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Leading cleric rails at injustice of 'Muslim bashing'

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posted on Jul, 29 2005 @ 01:36 AM
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This is interesting, Mohammad Naseem, the chairman of the city's central mosque, called Tony Blair a "liar" and "unreliable witness" and that Muslims "all over the world have never heard of an organisation called al-Qa'eda".

He's considered a moderate and one of the most respected in the UK and what he says is true, as much as it will hurt the 'patriots'. Basically, Muslims are being villified without fair investigation because of a group which Muslims don't even acknowledge an existance of.



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He said: "Tony Blair has told lies on going to Iraq and in a court of law if a witness has proved to be a liar he ceases to be a reliable witness. So we cannot give our blind trust to the Government.

"To have that trust it is important that the process of law should be independent, open and transparent. I am also sad that unfortunately the impression has been given that Muslims are to be targeted in this war against terror. There seems to be a directive to target Muslims. Why do we not have an open mind about this?

"Muslim bashing seems to be more earnest than the need for national unity and harmony. Terrorists can be anybody - we will have to see [whether the bombers are Muslims]. The process is not open; the process is not transparent; the process is not independent. I do not have faith in the system as it stands."

Mr Naseem is one of the most respected Muslims in the city and is considered a moderate. He has regular meetings with the chief constable to discuss religious harmony.




[edit on 29-7-2005 by Netchicken]




posted on Jul, 29 2005 @ 01:45 AM
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The Muslim faith needs to begin to put a real effort in policing their own ranks really soon if they don't want "muslim bashing" to skyrocket. If there was a rogue element of Christianity, say the Methodists, going off and killing in the name of Jesus, you can bet you'd see every other sect like Presbyterians, Catholics, Anglicans, Calvinists, etc. doing everything possible to discredit them in the strongest possible terms. While I admit there have been the occasional fatwah and march, the outrage doesn't seem to be global and genuine nor effective.


[edit on 7/29/2005 by djohnsto77]



posted on Jul, 29 2005 @ 02:00 AM
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Basically, Muslims are being villified without fair investigation because of a group which Muslims don't even acknowledge an existance of.

Ok, one man said it does not exist....not the entire community of Muslims.
Just because they are not part of and or affiliiated with it....that does not mean it does not exist.

Well there sure is some group of Radical Muslims out there blowing stuff up all over the world.....whatever they go by..who cares, they DO exist.

The KKK does not exist...cause I, sportymb, Have never seen it or know anyone who has.


:shk:

djohnsto77...you are so right



[edit on 29/7/2005 by SportyMB]



posted on Jul, 29 2005 @ 02:02 AM
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Originally posted by djohnsto77
If there was a rogue element of Christianity, say the Methodists, going off and killing in the name of Jesus, you can bet you'd see every effort every other sect like Presbyterians, Catholics, Anglicans, Calvinists, etc. doing everything possible to discredit them in the strongest possible terms.



What about the current Pope telling fellow priests NOT to talk about sexual abuse with children, to hide it from the public? Where was the outrage from fellow Christians in regards to that? What about Christians killing abortionists or the American lady who this month only got 40 years in prison for decapitating her 3 children because she thought they were 'possessed'? Basically, there's plenty of examples of religion being the cause of bad things on the Christian spectrum but we don't blanket them as evil and assume they are responsable when something bad happens. There's no media smearing of them on a level which tries to paint them as evil and something we as 'normal' people should be afraid of.

I've personally read quiet a bit from Muslim leaders who do nothing but talk badly about the acts of Terrorism around the world but it's rarely seen on mass media or the commercial news stations, in fact a lot of the time that is a point they bring up - that they aren't being heard and aren't getting the attention of a media which would rather focus on accusing Muslims in an ongoing government investigation.

The point being made was that there's no REAL investigation into a terrorist event, there's no independent investigation looking at all aspects of how, why, who, it's always straight to the Muslims and sticking to that angle even if nothing comes of it.

The conspiracy theorists will come up with hundreds of questions and many avenues of investigation which are just as warrented but because they may not focus on Muslim extreemists, they are just brushed off - they don't fit the grand plan. 9/11 for example is still a block of Swiss Cheese because the Government refuse to acknowledge anything which defies the 'islamic extreemists did it' line of thought, plus it's yet to be independently investigated.

Why expect Muslims who don't agree with the media's accusations or even believe in the existance of groups associated with them to suddenly act holier than the rest of us when 99.9% of them have no involvement in any of what's happening? When a government gets multiple warnings of an event and they let it happen, they are instantly more suspect than the average Muslim person yet they are not the ones persecuted.

