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The Bible, are we looking at it from the right angle?

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posted on Jul, 27 2005 @ 02:33 PM
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Something that has been a thought of mine for some years, that I have never been bothered to write before, was just stirred up when reading what someone said in another post.

When we look at the Bible and particularly the prophecies, such as in Revelations, are we looking at it from the right perspective?

Not only is the KJ Bible we have in the UK slightly warped anway due to translation errors and the editing, but it was written from the perspective of people in the Middle East I believe? (I may be slightly wrong about the origins but the point is that it was not written by an Englishman, American, Frenchman, Italian, etc)

I find that I, and I believe most other people do as well, read it looking at it from our own perspective, however if you try and look at it from the perspective of the area of the world that it originates from, then it is a different story.

I just wondered how much of it changed relevence and in what way when you try and look at it from that angle instead.
Like implants, chip and PIN, swords in the sky etc. Maybe, according to trhe Bible, the western world is the devil or something.

I don't necessarily think that is true, I have other theories, including that 'God' whatever it/they/he/she is may be a bit of a control freak. We have already seen from the Bible that God makes mistakes and has a bit of a temper. Maybe 'God 'doesn't want us to develop too far incase we decide to come looking for a fight.

But that's another discussion.




posted on Jul, 27 2005 @ 02:38 PM
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Human arrogance is astounding...................


Perhaps you should pray for understanding of the bible.



posted on Jul, 27 2005 @ 02:54 PM
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I would but seeing as I guess I'm Pagen if anything, and believe in multiple deities it would seem hypocritical.

I don't dislike the bible and as I said it was just one theory not necessarily one that I believe, but a wise person is prepared to look at ALL possible angles - even those they do not like.

I don't 'pray' not like you probably do anyway and if God is real and as great as he/she/it is supposed to be it will understand and respect my true inner thoughts (which I don't publish). If it doesn't then it doesn't deserve my respect and it won't get it.



posted on Jul, 27 2005 @ 05:14 PM
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You are correct when you say a wise person should look at things from all angles.

You will always encounter resistance from christians when you talk about their bible. I have looked at the bible to an extent from an outside viewpoint like you are describing.

Take the forbidden notion of premarital sex. Christian viewpoint: it is wrong because god said so. Reality: Premarital sex may have been deemed wrong by people of that time for many reasons. Lets say you have a girlfriend or boyfriend. Do you really want to know about her previous sexual experiences? No. Not if you care about her. If you and your loved one were driving down the road, and he/she suddenly stated...hey I had sex on that parkbench a few years ago. Would you be happy? No. You may be able to deal with it, but no-one really wants that. If it was a perfect world, your mate would always be a virgin. Furthermore, there was a lack of contraception at the time. Children were the result. The list goes on. Combine that with the fact that marraige was often a business deal for the parents, and its tough to sell soiled meat if you know what I mean.

There are plenty of examples like this that if you look at it in deeper context there is more to gain.

My opinion? The bible is a bunch of nonsensical opinions edited and forged over time to construct the current view of christianity.



posted on Jul, 27 2005 @ 05:32 PM
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Should we bash the bible?

No, no by any means, but exposing its flaws is a most, to understand the state of mind of the people of the times when it was redacted.

The bible in our modern days, is seen as an inspirational book for the faithful, and a good book of moral ideas for society.

In the other hand is scrutinized by the unbeliever and debated to the point of almost dissect its pages.

At the end the bible has very nice stories, good teachings of human behavior, its considered a historical book to a point, and a literature book by its age.

But we most never forget that it was the work of man and by the hand of man and that it was not only one hand that put it together but many with different views, priorities and opinions of how to live in a time long ago from our modern time by people that has been death for a long time also.

Most people of the time in the new testament expected Jesus to be back in their life time, they never imagine that the world was to last this long.



posted on Jul, 27 2005 @ 05:38 PM
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God wrote the bible for you to see Him.

