When do we get our Liberties back?

VOICEOFDOOM, you are making points that have nothing to do with this thread. I have already said that what we are doing in Iraq is a sham. but that is not waht we are talking about so READ the thread. we are talking about the little stepped up security measures that have been taken on our own soil and how people on this thread are crying like they now have no "liberties" because of it. We are not talking about forein policy we are talking about domestic policy. We were not attacking the "arab lands" when they flew planes into the trade center or bombed the twin towers in '93 and we do not have to be attacking "arab lands" for the to attack us again on our own soil.

HOWARD, you bring up good points about Launchpads claims and that is what i was trying to say, it seems absurd that someone is only getting 2000.00 for a property that he says is 200,000.00. I just can't believe it, but if it is true, then he is being wronged and like you said (and i said before) it sounds like he has an easy case for a lawyer to win.
also when i looked up what he told me to i found nothing about landowners being ripped off anywhere.


[edit on 2-8-2005 by GREGNOW]

Originally posted by LA_Maximus
boogyman, name (1) Liberty that you PERSONALLY have lost since 9/11.

Name just (1) that you had before 9/11 and is now lost.

I can't think of any, unless your name is Akmed and your a visiting student from Pakistan. Than your gonna be jacked up at the airport with good reason. Other than that, it seems like your railing against our government for no good reason.

Maximu§

I know one liberty that has been lost is the fact that your freedom can be taken away at any moment. For no reason. In other words, they can take everyones freedom away and tell them what to do, where to live etc whenever they want. It's like living on a timebomb, and that isn't liberty.

Oh and another? If they think you're a terrorist they'll just ship you off to Guantanamo bay to give you an unfair trial without (1) the right to chose your own lawyer (2) the right to a civil hearing (3)the right to have a jury. They can arrest anyone they like with barely any evidence, that is lost liberties.

EKUL, the fact that they may or may not "be able to take our freedom away at any moment" is not a lost liberty unless they are actually doing it and they are not doing.
again you, I and the majority of American's can walk out our doors today and do exactly what we have been doing our whole lives and no one is taking that away from us.
If they did start doing that, then that would be the time that the majority of Americans would then uprise.
But just because they now search more bags in certain areas like the NYC subway, does not mean we have lost our liberties.
It's common sense that we need stepped up safety measures in the times we live live in, can i be any clearer on this by my 2 posts above?

Also if you have nothing to hide and are doing nothing illegal then you are not getting "shipped to Guntanmo". No one is shipping massive amounts of American citizens to prison just for the heck of it. If they were, again 70% of the people on this site would be there for talking bad about the current admistration. But guess what you still have the freedom of speech to do that and no one is knocking on your door and taking you away.
No liberties lost.

Gregg-

More exaples which you can deny in one way or another. www.cbc.ca...

www.abovetopsecret.com...
www.abovetopsecret.com...

Please resume.
[edited to include relevant ATS threads]

[edit on 2-8-2005 by phoenixhasrisin]

It has become clear to me that most people won't see the danger until they are directly affected. When they hear stories about people they don't know, they assume that those unknown people are a threat and deserve their punishments. They trust that their governments are good and just and free of corruption.

What were the good Germans thinking when the first train load was brought to the camps? My guess is that very few were even aware of it and of those few, many probably just concluded that the world is a different place and that enemies were everywhere. I would also guess that there were 1 or 2 that thought to themselves "It's started."

Ladies and gentleman, our constitution is being compromised and we had better start paying attention.

Originally posted by rawiea
Your Liberties are history now. What we have lost is gone forever. Try to keep what you still have. No US Cabinet Department wants to lose what it has, so Congress will keep the Department of Homeland Security (DHS) well stocked with former American Liberties.

When does the War on terror (or the struggle against extremism for that matter) end?