Since we know that the Church is ripe with paedophilia and the Pope supports that information staying private, should we 'normal' people just assume all Christians are peddo's until sexual abuse of children stops all together?



posted on Jul, 29 2005 @ 02:09 AM
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Ok. if he is a respected muslim and telling the truth, he and all other muslims of hi caliber, for lack of a better word, need to come forward and say there is no such organization and present the facts or evidence, for Lord's sake dont let a war continue and remain silent about the government lying about al-qaeda. One of the biggest problems is that civilians in the west have no idea about muslim culture, we do not know what is true and false. The Government can very well spread lies about you, your people, and culture to try to destroy you and your communities.
Please, if you have evidence to the contrary get the word out!



posted on Jul, 29 2005 @ 02:14 AM
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What about all the other respected Moderate Muslim Leaders that admit Al-Queda (or however you spell it) exist and that thier actions do not reflect Islam. Is that not acknowledging thier existance?



posted on Jul, 29 2005 @ 02:20 AM
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Shroud,

All of your purported examples were dealt with swiftly and harshly by the government of this country and have never been embraced by any significant sect of our society.

Try again.

BTW -- The 9/11 B.S. has been debunked so many times, I'm not even going to bother with it.

[edit on 7/29/2005 by djohnsto77]



posted on Jul, 29 2005 @ 03:16 AM
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Originally posted by XphilesPhan
Ok. if he is a respected muslim and telling the truth, he and all other muslims of hi caliber, for lack of a better word, need to come forward and say there is no such organization and present the facts or evidence, for Lord's sake dont let a war continue and remain silent about the government lying about al-qaeda. One of the biggest problems is that civilians in the west have no idea about muslim culture, we do not know what is true and false. The Government can very well spread lies about you, your people, and culture to try to destroy you and your communities.
Please, if you have evidence to the contrary get the word out!



And where is the proof that al-Qaeda is real? Where are the facts or evidence? NO al-Qaeda cell has ever been proven as existing besides one Palestinian al-Qaeda cell being caught in the Gaza Strip which turned out to be Mossad faking the presence of an al-Qaeda cell to drum up support.

Why should it be on Muslim leaders to do the work of intelligence agencies and governments to prove the existance or non-existance of a global terrorist movement? What's happening thou is they are being more and more cornered and accused to the point when a crime is committed or their religious views are spoken we are presented that information cloaked in fear and mystery. It's a very scripted thing that is happening and i think the point that Muslims are unfairly being put first with little to no independent investigation is true. We know the government needs an enemy and the more we 'fight' this enemy the more we are being conditioned into believing it's the Muslims, the ones with the opposite religion and who live on the land which holds the value to our future - our way of life. It's not the religion or 'freedoms' we have that they want to destroy, it's the fact that we have built a lifestyle that requires the fossil fuel under their feet which if we don't get soon, will destroy our way of life.

I agree with the rest of your post thou, the problem is we as a culture assume our knowledge is the forefront of all knowledge but amazingly lack any real understanding of other cultures. The death of investigative journalism which has been replaced with highschool newspaper stories has been a big blow to our education as a whole. It's sad that media which can present real information, is being forced into a self-funding documentary film, DVD and web publishing just to get the truth out.

The Muslim voice against terrorism is very real but the coverage of it is next to nothing. We say, 'why don't they speak up?' instead of saying 'why don't the press look for their opinion and seek their knowledge?'.



posted on Jul, 29 2005 @ 03:25 AM
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The problem with the cleric's choleric, is that the people who ARE the suicide bombers are muslim. I didn't see a single christian, buddhist or Hindu among them.

Time for Islam to own its own problem. If its own adherents stop killing people in the name of their religion I guess and "Muslim bashing" would just go away.

The fact that their own people believe and follow AQ seems to negate his assertions that muslims don't know about it. Just because HE didn't know about it does not mean others didn't.

Now I also don't see any evidence of "muslim bashing" from Blair. he has said NOT to pick on the Muslim people because of it.

Nice bit of Islamic ranting, the typical "victim mentality" of individuals who fail to take responsiblity for their own problems.



posted on Jul, 29 2005 @ 03:28 AM
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Originally posted by djohnsto77
Shroud,

All of your purported examples were dealt with swiftly and harshly by the government of this country and have never been embraced by any significant sect of our society.

Try again.


Really, i'd love to read where Bush and other western leaders have publically condemned the Pope for supporting the silencing of Pastoral paedophilia.