You mention Revelation and the mark. Dont try to out think God. He WANTS YOU TO KNOW what He meant.
A couple things. The mark is visible. You will be able to be ID'd by the mark. The mark may be electronic as well. We dont know.

There is another mark. God seals His own on their foreheads. This has a bearing on some of the plagues. This mark is visible to God at the least.

If God didnt mean what He said, then why didnt He say what He meant? Didnt He know you would be reading?
Yes.

So all we can do is take Him at His word.



posted on Jul, 27 2005 @ 05:44 PM
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Jake, you know that the book of revelations is a book that always has been taken with mixed feelings taking in consideration that the author was never prove to be the one they credited.

Revelations was added to the new statement after a very long consideration.

I for one don't really take it at hart, but is interesting neverless.



posted on Jul, 27 2005 @ 05:45 PM
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Bashing the bible is just a consequence of intelligence. Just because I think it is nonsensical ramblings does not mean I am wrong. Nor does it mean I am immoral, or a bad person in any way.

You stated that the bible was looked upon by the faithful as some sort of moral guide and inspirational book. You are quite wrong in that Marg. You seem intelligent. You should know that the christian base takes the bible to a word for word degree of accuracy. If you believe in the stories of the bible, you must believe in its direction. That it is the unfallable words of god himself.

Yet...people can find errors by disecting its pages. People devote their lives to this book, and disregard their own mind and common sense at times to do so. As a consequence, the advancement of humanity suffers. Knowledge as a whole is disrupted. This isn't just for christians by the way. Any religion who lets science go to the wayside for their scripture of choice is guilty.

Just an example. You stated that most of the people who were alive at the time of jesus expected the end times to be in their lifetime. Why? Because in the bible, Jesus himself told them so. So, even with what you have said, we find error in the bible.

[edit on 27-7-2005 by Sight2reality]



posted on Jul, 27 2005 @ 05:53 PM
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You have to understand that when it comes to faith, the faithful interpretations of the bible are never the same when it comes to personal preferences.

I am not Christian believer but I am fascinated by the bible writings after all they have become the staple and main course of religious believes in our nation.

The bible has become a tool for power and religion a way for political manipulation.

But even with all that is still a very fascinated book with many good moral teachings.

Now the way people used it and exploit the power withing is another story, and you can witness that power in the lives of the many Christians and religious believers.

Is not really the fault of the faithful but I will put it on the many leaders of the church, including politicians that has exploited its power over the people.



posted on Jul, 27 2005 @ 06:05 PM
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There are MANY problems with ANY translation of the Bible and that is dealing with the interperting the words themselves.

There are many ways to read the Bible, and the KJV - for all it's good intentions - is but a corruption of one way.

The Origional text can be read left to right, Right to left, In columns - upper left to lower right, Lower right to upper left and so on. Each way tells about Glorifying G-d, and is able to stand upon it's own as a series of books, when read in conjunction with other means of reading it further clarifies the preceeding and that is just the tip of the Iceburg.

Never heard about this concept before? Your not alone.
If you have heard about the Bible Code, then you know that they are constantly finding more and more within the code. Bible Code

When the researchers come to understand this, they will have solved the BC. - But they are content to plug words and phrases into their programs - si it may take a while before they figure it out.



posted on Jul, 27 2005 @ 06:12 PM
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Just a thought on bible code.

We to this day cannot fully translate all portions of the bible. Original texts are damged and untranslatable. If you look at direct translations, you will see brackets.

For example:

[steve ran after bob]

Those brackets occur VERY OFTEN!!!!!! Go ahead and look for yourself. They are placed where the interpretor was unable to translate the words due to damage of the paper, or poor understanding of the language.

Whats in the brackets? The interpretors opinion of what he thinks was to be written.

How in the world do you expect to be able to use this bible code? Not to mention that many of the claims of words and phrases derived from this "code" actually come from fully translated english versions of the bible, and not the original text anyway.

