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What does "Christian Nation" mean?

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posted on Jul, 29 2005 @ 07:47 PM
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Well, lets look what this so called christian nation has done

Genocide of the Indians, worse then Hitler's on the Jews.
Blacks being property for a century.
Women being nothing but baby factories until the 1950's/1960's.
Lynching blacks and people who supported equal rights.
Beating gay people before you drag them behind your car until they die.
Killing anyone who had a brain.
Class Warfare.
Invading other nations for oil.
Worshipping Bush and other corrupt politicians while declaring church going democrats evil.

Also, we were founded by Freemasons, not christians. Only christians think we were founded by christians, but then again they think there was a world flood and a Garden of Eden, so what a christian think doesn't really mean much, does it?




posted on Jul, 29 2005 @ 07:50 PM
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To be fair, James, Christianity isn't the only religion "responsible" for most of those acts, either.

(In all honesty though - it's not the religion at fault, but the followers, surely?)



posted on Jul, 29 2005 @ 08:05 PM
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Damn James, please, a coherent arguement please. Rants don't help your cause, whatever it is.



posted on Jul, 29 2005 @ 08:25 PM
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Originally posted by intrepid
Cool, you were looking for an answer that you could manipulate to make your point, truth be damned. I didn't know that. I'll look for it in later posts. Maybe I'll be able to digress enough from reallity to contribute.


I'm afraid you are mistaken. I did not have a point to make. I was asking a question out of curiosity. Once I got a real answer from Lordling, I gave my opinion based on that.

I was simply asking what a term meant. I had no agenda and I'm a bit offended that you are suggesting that. I cannot make you believe me, though. Hopefully you will get to know me and know that I would never do what you have suggested. Feel free to look through my posts and try to find the underhanded behavior you suggest. Talk to all your fellow moderators who have given me applause.

If you actually read beyond the first sentence of my original post, you'll understand that my question required a definition, not a yes or no. If you didn't have time to read the whole post, I suggest you not answer until you do.

To provide an analogy, I was asking a question like "What will we do if the sky turns orange"? and you were answering "The sky is blue, not orange!"



posted on Jul, 29 2005 @ 08:32 PM
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Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
I did not have a point to make.


Then why the thread? You obviously had some point, lost in the logic thrown your way. Please, try again.


That's twice today that your dogma has been run over by my Carma.

Want to go for the trifacta?

I'm game.



posted on Jul, 29 2005 @ 08:35 PM
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GODS!!! You have got to be kidding me!!! Do people actually have IQ's low enough to post this crud! Jeezus freakin christ! Plz! To all idiots...plz, spend time in chat rooms learning about normal life before trying to surpass yourselves and before going into real boards posting jibberish that gives me a headache even having to read such nonsense! Ahhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!
!



posted on Jul, 29 2005 @ 08:39 PM
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Originally posted by Strianissa
GODS!!! You have got to be kidding me!!! Do people actually have IQ's low enough to post this crud! Jeezus freakin christ! Plz! To all idiots...plz, spend time in chat rooms learning about normal life before trying to surpass yourselves and before going into real boards posting jibberish that gives me a headache even having to read such nonsense! Ahhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!
!


My apologies, I just got assigned this forum and guess what I saw?


I'm thinking I'm going to be a fan favorite.



posted on Jul, 29 2005 @ 09:03 PM
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Just visit Japan once. Watch the TV for a while. You will understand the difference between a Christian place and a non-Christian one. It really doesnt have much to do with the government.



posted on Jul, 29 2005 @ 11:23 PM
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This post was one I made in PTS in reference to a similar discussion.
The short answer to the question is, yes, this nation is a Christian nation. What does that mean? Does it mean you must be a Christian? Of course not; Christianity is a relationship between the himan and his Savior, and that is not something that can be forced onto a human being as we have free will. The nation was based, however, on Christian ethics, morals and principles, even though we humans have a hard time following those same things. Regardless, here is the post:

Should the president be a Christian? Well, let's think about what John Jay, one of the drafters of the Constitution and the first Chief Justice of the USSC thought. He said that as this is a Christian Nation, we have the responsibility to elect Christian leaders. Gee, I wonder what he meant by that?

Does the Declaration of Independence mention God, perhaps? Let's look:

"When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."

Take note, those of you who say that ours is not a Christian nation, born of Christians; if you win, and God is thrown out, guess who that means gave you those rights....the government! If that be the case, who has authority to take them away? You guessed it. If you were smart, you'd change your position no matter what you believe!

Is there anymore in that document? Let me look....

"And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes and our sacred Honor."

Yup, there was. The very last sentence. Seems the Declaration of Independence is framed in Divineness!

