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No one expects the . . . Spanish Inquisition!

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posted on Jul, 30 2005 @ 11:38 PM
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Interested in the struggle between muslim and western civilization, I've been reading up on the Inquistion.

A lot of what I have learned is pretty disheartening. As concerns my education.

I am an American protestant, and it seems that, while the Inquisition was pretty disgusting, it was not quite what it was always portrayed to me in school (and Monty Python films!)

The stereotype of the "Spanish Inquistion" includes these myths.

1. The inquistion tortured everybody, and took thier wealth
2. The inquisition burned people, thousands of women, ALIVE, at the stake.
3. The Spanish Inquisition was an arm of the Catholic Church.
4. The Inquisition was focused exclusively on witchcraft.


I have been studying the Inquisition among the Pueblo tribes in the American Southwest. In the period I'm reading about, (1680-1720), torture wasn't even used in the province I'm researching!

The inquistion, as well as the British protestent version, did kill witches, by hanging. Their bodies were burned afterward, because they couldn't be buried in the community churchyard, and their bodies were thought to spread plagues.

The Spanish Inquisition was an arm of the Spanish government, rather than of the church. The Spanish crown was trying to unify Spain and expel the (Muslim) Moorish invaders, as well as Jews . . .

The inquisition was actually focused on what priests taught, and upon what saints were venerated.

Here is an article, the introduction to which specificaly adresses Anglo- Protestant, anti-Catholic and Anti-spanish propoganda. (Note it IS from a Catholic website.)

www.catholic.net...

Even though it definitely has an axe to grind, the article also makes a telling point, if you've ever watched old pirate movies, or watched a british stage production (My Fair Lady, for example).

I am interested in this because of the similarity to the "Red Scare" of the 1950's. Elia Kazan said that the Hollywood people he named REALLY WERE COMMUNISTS who sought the violent overthrow of the United States.

But of course, that has been edited out of the history books, and both the McCarthy trials and the Inquisition are held up as Right-wing excesses of hate and hypocrisy.

Sort of like today's patriot act.




posted on Aug, 3 2005 @ 12:56 PM
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I have seen and mused on this post several times before deciding to post on it.

First off let me say...what you post concerning the Inquesition may be true in its early days. It is obvious at some point that the Inquesition was hijacked and taken over for political reasons in Europe. The Catholic church had reasons to worry about the muslim invasions after what happened in Eastern Europe and the invasion throuh Constantinople. However I do not think for a minute that the Inquisition was eventually for such noble reasons. IT is obvious that it was hijacked and taken over as a modus operandi to get rid of any opposition to Rome. Mostly through Dominican Friars or the Society of Jesus.
My main point is that to the believer operating under knowlege of the Word....the RCC has no such instruction as a New Testament Church to carry on such as a Church in persecution of such peoples and the killing/murder of them on any religious grounds. The proper Christian method of dealing with them is to seperate from any communication with them. Come out from amongst them and be ye seperate sayteh the Lord and touch not the unclean thing. This is not what the Roman Catholics did. This is evidence that they are not a New Testament Church and are in fact following some other rules and guidelines or to put it another way ..another Christ and another God. The RCC has switched Gods without telling anyone as did the Hebrews of Olde TEstament times.

Much of this persecution can be traced in JOhn Foxxe and his Book of Martyrs. JOhn Foxxe points out that not only were the Roman CAtholics doing this but at times so were the Lutherans and Anglicans so it is not just the RCC conducting themselves so. The RCC just happens to be the largest group conducting themselves so.
As to taking peoples stuff..or belongings this too is covered by John Foxxe.

No Christian Church has any instruction anytime to conduct themselves as a Crusade or Inquesition as is recorded in history.

Also..Dr Strangecraft...the Roman Catholic Church is anything but ignorant about many things. Their scholarly standards are first class and obviously thier schools also. I have no disputes about their scholarly abilitys.
However this means one other important thing about scholars. If they choose to lie and decieve many they are capable of doing so in a scholarly manner ..but it is still a lie and a decpetion. It means that a scholars lies and deceptions are more believable than my unscholarly lies and deceptions. One must be very careful about reading any such material when forming a opinion. This is very similar to politics where men of letters try to get the public to believe the party line ..no matter how true or false.
Be very careful of scholarly motives.

The Pueblo Indians of the late 1600 to the 1720s were not much of a problem to Rome and I can see why this is so imporant to Rome as a example of the Inquesition.
The facts are that the Inquesition of the Roman Catholic church was so much more than this Peublo Placebo. People need to realize this.
Also your point about the Red Scare was valid. Hollywood is a bunch of actors..not people like you and me who make our livings differently. WE do not act out our benifits to society. We would not be able to make a living doing so. The only place such Communist make believe could survive is in such a artifical structure such as Hollywood or Washington DC. or to put it another way ..in the Halls of Academia. A closed system free from honest public scrutiny. This is obvious by the collapse of Russia.
Yet our politicians , academics and media free thinkers want to hold up Hollywood celebritys as a sterling example of all America. Rubbish. Total Rubbish. As if Hollywood was a automatic default setting to represent all of America. Only public education can dumb down Americans this much.
Just watch how many dumb Americans today ..define some aspect of thier lives in terms of some movie they have seen...they have no real life experiences to draw upon. Incredible that they would have to default to such a sorry group of people as Hollywood politicians. Not much different from the Red SCare of the 1950s..it has just come this far by public ignorance. And politicians are not beyond taking advantage of the publics ignorance in this arena ..after all ..who finances public education...politicians.