When you want to see something.....often times you will. Resulting in things like "bible code".



posted on Jul, 27 2005 @ 07:41 PM
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since they occur very often, perhaps a dozen examples from the bible... along with the reason we cant trust it would do better?
Im really not getting what your trying to say and so I cant address it



posted on Jul, 27 2005 @ 08:04 PM
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Originally posted by Sight2reality
We to this day cannot fully translate all portions of the bible. Original texts are damged and untranslatable. If you look at direct translations, you will see brackets.

Those brackets occur VERY OFTEN!!!!!! Go ahead and look for yourself. They are placed where the interpretor was unable to translate the words due to damage of the paper, or poor understanding of the language.


You make it sound like religion stopped cold, and had no existance until some partly decayed texts were discovered. - This concept is not true.

I should have been more clear on my part, My reference was 'The Holy Scriptures" in Hebrew (Part of the Old Testament) - These texts have been meticulously hand copied and examined by a Rabbi before they are released, ANY corruption - as insignificant as it may seem causes that page to be destroyed and another "Perfect" page made. Including malformed letters, paper imperfections etc. It has been this was from the start.

Sure, with the invention of the Printing press I am sure that the process has changed however the examination of the work would still be done with the up most care.

This is done partly out of reverence for the work as it came from G-d, and part because of the old curse upon anyone who adds or omits anything from this book.
--
Pertaining to the bracketts;

Normaly I would say that it sounds like you are refering to the Gnostic/Lost sea scroll Texts. However, I have seen those notations - they are the most concise estimation of what the translation would be.

Part of the difficulty translating from a language such as Hebrew to english is that one word of hebrew could take an entire page to explain - depending on surrounding letters. Each Hebrew letter is a story in itself.

These links - should be helpful.

An Example of What a single letter is:
www.psyche.com...

An Example of Translation
www.psyche.com...


(a note of interest - the New Testiment does not have the same Text-Code features as the Scriptures).



posted on Jul, 28 2005 @ 01:16 AM
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Originally posted by AgentSmith
When we look at the Bible and particularly the prophecies, such as in Revelations, are we looking at it from the right perspective?

Not only is the KJ Bible we have in the UK slightly warped anyway due to translation errors and the editing, but it was written from the perspective of people in the Middle East I believe? (I may be slightly wrong about the origins but the point is that it was not written by an Englishman, American, Frenchman, Italian, etc)

I find that I, and I believe most other people do as well, read it looking at it from our own perspective, however if you try and look at it from the perspective of the area of the world that it originates from, then it is a different story.


ah, the start of reasonable thought... critical, yet willing to be open to something that may not be popular or comfortable...
when has truth ever truly been the "popular" ideal?




Originally posted by AgentSmith
I just wondered how much of it changed relevance and in what way when you try and look at it from that angle instead.
Like implants, chip and PIN, swords in the sky etc. Maybe, according to the Bible, the western world is the devil or something.


christianity, having stemmed from judaism, is technically (at it's root) an eastern theology. therefore, things like chronology take a back seat to the ideas that the scripture is conveying. this in itself answers many poor, ignorant cries about the scriptures being contradictory. further and with emphasis, things can seem contradictory if not realized along with parallel concepts that detail out what is truly being said. for instance; "God does not repent." and yet we can easily find that "God repented that He created man." is God one that makes mistakes? does God fail? by no means! these seemingly contradictory things are nothing but a form of communication indicating certain ideals in God's dealing with man, not His actual will/dealings. for instance, God is described as being clothed. does the Creator actually have a tailor? so then, if these simple things have been raped by man's carnal thoughts, is it far-fetched that something incredibly spiritual and complex as the revelation would also be abused and destroyed?


Originally posted by AgentSmith
I don't necessarily think that is true, I have other theories, including that 'God' whatever it/they/he/she is may be a bit of a control freak.


what is it that any man has done so well that God owes anything to him? is it not God who created man? the Creator and Owner of all things will act according to His own good pleasure. if God creates and gives life, it is that life itself that is indebted to God. therefore, at the taking away/destruction of that life, there can be no injustice found except that that life had not been destroyed sooner (the last part of that is only to emphasize, not to detail doctrine).