It doesn't matter when or if it ends. People will put up with quite a bit for a false sense of security. How many times have you heard of businesses paying criminals "Protection Money" not to rob them? Just that example is in dozens of movies because it has happened, probably still does in places.
Do you really want your Liberties back? Next couple of elections, try to vote for the Third Party Candidates who share your concerns. Get your friends to, also. Only when we get a new Government through the Ballot Box will you see a return of the Liberties you asked about. Oh, there will be small victories, giving some of them back--conditionally, I think. Will they outweigh what we still have to lose?
By the way, I capitalized Liberties for a reason.

[edit on 29-7-2005 by rawiea]

I find it appalling that people believe this country was attacked by foreign terrorists... There is proof all around, from many people, including a media spokesperson, the builder of the wtc and tower 7, guilinani, and we don't do anything about it. People naively turn on their tv after work and sit in front of it watching sensationalistic journalism that has no ounce of truth, that isn't fair and balanced, and isn't the most trusted name in news.
Just because they put a label on it doesn't make it so. That's like the People Army of China, the military killed many protesters back in 89, just because it's called the people's army of china doesn't make it so.

The 911 was an inside job created by the us government for their own selfish reasons, they are allies with israel, and the pnac group has crawled back into the woodwork with bloodied free hands..

There is no justice in this country for the masses, and to fight our government is useless, they have the technology, fighting them with at the ballot is useless, diebold is working with them.

Our job is to go to work everyday bring home the bacon and just worry about our small insignificant lives with our family. Don't question the govenrment, don't buck the system, and tune into your faux news every night of the week, and your bubble won't be bursted.

That's what we've amounted to, got lazy, and now we're paying for it.

It's well deserved.

So what Pheonix? the link you sent they obtained the warrent through the patriot act? But then because of that they observed them going through the DRUG TUNNEL. so the people they got the warrent on were GUILTY. It was not like they were AVERAGE american citizens that were not up to something. so waht's you point.
All throughout history BEFORE the partriot act cops have got warrents and searched wrong house by mistake, it happens. Inthe article you link to though the people actually were going in and out of the tunnel. so they were guilty and the cops knew it and needed the warrent and they caught them doing it.
Like i said if you have nothing to hide and are doing nothing illegal then you have nothing to worry about. Maybe you have something to hide iguess, i don't know.

It's amazing one of you on this thread is crying that authorities are not doing enough about the drug problem in America and then another posts this links to say they are abusing the Patriot Act. Because they used the Patriot Act they caught the people who were bringing drugs through the tunnel. SO JOB DONE. who cares how they did it, they caught the people who were bringing drugs through. also it is not like they did not have evidence that they were doing it. They obviouly knew these people were up to this and then they used the Patriot act to get the warrent to get them. Good job i say.

you act like the authorites had no real reasons to bugged these peoples home or something. they are not just getting warrents to bug average americans homes. They got it to catch people they knew were up to no good. And they caught them, so what?



[edit on 2-8-2005 by GREGNOW]

BELGRATH, i can not even believe you are comparing the Jews being forced out of their homes and rounded onto trains to what is going on in America just because they are searching more bags in certain areas like the NYC subway. No one is rounding up american's and doing anything to them. If it does happen then people will fight it. but it isn't happening. Only thing happening is little things that are being put into action to try and safegaurd our way of life here a little better.

Originally posted by HowardRoark

Originally posted by launchpad
In most cases the original owner gets SCREWED so that the corporation can clean up.

I should know I am going through it right now in Colorado Springs for the corporation owned toll road. I just purchased my 2.5 acre/ 3 bd/ 2 bath place in DEC 04 as a retirement property for ~$150K and immediately invested about $20K more- this week i got papers telling me my "just compensation was going to be around $800 an acre for a grand total of only $2000 to include the house".

Plans for a road project don't get made and competed in 7 months time. They usually take several years. This indicates to me several possibilities.

1) you are lying (sorry, no insult intended, but I have no way of verifying what you are claiming). However, for now I will assume that you are telling the truth.

2) You failed to do your homework on the property before purchasing. Did you have the property appraised before you purchased it?

Was it financed by a local bank or mortgage company?