And 40 years for a women who decapitated her 3 children and put their bodies in a bin because she thought they were 'possessed' is equal punishment when we villify a race, religion and population and invade their countries because of the 'terrible' acts a few of their 'crazier' types commit?
She should be allowed to be freed from Prison around the time most people on this forum will retire?



BTW -- The 9/11 B.S. has been debunked so many times, I'm not even going to bother with it.


"9/11 for example is still a block of Swiss Cheese because the Government refuse to acknowledge anything which defies the 'islamic extreemists did it' line of thought, plus it's yet to be independently investigated."

Is what i originally wrote.
I'd love to see ANY government acknowledged independent investigation of 9/11. I'd love to see the research done by independent agencies of the wreckage, steel and evidence collected. I'd love to see the government discuss the wargames they were running and why NORAD had stand down orders. I'd love to see the Pentagon footage. I'd love to hear from the FBI translators that have been silenced after they admitted they were told to slow down on translating prior to 9/11 when the government said they had 'too much to translate it all'. I'd even love to see a COMPLETE government investigation that looks at an angle which doesn't start with a conclusion.


Do you have to talk yourself into believing the stuff you write or does it just come out?




posted on Jul, 29 2005 @ 03:34 AM
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Our government doesn't need to condemn the Pope, we jailed the responsible parties and they'll never again see the light of day.



posted on Jul, 29 2005 @ 03:36 AM
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Sorry shroud but you are merely changing the topic to diffuse responsability or deny reality.

How about keeping your arguments to the topic that YOU started?



posted on Jul, 29 2005 @ 05:00 AM
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Originally posted by djohnsto77
The Muslim faith needs to begin to put a real effort in policing their own ranks really soon if they don't want "muslim bashing" to skyrocket. If there was a rogue element of Christianity, say the Methodists, going off and killing in the name of Jesus, you can bet you'd see every other sect like Presbyterians, Catholics, Anglicans, Calvinists, etc. doing everything possible to discredit them in the strongest possible terms. While I admit there have been the occasional fatwah and march, the outrage doesn't seem to be global and genuine nor effective.


Hey a group of so called Christians are going off killing people, it's called the Bush administration.
So where is the Christian bashing you expect to happen?

How do you expect Muslims to police an organisation they don't even recognise?
True Muslims, especially here in the West, don't have any more of a clue who the "terrorists" are than we do.
Maybe instead of targetting Muslims for the inability of our own governments to provide the safety they claim to give us we should stop doing things that create terrorists in the first place.
Stop trying to turn the middle east into something it really doesn't want to be. Their culture goes back thousand of years, America is the new guy on the block.
The west is controlled by corporations, that's the problem, not Muslims!!



posted on Jul, 29 2005 @ 05:01 AM
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The reason the man has never heard of Al-Qaeda is because Al-Qaeda doesn't even exist.

How many of those Terrorists cells have actually been linked to Terrorism?

How about that chemist that was supposedly involved in the London bombings?

How about any of the supposed London Bombers?

Why aren't any of these guys linked to Al-Qaeda? Because Al-Qaeda doesn't exist.



posted on Jul, 29 2005 @ 10:02 AM
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As far as I can gather, and this is the general consensus over in the UK, Al Quada exists more as an ideological movement than a physical entity, that is lots of disparate, extremist groups endorsing and acting in accord with the movements cause rather than claiming direct connection. I think it's a little asinine of this man to try and minimise the fact that at this moment in time the terrorism we are having to deal with is certainly directly linked to the Islamic world, albeit a small but vociferous faction.



posted on Jul, 29 2005 @ 10:11 AM
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Originally posted by aelphaeis_mangarae
Why aren't any of these guys linked to Al-Qaeda? Because Al-Qaeda doesn't exist.



if Al Qaeda doenst exist maybe u can explain Osama's interviews and wat he and his group's intentions are. u just denying the reality of the real terrorist threat, u want to brush the terrorist threat to the rank of common crime. than to the threat to the world.



posted on Jul, 30 2005 @ 09:46 AM
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If It Walks Like A Duck. You know what I mean.
These misguided fools killing civilians and blowing up tourist attractions are not the part of the Girl Scouts of America. They may also not be the average practioner of Islam either. But it is foolish not to examine the evidence and observe that the general common factor is the terrorist motives, and the common background or beliefs that they share. These are ideologically motived killers. Whether these killers exemplify the average believer that practices Islam is a moot point, they are in large part Muslims, if there is evidence to the contrary, then let's see it.
Most Christians stopped ideologic purges during the Age of Enlightenment and during the Reformation, the fighting in Ireland not-withstanding.



posted on Jul, 30 2005 @ 03:35 PM
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Al Qaeda is a name, a name used to give a target to the enemies we face.
It is not a country, a specific group of people as in an organisation or anything other than a collective term used to describe the extremist groups of Islamic origin that we are currently facing a threat from.


