, are a good thing. With out us this wouldnt be a conspiracy board this would be a distant blurry image of baloon = Alien board. And even skeptics believe in some conspiracies. Just not ones that arent true.



posted on Jul, 31 2005 @ 10:50 PM
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It takes on a whole new meaning when applied to those here.

Welcome back SO, I have just got in and didn't get the debrief from Quicksilver, good thing the search is over.

One can not exist with out the other, recall this. What would darkness be with out light, good with no evil. We would not know what being tired is, if no one ever slept. This is the truth behind the science of every action having an equal, and opposite reaction. The problem in this world, begins when man, ties to influence that natural order. Thinking (there is that word again), that they can some how influence the balance, for their own benefits. This of course is as abundant as the false beliefs also polluting the collective human species.

Denied should be the comforts of going with the flow, gone should be the band wagons. As each and every person is unique, so too, should be our stances.

[edit on 31-7-2005 by ADVISOR]



posted on Jul, 31 2005 @ 10:53 PM
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I see a lot of postings on this thread that are attempting, whether intentional or not, to divide people on ATS between conspiracy theorists and skeptics. And, I don't think there is a need to divide people. Conspiracy theorists are skeptical of conventional knowledge in certain areas; they are skeptics too.

And even skeptics can have bad intentions; someone can be skeptical out of their own personal bias or fantasy as well, and say things such as "I don't believe it; That's ignorant; You are stupid." So while the person putting forth a conspiracy theory may provide a plethora of evidence to back up a claim, you can also have the self-described "skeptics" there who don't provide anything useful.

So before everyone attempts to paint the skeptic in glory, how about we just realize that, whether you are a promoting a conspiracy theory, or being skeptical of it, people still want evidence of why, and not just rhetoric like, "That's not true; you are just a braindead liberal."

And I want to stress once again, that conspiracy theorists are skeptics as well, they are skeptical of conventional knowledge as related to a specific subject.



posted on Jul, 31 2005 @ 10:59 PM
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That is my opinion, perhaps the most intelligent statement, I have read from you to date. I am very happy that members never cease to amaze.

People, thinking, deny the igorance of further polarization by preventing yourself from doing so.

United we stand, the rest is not an option.

[edit on 31-7-2005 by ADVISOR]



posted on Jul, 31 2005 @ 11:00 PM
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im sure all mods have issues with the amount of stuff that comes up, but i think it would be fair to remember that very little in the conspiracy world is ever widley accepted by everyone. People might say one thing or another is a conspiracy and even 60 years later it still has not been proven.
It is important to question things obviously, but i have a problem with people who seem to see it as their aim on everything. I think questioning and pondering arise out of natural discussion on topics form people who are genuinely interested in it, rather than forced interrorgation for the sake of it.
It is not the questioning that is bad in my eyes, but the attitude of the person doing the questioning.
I think everyone on the site must always keep in mind that it is a conspiracy site and people might talk abut things there is just not going to be any proof of, so if theres not should they be stopped form discussing what they believe? you also have to think about where you draw the line on what is proof and what is not.
There are people on the site who talk about aliens, should that topic be banned unless the poster can actually provide proof satisfactory to everyone on the site that aliens exist? i would hope not.
The balance is quite a delicate one.



posted on Aug, 1 2005 @ 12:41 AM
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Smart words, much to say, good thread...



posted on Aug, 1 2005 @ 06:59 AM
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Interestingly, there are a number of people on this board who are, I perceive, in the same boat I am. There are a number of "conspiracies" that I would love to believe that are posted on regularly on this board. Take UFOs, for instance, I have seen things I could easily be convinced are UFOs... Indeed they are exactly that. However, to automaticaly, or perhaps magically, give myself over to the idea that they are aliens from Sirius, Lizard people from the bowels of South America, or whatever, with no hard evidence, is silly. There are no rocks in the sky, therefore, rocks can not fall from the sky.


I even enjoy the idea of believing in new strange ideas, on a daily basis... Once again with the"howevers", to do so just because some one posts something under the title of 'Bush is an alien shape shifter: FACT", doesn't make it fact. Placing evidence from highly questionable or controversial sources, such as David Icke, doesn't help much. You buy what he says completely, and totally, but others do not. Therefore, there must be evidence found from elsewhere. And if what your source is saying is valid, there will be other sources that can validate or invalidate, simply because "truth is truth". Icke, Lazar, and some of the others do not have a corner on intell and truth... It's out there... Ya just have to put them in perspective. That perspective is, "OK... That rings true for me! Now I gotta find some validation, some evidence ... some proof".

I believe that if evidence and proof for things like aliens from where ever, the reality of the abominable snowman, the secret Nazi redoubt in the South Pole, etc, etc. is going to be found or brought forth, it will eventually be in a place much like ATS, if not ATS. I believe that ATS is the best available site on the www for someone like me to hang out on, and occasionally argue with someone on. But putting up statements, wanting acceptance is going to require proof, and that requires work, investigation and sweat.

I think that if I, and others like me here, are an affront to you for questioning what you say and not buying it as gospel or jumping on board in an unquestioning manner, then maybe it is YOU who is on the wrong board. There are a number of lesser places where you will be glad handed and butt patted (like in American Football), but that in nowise makes what you say, think or feel, valid, true, or proof of anything other than your ability to think to a certain degree.

I'm still waiting for that big flash of insight or enlightenment to hit me. I would love to come out and say something like, "Bush is a shapeshifting salamander from under the oil fields in Texas" ... Or "UFOs do indeed come from the Planet Munimula", but I am going to be sure I have thoroughly investigated my options before I do so... Cause people out here like RiverGoddess, Off the Street, and the Bollywood Babe, will spank me like a red headed step child otherwise... Hmm... The Conspiratorial origin of red headed step child beating ............




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