All of these people should have known about this before you purchased the property.


or 3) you are the victem of fraud. If the previous owner (or the real estate agent) knew that the road was coming through and did not disclose this to you, then you are the victim of fraud. I would suggest that you consult a lawyer. It wouldn't be hard to prove that they knew about it. There would have been articles in the local paper, mailings from the county to the property owners, other real estate sale in the area, etc.

Like I said in the beginning it was close held and only a rumor when I got back from overseas. The developer got rights to develop the back in the 80s and now that they are openly pursuing the project you can bet there is a bunch of people fighting it. Problem is like I said earlier it runs across SEVERAL voting districts and very few people that are effected reside in each one.

home.mindspring.com...

You are right it does not normally move too fast- I got the notice right after moving in and they haven't done anything since. There are numerous studies on the toll road several pointing out that it is going to cost too much to use and the I-25 corridor is being widened right now and eliminates the need.

My particular location might just save my house from getting snatched- since this is supposed to be a high-speed expressway the location of a certain AFB may cause them to miss me.

$800 is correct as stated for average price PER ACRE for the length of the toll road- which came in the first (and only) notice I received. the notice further stated that this was for PROPERTY with or WITHOUT structures due to the rural ness of the area. 2.5 * 800 = $2000. No stretch there. Sure when it comes down to it I could most likely FIGHT for at least the last county assessors value but what is THAT going to cost me- and can my individual case make it before a judge- are you familiar with class action suits????

I do not have the time now but will come up with TONS more for you if you wish but it is slightly off topic. Point being what CAN now happen to and individual for rocking the boat and not just passively giving in.

Originally posted by GREGNOW
BELGRATH, i can not even believe you are comparing the Jews being forced out of their homes and rounded onto trains to what is going on in America just because they are searching more bags in certain areas like the NYC subway. No one is rounding up american's and doing anything to them. If it does happen then people will fight it. but it isn't happening. Only thing happening is little things that are being put into action to try and safegaurd our way of life here a little better.

I'm not comparing the two. At this point, the situation is not even close to what was happening in Germany when the trains started rolling. I do see some similar tactics, but I also know that if Hitler had to do it all again, he'd do things quite a bit differently. It has happened before, and if we're not careful, it WILL happen again somewhere.

You do realize that very similar scare tactics were used by the Nazi's to convince the people they needed protection? You mentioned that nothing is happening yet. How do you know? With current policy, folks can be taken away, never to be heard from again. When did the good Germans realize something was very wrong? Apparently, they didn't realize it soon enough, because it wasn't until the Allies showed up, that things started turning.

GREG, I'm not one of those folks that's convinced that the guys in charge are all evil. I'm familiar with history and I keep up on current events. I take everything I hear from the govt. with a grain of salt. History has shown that this is prudent. What I see worries me tremendously and I care to much about my country to ignore the warning signs. Far to many Americans think their leaders are immune to corruption. I, on the other hand, believe that our current political system breeds corruption.

Launchpad, were your provded with a copy of one of these?

What did they indicate in section H?

Like I said, you may have reasonable grounds for a lawsuit if it can be shown that the previous owner had prior knowledge of the condemnation before selling you the property.

BELGRATH, i have already stated more then once in this thread that i feel the current Bush adminstration IS corrupt. however that does not mean that we do not need stepped up security measures to do at least a little something to safegaurd our homeland. That is what is going on and that is what is needed. Now if they do indeed try to take it further and start taking people out of their homes and locking them up and all that when they have no real proof of anything on the people they are doing it to, then that is the time to fight and a ton of americans would. but that is not happening and just because there are little stepped up security measures does not mean it is going to happen. The new measures are needed and there should be even more (like with containers at our water porst and with our food supplies).
If someone is not doing something illegal and has nothing to hide then they are not going to be taking people out of their homes. The authorites do not even have enough resources to that anyway if they wanted to.

Gregnow,

I agree with you. I don't quite understand your adamancy concerning your view but I suppose it's because I see it from another perspective. That perspective is as follows.

I see a cliff; a precipice. I see us heading for it at an alarming rate. No, we are not there yet. So no, we have not fallen off the cliff yet. But I see it as some in this thread do as well. I don't think it's doomdayish as much as it's a warning bell for what looks precarious.