Name

A name is a label for a thing, person, place, product (as in a brand name), and even an idea or concept, normally used to distinguish one from another. Names can identify a class or category of things, or a single thing, either uniquely, or within a given context. A name for a specific individual or plurality is sometimes called a proper name, and is a proper noun. Other nouns are sometimes, more loosely, called names; an older term for them, now obsolete, is general name.
en.wikipedia.org...



Al-Qaeda (Arabic: القاعدة - al-Qā‘idah, "the foundation" or "the base") is the name given to an international alliance of militant Islamist organizations. Originally built from the cadre of Saudi-funded Arab fighters who flocked to join the mujahideen resistance movement against the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan, it seeks to establish, via military and terrorist tactics, a radical form of Islamist ideology to supplant both current regimes in the Middle East and eventually Western society as a whole. The group places itself in confrontation with the United States, because the U.S. and other liberal democracies stand between Al-Qaeda and the achievement of its extremist objectives. Another reason for their conflict with the United States is their perception that certain aspects of Western culture and values are incompatible with Islam. Al-Qaeda has masterminded and inspired terrorist attacks against both civilian and military targets around the world.

Although "al-Qaeda" is the name of the organization used in popular culture, the organization rarely uses the name to formally refer to itself. The origin of the name "al-qaeda" is disputed; some allege it was coined by the United States government based on the name of a computer file of bin Laden's that listed the names of contacts he had made at the MAK in the Bait al-Ansar guesthouse during the late 1980s. Bin Laden himself says of the origin, saying "We used to call the training camp al Qaeda [meaning "the base" in English]. And the name stayed." [2]


en.wikipedia.org...



Al-Qaeda evolved from the Maktab al-Khadamat (MAK) — a mujahideen resistance organization fighting against the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan in the 1980s. Osama bin Laden was a founding member of the MAK, along with Palestinian militant Abdullah Yusuf Azzam. The role of the MAK was to channel funds from a variety of sources (including donations from across the Middle East) into training mujahideen from around the world in guerrilla combat, and to transport the combatants to Afghanistan. Bin Laden and the MAK have allegedly been aided by the governments of Pakistan and Saudi Arabia, and indirectly (and perhaps unknowingly) by the United States, which channeled all of its support via the Pakistani intelligence service, the Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI) Directorate. In fact, the Arab contingent in Afghanistan during the latter half of the 1980s was quite small and not generally involved in the fighting, rather limiting its activities to logistics, housing, recruitment and financing of the mujahideen. Bin Laden, the MAK, and most of the Arab volunteers were largely unknown to the CIA and the American government during the war to oust the Soviet from Afghanistan; only later would the Arab element come to U.S. attention.en.wikipedia.org...



From same source as above
Is al-Qaeda real?
Al-Qaeda has no clear structure, and this permits debate as to how many members make up the organisation, whether it is millions scattered across the globe, or whether it is even zero. According to the controversial BBC documentary The Power of Nightmares, al-Qaeda is so weakly linked together that it is hard to say it exists apart from Osama bin Laden and a small clique of close associates. The lack of any significant numbers of convicted al-Qaeda members despite a large number of arrests on terrorism charges is cited by the documentary as a reason to doubt whether a widespread entity that meets the description of al-Qaeda exists at all. Still, the extent and nature of Al Qaeda remains a topic of dispute.

A useful distinction can be made between al-Qaeda and Islamist terrorists. Islamists generally operate nationally within one country, whereas al-Qaeda is mostly involved in international terrorism, but also has links to national terrorism. The vast majority of the people arrested appear to be Islamists, not al Qaeda. Even the al Qaeda name itself does not seem to have been used by bin Laden himself to apply to his organisation until after the September 11 attacks. Previous attacks attributed to bin Laden and al-Qaeda were, at the time, claimed by organisations under a variety of names. Bin Laden himself has since attributed the al Qaeda name to the MAK base in Pakistan, dating from the Afghan war days. Daniel Benjamin in "The Age of Sacred Terror" cites an incident in the early 1990s where a document titled "The Foundation", Arabic "Al Qa'eda", was found on an associate of Ramzi Youssef. [5]


Just because a lot of you didn't hear about them until 9/11 doesn't mean they didn't exist.