Before I shove off ..I would like also to know your opinions on the Muslim issues on which most Americans and peoples in the WEstern world seem to be asleep at the wheel. Thanks.

Thanks for a good post ,
Orangetom



posted on Aug, 4 2005 @ 07:06 PM
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well, I am sort of biased, being married to a person of Middle Eastern origin. And I don't mean West Virginia.

A thousand years ago, the two cultures (Muslim & European) collided. What happened was that the "moderates" in both cultures were whittled down by the threat from beyond the seas.

One argument I've heard made by non-Europeans is that Europeans have an incredibly violent culture. This is due to the fact that the West was almost surrounded & overwhelmed during the crusades. The muslims had superior numbers, superior technology, and superior logistics.

The war between the two cultures wiped out the Moderates in Europe. The only "survivors" were petty chieftans who were so violent that The Muslims didn't want any traffic with them. Vlad Tepec was an example of this. The "little dragon" (or "dracula") said that he would never parley with muslims; that all of them--or CHristians who parleyed with muslims, would be killed in startlingly original ways.

The other "greats" of the dark ages were similar: Barbarossa, Ottocar I, the Teutonic Knights, Templars, et al.

The military orders of the middle ages were a response to "Jihad," which was a new doctrine based on an old muslim concept of creating a muslim super-state.

Basically, BOTH cultures fed off of the conflict. Europe was profoundly altered, because it was the more threatened of the two.

------

In many ways, I think the current conflict has overtones of that earlier one. Someone said "History doesn't repeat itself--but sometimes, it rhymes."

Looking at other cultures' interaction with Islam, i.e. Hindu, Chinese, Muscovite, etc., I think there is practically no chance for peaceful coexistence, until muslim fascists see the campaign as too "expensive" in terms of their own lives and religion.

Today's Jihadists are essentially Wahabi; the same tribe that brought Sa'ud to power in Arabia. Also the same group that led the Moors in trying to re-take spain in the Late Middle Ages.

The only way to defeat them is in the battlefield of human motivation. The Israelis have begun to achieve this in the west bank. Fewer and fewer Palestinians are willing to die what they see as ultimately futile deaths. The "barrier," and the doctrine of razing homes and buildings used as terror bases, holds promise.

On the larger horizon . .. oops. gotta go.



posted on Aug, 5 2005 @ 01:38 AM
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Originally posted by dr_strangecraft
I have been studying the Inquisition among the Pueblo tribes in the American Southwest. In the period I'm reading about, (1680-1720), torture wasn't even used in the province I'm researching!


Study harder. And use some Pueblo sources.

We loved the way we were being treated so much, that we went to war and expelled the Spanish. Sure, nobody tortured us
we just went nuts for no reason (not).

Just living around you new guys is torture for us.

IMO, Moslems and Catholics were made for each other- like two WWF wrestlers.


I do share your sentiments about the futility of co-existing with Islam.

[edit on 5-8-2005 by Chakotay]



posted on Aug, 5 2005 @ 03:19 AM
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So we meet again, Herr Doktor!

As a former Catholic, I find your sources shall we say...a kind glossing over. Though rarely acknowledged by the faith, the Spanish Inquisition WAS an arm of the catholic church at one point. The inquisition as a whole was started in 1184, and Ferdinand merely bullied the catholic church into allowing it to slowly spread. The Inquisitors themselves were members of the Catholic Church, and I believe they might have even been ordained in certain cases. Also, Pope Innocent VIII requested that fleeing Jews and Muslims be extradited back to Spain for 'trial'.

Also, unrepentant types were indeed burnt at the stake.

Sources: en.wikipedia.org... , and a torturous Catholic highschool education.

I'm sorry, but I must disagree with you on this one. The West CAN coexist with Islam, eventually. Now, you can make it hard, make it a scorched earth sort of deal, and drag it out across the centuries, or you can give the Islamic countries what they lack: education and creature comforts.

OMGWTF!!1!1!!! you might exclaim in horror, but hear me out. Islamic countries have very little seccular teaching, no? So they fall behind in the sciences, the history and whatnot. Ignorant people are easy pawns of Jim Bob the Islamofascist. Less ignorance=less people done s'ploding theyselves.

Now, as for the comfort remark, look at Afghanistan, Iraq, and Saudi Arabia. Look at the poverty statistics. Who's more likely to fight for the Cause -hell, any cause, especially a messy one like in Palestine- : Someone who lives miserably in a hellhole, or homeboy kicking it back in a Swiss orbital spa? What I'm trying to say is that while you are right that the battle is in the field of human motivation, struggle sometimes increases drive.

Why is the army having a hard time recruiting? Well, I'm roughly of recruitment age. Let me tell you exactly what I think:

PS2, intraweb, women, sitting on my lazy ass all day in an air-conditioned cubicle playing Bejeweled > getting said ass perforated by shrapnel and bullets, running around, getting shot at, being yelled at all day under the burning hot sun of some foreign country where people are willing to blow themselves up to kill me

Same thing will apply to them. Give them the PS2, the MTV, the Coca-Cola, and sweet sweet western decadence, and I'll bet you dollars to donuts that you'll have 75% less suicide bombers.

DE



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