That is just my view.

[edit on 8-3-2005 by ShadowHasNoSource]

Maybe I should explain further. I am not seeing what I see because a few people get their backpacks searched. There is much more that I see going on that sets off the alarm bells. High level whistle blowers recently talking about 911 being an inside job, just to name one. But, there are many inconsistancies and so forth. So yes, if we just view a few bag searches and leap to a conclusion that our liberties are gone, I agree completely that is blowing it out of proportion. But I personally see a lot more to it and I think others do to.

Originally posted by HowardRoark
Launchpad, were your provded with a copy of one of these?

What did they indicate in section H?

Like I said, you may have reasonable grounds for a lawsuit if it can be shown that the previous owner had prior knowledge of the condemnation before selling you the property.

Oh, yes I have one of those- when next home I will look- I know that there were easements and such listed there- 10 ft each side. (I'm getting married this weekend and leaving directly after work tonight so ya'll might have to wait a bit )

I got my house at a steal of a deal because the previous owner bit off way more than they could chew and filed for bankruptcy- no respite there for a law suit.

What concerns me is the limit of cases a court might hear before it is lumped into a class action law suit. It this case the law actually protects the developer and aids them getting away with the low ball bids for the property. It goes back to AVERAGE price along the route. Nearly 200 miles of roadway and last article I read said 600 families affected. Plenty to cause it to go to the class action versus individual attention. Not every family will lose the house but maybe some of the land. (~10,000 acre horse ranch adjacent to my property)

Ok, of say 600 properties a whopping 25% (really not likely given the rural-ness or agricultural-ness of the area) require the condemnation of the structure. It raises the average price per acre somewhat- but totally clobbers the folks losing the structure too.

I have a tiny place only 2.5 acres for the area- if I loose any I lose it all. My notice was only one of: my property is being considered for condemnation- they have not condemned anything YET.

How much is it going to cost ME to take it to court by myself- if I can get it separated out of the class action? Not like going to court is free now-a-days!!! The entire value of my property no doubt. Courts seldom make the developer pay court costs when the fight is about wither or not the property gets turned over to them. In the end they can still get my property and I still have to pay some attorney- so I could be out twice the value of my land.


Still wrong is wrong and with the PA going into effect there is not much anyone can do once city hall says it is going to happen- they just snatch you on the way home from work and hold you until after it goes to court- default judgment = you lose.


My house finally being one to get condemned or not- I am fighting city hall because this is wrong and I have a backbone. I also believe in fighting for those who are too scared or otherwise unable to come out and do it for themselves.

I am also attempting to fight this PA thing but meeting a lot of flak from some well intentioned and very naive individuals thinking it comes down to minor inconvenience and bag checks. Once the law is signed there is nothing keeping these OTHER things from being used against the populous in general.

Don't worry until people start disappearing- WHAT????!!!!??????!!!! Start worrying the second they TRY passing the law- it is well past the worry point now. Give an inch they will take a mile- we have seen it time and time again- were you not paying attention? Without those rights that were taken away by the PA once you fall into their clutches you have no leg to stand on to even argue your point of rights being violated. There is no fighting it at that point short of open rebellion- you will be labeled a subversive/ terrorist and rounded up. (Seen the news about the UK lately??) Unless, you have HUGE numbers of people you actually just become a subversive anyway.

Most sheeple aren't going to stand up and be counted unless it directly affects them and there is little or no risk. They will all find some convenient excuse to the effects only being minimal to the population at large or that there must have been a reason THOSE people got rounded up(like Greg) and use that to get to sleep at night- meanwhile the country that was once great gets eviscerated.


Can you follow me??

here is one source i quickly found giving you the same numbers i did for the "super slab" not the official notice - still looking.