How about the first President? We all know that he was such a devout believer in Christ that he he is said to have spent as much time on his knees praying as he did on his feet, but where did he stand as far as separation of his beliefs and the office he held?
Let's read the Proclamation of Thanksgiving, dated 1789:

"Whereas it is the duty of all nations to acknowledge the providence of Almighty God, to obey His will, to be grateful for His benefits, and humbly to implore His protection and favor; and Whereas both Houses of Congress have, by their joint committee, requested me to "recommend to the people of the United States a day of public thanksgiving and prayer, to be observed by acknowledging with grateful hearts the many and signal favors of Almighty God, especially by affording them an opportunity peaceably to establish a form of government for their safety and happiness:"

Now, therefore, I do recommend and assign Thursday, the 26th day of November next, to be devoted by the people of these States to the service of that great and glorious Being who is the beneficent author of all the good that was, that is, or that will be; that we may then all unite in rendering unto Him our sincere and humble thanks for His kind care and protection of the people of this country previous to their becoming a nation; for the signal and manifold mercies and the favorable interpositions of His providence in the course and conclusion of the late war; for the great degree of tranquility, union, and plenty which we have since enjoyed; for the peaceable and rational manner in which we have been enable to establish constitutions of government for our safety and happiness, and particularly the national one now lately instituted for the civil and religious liberty with which we are blessed, and the means we have of acquiring and diffusing useful knowledge; and, in general, for all the great and various favors which He has been pleased to confer upon us.

And also that we may then unite in most humbly offering our prayers and supplications to the great Lord and Ruler of Nations and beseech Him to pardon our national and other transgressions; to enable us all, whether in public or private stations, to perform our several and relative duties properly and punctually; to render our National Government a blessing to all the people by constantly being a Government of wise, just, and constitutional laws, discreetly and faithfully executed and obeyed; to protect and guide all sovereigns and nations (especially such as have shown kindness to us), and to bless them with good governments, peace, and concord; to promote the knowledge and practice of true religion and virtue, and the increase of science among them and us; and, generally to grant unto all mankind such a degree of temporal prosperity as He alone knows to be best.



Given under my hand, at the city of New York, the 3d day of October, A.D. 1789.
"
Hmm, sounds a bit religious, if you ask me.

Ben Franklin was mentioned on this thread somewhere in a manner that would lead one to believe he was against religion in the government place, but the funny thing is, he is the one that admonished us, saying that the only way this experiment in society would succeed was with Christian ethics, morals and principles. Now, how do you suppose you'll learn such principles and morals? By watching Desparate Housewives? Maybe Nip/Tuck?

John Adams was also mentioned. Here is his Proclamation of Thanksgiving. Darned athiest!



"As the safety and prosperity of nations ultimately and essentially depend on the protection and the blessing of Almighty God, and the national acknowledgment of this truth is not only an indispensable duty which the people owe to Him, but a duty whose natural influence is favorable to the promotion of that morality and piety without which social happiness can not exist nor the blessings of a free government be enjoyed; and as this duty, at all times incumbent, is so especially in seasons of difficulty or of danger, when existing or threatening calamities, the just judgments of God against prevalent iniquity, are a loud call to repentance and reformation; and as the United States of America are at present placed in a hazardous and afflictive situation by the unfriendly disposition, conduct, and demands of a foreign power, evinced by repeated refusals to receive our messengers of reconciliation and peace, by depredations on our commerce, and the infliction of injuries on very many of our fellow-citizens while engaged in their lawful business on the seas--under these considerations it has appeared to me that the duty of imploring the mercy and benediction of Heaven on our country demands at this time a special attention from its inhabitants.



I have therefore thought fit to recommend, and I do hereby recommend, that Wednesday, the 9th day of May next, be observed throughout the United States as a day of solemn humiliation, fasting, and prayer; that the citizens of these States, abstaining on that day from their customary worldly occupations, offer their devout addresses to the Father of Mercies agreeably to those forms or methods which they have severally adopted as the most suitable and becoming; that all religious congregations do, with the deepest humility, acknowledge before God the manifold sins and transgressions with which we are justly chargeable as individuals and as a nation, beseeching Him at the same time, of His infinite grace, through the Redeemer of the World, freely to remit all our offenses, and to incline us by His Holy Spirit to that sincere repentance and reformation which may afford us reason to hope for his inestimable favor and heavenly benediction; that it be made the subject of particular and earnest supplication that our country may be protected from all the dangers which threaten it; that our civil and religious privileges may be preserved inviolate and perpetuated to the latest generations; that our public councils and magistrates may be especially enlightened and directed at this critical period; that the American people may be united in those bonds of amity and mutual confidence and inspired with that vigor and fortitude by which they have in times past been so highly distinguished and by which they have obtained such invaluable advantages; that the health of the inhabitants of our land may be preserved, and their agriculture, commerce, fisheries, arts, and manufactures be blessed and prospered; that the principles of genuine piety and sound morality may influence the minds and govern the lives of every description of our citizens, and that the blessings of peace, freedom, and pure religion may be speedily extended to all the nations of the earth.