Did you know that in the early years of it's a life, a baby/toddler will cover it's eyes when in trouble or when trying to avoid it's parent's because it's primitive brain believes that if 'he/she cannot see you, you cannot see them'?

It's good to read things like Wikipedia, which I think of as a pretty good source of information. But I can understand that as it's controlled by mind eating lizards of the fourth reich of Saturn that some people would rather collate their information from far more reliable resources such as David Ickes website, or Prison Planet.

[edit on 30-7-2005 by AgentSmith]

[edit on 30-7-2005 by AgentSmith]



posted on Jul, 30 2005 @ 05:25 PM
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A (singular) Muslim cleric in the UK has made some comments some find disagreeable.

And what? He is hardly representitive.

It is unfortunate that all this heat and noise is expended upon the one guy who has said this kind of thing as opposed to the hundreds who have publicly strongly condemned the terrorism and spoken out strongly against it in the UK following the attacks.


The following is the full text of a fatwa issued by the British Muslim Forum, with the approval of more than 500 UK Muslim clerics, scholars and imams, on Monday 18 July:
We wish to express our sincere condolences to the families of all the victims of the London attacks. We pray for the swift recovery of all those who are recovering from injuries.

There are many questions emerging from the London bombings. One of the most important questions is what does Islam say about it?

To answer this question Muslim scholars, clerics and Imams from all over the UK have been consulted to issue this formal legal opinion (fatwa) so that Muslims and non-Muslims can be clear about Islam's stance on such acts.

Severe condemnation

On behalf of over 500 clerics, scholars and Imams the British Muslim Forum issues the following religious decree:

Islam strictly, strongly and severely condemns the use of violence and the destruction of innocent lives.

There is neither place nor justification in Islam for extremism, fanaticism or terrorism. Suicide bombings, which killed and injured innocent people in London, are haram - vehemently prohibited in Islam, and those who committed these barbaric acts in London are criminals not martyrs.

Such acts, as perpetrated in London, are crimes against all of humanity and contrary to the teachings of Islam.

The Holy Koran declares:

"Whoever kills a human being, then it is as though he has killed all mankind; and whoever saves a human life, it is as though he had saved all mankind." (Koran, Surah al-Maidah (5), verse 32).

Islam teaches us to be caring towards all of Allah's (God's) creation, not just mankind. The Prophet of Islam who was described as "a mercy to the worlds" said: "All creation is the family of Allah and that person is most beloved to Allah who is kind and caring towards His family."

Islam's position is clear and unequivocal: murder of one soul is the murder of the whole of humanity; he who shows no respect for human life is an enemy of humanity.

We pray for the defeat of extremism and terrorism in the world.

We pray for peace, security and harmony to triumph in multicultural Great Britain.

news.bbc.co.uk...

- Or how about these guys -

Muslim leaders in the UK have reacted with shock to the news that the London bombers may have been British-born young people from their community.
The Muslim Council of Britain's secretary general, Iqbal Sacranie, said it had received the news with "anguish, shock and horror".

"Nothing in Islam can ever justify the evil actions of the bombers," he said.

Sir Iqbal said the "criminals" who bombed London needed to be distanced from the Islamic faith.



Massoud Shadjareh, chairman of the Islamic Human Rights Commission, said: "The criminality of anyone should not be associated with their nationality, ethnicity or religion.

"That sort of association is totally unjust and xenophobic and can create a great injustice by promoting prejudice that could fuel further violence against innocent people. A criminal is a criminal, is a criminal, full stop."

The Muslim Council of Britain said it had been planning an inter-faith national demonstration in protest at the bombs on London's transport network last Thursday that killed at least 52 people.

news.bbc.co.uk...

- I suppose focusing in on the few making questionable or dumb statements is a lot more 'sexy' and provokes a lot more opportunity for some good old rage and sectarian comment than a little accuracy and proportion and recognising the actual truth of the situation; still where's the 'fun' in talking about that, huh?



posted on Jul, 30 2005 @ 05:45 PM
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I'd even love to see a COMPLETE government investigation that looks at an angle which doesn't start with a conclusion.

VERY well put. why do all of the people on this site who are in favor of the war on terror so self-righteous? the plain and simple fact is that dismissing an opinion because it doesnt agree with yours is ridiculous. no one is right all the time and no one on here knows what went down on 9/11.

"you never really know, cause the more you know the more you know that you dont know #"



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