The FRTRC incorporated in 1986 with this idea. I guess there was some outcry then. And again in the 1990s when there were rumblings about it. And each time Mr. Wells and the FRTRC went underground. When I moved here in 2000 I heard nothing about it. Then HB05-1030 (written by the FRTRC's lobbyist) was introduced on 12 January 2005, testified on, and passed the House Transportation Committee on 2 February 2005, and passed the full house on 8 February 2005. All without anyone being notified. Most of us learned about it when the papers ran stories about it after passing the House with headlines like "Front Range Toll Road Passes Hurdle." I know I said, "What Front Range Toll Road?" and then looked at the map.

My "representative", Deb Stafford, said that she voted for the bill because she'd heard no public outcry against it. She has since, of course. But I don't know of anyone who knew anything about this before the House voted for it. If nothing else, I imagine that there are a lot of people out here who will now study every bill that's introduced. So we're going to be more politically aware, which is probably a good thing.

In Mr. Wells testimony to the House, he showed a 20-year-old map of the area, he said only 200 people would be affected, he characterized the people as "starving ranchers willing to give up their land." We've seen prices of $200-$1000/acre bantered around and know that land is going for a lot more than that around here. That seems underhanded, especially using the old map

read the history of the project here! www.nosuperslab.org...

why we didn't know buying our house.

Why Isn't the Front Range Toll Road listed on My Title Search or Title Insurance?
Under Colorado Statute, 7-45-101, Annotated: "Moreover, as long as the power to locate a road remains unexerted, the lands upon which the exercise of the right may ultimately cast the easement are uncertain, and no given tract or parcel of land can be designated as charged with the easement. (Riddell v. Animas Canon Toll Rd. Co., 5 Colo. 230 [1880].)
So, this seems to say that until an actual route is registered, we're all up in the air as to where the road will go. Only after it's stated where the road will go does an actual easement exist.

LAUNCHPAD, my point is no avergage american citizens are getting rounded up and NO we have not seen it "time and time again" like you say. If it has been happening time and time again, then show me where and to who???
Point is they are NOT just going to start "rounding up" average american citizens because they pass the new patriot act. what point is that going to serve except to start a public outcry and get a ton of lawyers to start fighting the gov't.?
It serves no purpose. People are already at an outcry over Guntanemo and that has nothing to do with "average american citizens". so can you not see the huge outcry that would be caused if for some reason the gov't. starts rounding up average americans. It does not even make sense (except to those who are paranoid).
Bottom line is that if you have nothing to hide or are not making threats or you are not doing anything illegal, you are NOT going to be "rounded up". Authorities do not even have enough resources to do that if they wanted to and again it serves no purpose at all anyway.

N-E-V-E-R! You will never get your liberties back as long as you continue to elect either Republicans or Democrats into office. First you need to understand that there really is NO two-party system in this country. They are working together on their global agenda and unfortunately, your liberties are NOT a part of that program. Quite the contrary... your LACK of liberties is EXACTLY what they are counting on to implement their program. Until the "Sheeple" of the United States wake up, yank their heads out of their arses and DEMAND a real change in government, we're ALL cooked! Say goodnight, Irene!

You have voted kozmo for the Way Above Top Secret award. You have two more votes this month.

Originally posted by kozmo
N-E-V-E-R! You will never get your liberties back as long as you continue to elect either Republicans or Democrats into office. First you need to understand that there really is NO two-party system in this country. They are working together on their global agenda and unfortunately, your liberties are NOT a part of that program. Quite the contrary... your LACK of liberties is EXACTLY what they are counting on to implement their program. Until the "Sheeple" of the United States wake up, yank their heads out of their arses and DEMAND a real change in government, we're ALL cooked! Say goodnight, Irene!

I wish more people would recognise this... Both parties are funded by Multi-Billion dollar conglomorates - who have nothing more in mind then turning you in a consumers - livestock to fund and feed their NWO... But its a shame that Americans have been socially-engineered to see things in terms of black and white, right and wrong, and republican and democrat... its a shame that they dont see in shades of grey... Which is probably why your country is screwed... Wake up...

For a conspiracy site, so many of you seem to beleive everything your government feeds you... Perhaps you should go find a George W. fansite to waste your time at...