And Finally, I recommend that on the said day the duties of humiliation and prayer be accompanied by fervent thanksgiving to the Bestower of Every Good Gift, not only for His having hitherto protected and preserved the people of these United States in the independent enjoyment of their religious and civil freedom, but also for having prospered them in a wonderful progress of population, and for conferring on them many and great favors conducive to the happiness and prosperity of a nation.



Given under my hand and the seal of the United States of America, at Philadelphia, this 23d day of march, A. D. 1798, and of the Independence of the said States the twenty-second.



[seal.]



JOHN ADAMS
"

I doubt anyone read all of that, but there it is. The evidence is still there, and in his own words. Doesn't sound like an anti-God fella to me. Especially since those are the words of a presidential proclamation (official, governmental type action).

What about Jefferson? He is always the banner-boy of every anti-Christian type who screams that Christian should keep their beliefs in their own homes.Could some things have been taken out of context in order to make him look like a non-Christian?

Old Tom wrote a letter to the Danbury Baptist church, who'd sent him a congratulatory letter for winning presidency. While the letter was used to explain why he didn't issue a proclamation of thanksgiving and fasting as president, he was apt to using vague language invoking God in other official statements. Interesting enough, this man who was supposed to be so anti-Christian regularly attended church services that were held in none other than (hold on to your hats, ladies) the House of Representatives!

How could Jefferson be against Christianity in America if his treaty with the Kaskaia Indians provided public money for the tribe's Roman Catholic priest and Church? Strange, huh? Don't worry, that was cut off when the aid reached $500,000 annually. A fella could have a pretty good time in Vegas with all that! Pardon the Dr. Strangelove flashback at the end, there)

How has history been revised? Simple. We allowed it to be revised; taught in the classrooms and fed to us in the media. We've been told the lie so many times that we believe it. I am giving you the facts, as I love facts. You may embrace them, or you may allow the lie to continue to hold onto your heart - that's your choice. As far as I'm concerned, there is no way to fight against the calculated attack against this nation that has been drunk with prosperity for too many years to defend itself from the offensives conducted by those who with to destroy it.
I'll finish this essay with the words of Ronald Reagan:

"The Constitution was never meant to prevent people from praying; its declared purpose was to protect their freedom of prayer."



posted on Jul, 29 2005 @ 11:37 PM
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TC, as usual you are well-researched, however, I would like to point out, in relation to this documentation (as well as many other samples in various threads), that it does not reflect adherence or preference for the Christian faith. As the FF are copiously on record as professing a Deist philosophy, it is obvious that they held a firm belief in God. This does not mean they were adherents or followers of the Christian faith. Faith in God is not codependent on Christianity.



posted on Jul, 29 2005 @ 11:53 PM
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It was understood in those days that "religion" in reference to this nation was the Christian faith. Even the fav of the Diest cryers (much of their assertions are merely attempts to dilute the truth), Thomas Jefferson, said that he'd looked at many religions of the world, and the bset one he saw to found this nation on was the Christian faith.

To make it as perfectly clear as possible, look at what Jon Jay, the first Chief Justice of the U.S. Supreme Court declared. He said that it is our duty to elect Christian leaders to rule this Christian nation. Anyone want to go by the thoughts of our first chief jurist? I imagine He'd the best clue, more so than the activist courts of today.



posted on Jul, 30 2005 @ 12:15 AM
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Originally posted by Thomas Crowne

...what Jon Jay, the first Chief Justice of the U.S. Supreme Court declared. He said that it is our duty to elect Christian leaders to rule this Christian nation. Anyone want to go by the thoughts of our first chief jurist? I imagine He'd the best clue, more so than the activist courts of today.


I agree with your assessment of the current members. I'd be happy (as well as surprised) if we could just have them with the qualities of integrity, honor, impartiality, ethics & natural morality coupled with a decent level of intelligence. Christianity does not hold a monopoly on these attributes, although I will concede spirituality & belief in God would help tremendously.



posted on Jul, 30 2005 @ 04:12 AM
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Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic

I'm asking what does the term "Christian Nation" mean?

I think it means that the powers-that-be choose to justify their actions and decisions, both rational and perverse, with the blanket coverage for impunity by taking on the name of Christ as the source of their leadership.

That's probably just my opinion, though.



posted on Jul, 30 2005 @ 07:00 AM
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TC

You need to come around here more often. I realize that your post will fall on deaf ears for half of the people reading it, but it will at least phase the other half a tiny bit, while the 'truth' gets a chance to breathe



posted on Jul, 30 2005 @ 10:03 AM
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Thomas Crowne, Thank you so much for your input. It’s very clear to me from what I’ve read here and elsewhere that the founders of this country at least had the idea that religion (specifically Christianity) was very important to them and that they anticipated that the continued success of the nation would depend on adherence to Christian values by the citizenry.

If you’ll allow me to condense your post and check that this is your basic message:

The term “Christian Nation” means (among other things):
- That said nation was based on Christian ethics, morals and principles.
- That the founding documents mention God and detail that our rights come from God.
- That the founders’ religions were an important and guiding influence in their lives.
- That the founders had in their minds and hearts the hope of a religious citizenry.
- That we celebrate and honor God with our religious holidays, such as Thanksgiving.

These points are evidence that the US is a “Christian Nation” by your definition. These are all historical facts that indicate to you that this is a Christian Nation. I get that. Thank you.

What I’d like to know is - What impact does this information have or should this information have in the modern world? If indeed we are a Christian nation, as you assert, what relevance does that have in our current situation?

Is it your implication (for example):

- That all of our laws and government should be based on Christian principles?
- That, for example, homosexuality should be outlawed because it’s against the law of God?
- That adultery should be punishable by law?
- That the ‘rules’ of Christianity should be enforced by law?

This was really my original question. I’m not taking a position on whether or not this is a Christian nation. I think that is a subjective issue. I’m asking those who say it is - to expand on what it means in our lives today.



posted on Jul, 30 2005 @ 11:07 AM
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BH, you took the line of thought to the next logicol level.
No society that has ever lasted at any level of greatness was torn and divided culturally. The very idea of society is a group of people who share common beliefs, such as pirinciples, ethics and morals.
Religions are not the same. For example, the Hindus worship the very object we see as the primary ingredient to hamburgers. WE see the Great Commision as to spread the word about Christ, and then those who hear are allowed to make a choice while the Islamic belief is spread with a much sharper and harsher sword. On and on, there are major differences.

With Christianity, there are sects (called denominations today), and the FF's didn't want the feds to declare, for example, that the Methodist church was the Federally sanction state church. Man! Civil war automatically as we Southern Baptists know that you are supposed to get a bath and not just moisten your face!

Now, if the several states wanted to have a recognized sect, that was fine, as each state was allowed to be different. However, it was certainly expected that the sect be a sect of Christianity, and no attempt was made to do otherwise.

As I said before, BH, the fact that the nation is (was) a Christian nation does not mean that one has to be a Christian, but that the Christian ethics, norals and principles were the ones we were to try and use.



posted on Jul, 30 2005 @ 08:18 PM
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I hope this is not a christian nation, espically if they have too much power in washington which they do...
i hope a lot people will turn away from religion, it has a ready done enough damage to this small rock we live in.



posted on Jul, 30 2005 @ 09:25 PM
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I think I have learned that what people mean when they say "Christian Nation" is that basically, they think Christian values should be made law, putting it simply and succintly.

I think making laws to enforce morals or values would be pretty impossible and not only that, I believe its a direct violation of the Constitution (Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion), so I disagree with that aspect of it.

I have much respect for people choosing their religion and practicing it, but I don't want to. We do have free will and that means that people are free to practice religion or not.



posted on Jul, 30 2005 @ 11:43 PM
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BH, that is exactly what a law is; the enforcement of morality. What else do you think it is?
WE also have statutes and codes and the like, but those are commercial or equity in nature, and aren't the same.



posted on Jul, 31 2005 @ 08:14 AM
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Originally posted by Thomas Crowne
BH, that is exactly what a law is; the enforcement of morality. What else do you think it is?


I think a law is a rule of conduct for society to cohabit and live peacefully and safely, while respecting others’ freedom and pursuit of happiness. Some examples:

Societal cohabitation:
Tax laws (financial care of the society’s structures)
Landlord/Tenant laws
Theft

To keep peace:
Disturbing the peace
Vandalism
Assault

To insure safety:
Speed limits
Driving while under the influence
Murder

IMO, morals are a personal issue and I believe it’s unfair and imposing on personal freedoms to try to tell people how to live (beyond the basic societal laws), who to love, how to die and whether or not to breed.




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