Originally posted by AgentSmith
Maybe 'God 'doesn't want us to develop too far incase we decide to come looking for a fight.


Psa 2:1 Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?
Psa 2:2 The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, [saying],
Psa 2:3 Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us.
Psa 2:4 He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision.


i don't think that God is worried.

daved



posted on Jul, 28 2005 @ 07:27 AM
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Human arrogance is astounding...................

Perhaps you should pray for understanding of the bible.


That's what I like a good judgemental "Christian". Of course, coming from one who bows to the GOD Bush I would expect no less". Sending our soldiers to battle under false pretenses is always a "Christian" thing to do.



posted on Jul, 28 2005 @ 08:33 AM
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Dancer,

Honestly I am in no way saying that religion just popped out of existence as you describe.

However, I am saying that there are thousands upon thousands of examples in todays written bible of what I described. Thousands of untranslatable text's for whatever reason. You even have seen exactly what I am talking about.

My problem is not with the belief in a god, or even christianity per say. My probelm is the bible. My problem is with how christians believe in its words without question. It is a mindset. It starts with blind acceptance of what they are being told by preachers and pastors...without question. Followed by a word for word belief in a book that clearly by all accounts has been modified time and time again due to translation errors, and "better christian thinking".



posted on Jul, 28 2005 @ 08:50 AM
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Sight2reality,,

That is what “faith” is all about, faith is the blind belief that what you are told is the truth and you should trust it unconditional.

Christianity has manage to just do that, occurs is levels of faith between the believers, from the fundamentalist extremist to the more orthodox one or “liberal”

All religions are about faith, look what fundamentalist extremist are doing in the middle east, their blind faith let them believe that killing themselves will get them to haven.

Christianity was not different in another time an age, in their spread of the “faith” it was either you convert or die.

That is why Religions no only feed the believer but it can turn dangerous when is no control.

Many people will do what their religious leader asks them to do, and we have plenty of people that have done just that even dying because there are told to do so.

Faith has many meanings, but the most practice one is the belief on something or someone without any proof or logic.

That makes people vulnerable of the intentions of others.

In this world is always the ones that are born to lead and the ones that prefer to be followers.

And then you have the ones that question everything they are usualy call the "missguided"


[edit on 28-7-2005 by marg6043]



posted on Jul, 28 2005 @ 11:53 AM
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Originally posted by AgentSmith
When we look at the Bible and particularly the prophecies, such as in Revelations, are we looking at it from the right perspective?
No doubt! Excellent thread topic. Too bad there won't be much beneficial representation in the defense of the bible--as those who hold it so dear yet use it according to their own ideas of what it says won't stop for even a moment to consider what implications might be found in the point you are making.



Originally posted by Sight2reality
Bashing the bible is just a consequence of intelligence. Just because I think it is nonsensical ramblings does not mean I am wrong. Nor does it mean I am immoral, or a bad person in any way.
That's true--it doesn't mean any of those things. On the other hand, bashing the bible is not just a question of intelligence--I'll skip modesty and say that I am an above average person, who believes and understands the necessity of logic in all things. At the same time I also believe and understand the necessity of God. But I don't see the need to denounce any and all findings of science, because I believe and know there is a God. God is not about morality, contrary to what religion proclaims--morality is a product of man's need to justify his own actions and is directly produced by the institution of religion.
God is not moral, but He is perfectly just. His justice is such that we don't understand it so we invent morality in order to explain something which isn't in our comprehension.



You should know that the christian base takes the bible to a word for word degree of accuracy.
I'm not sure what you mean--as in christians believe that each word is accurate? If so, that's true--to a degree. Yet the words they trust are the words of their own language, translated (read: interpreted) by others following their own religious ideas and beliefs (not necessarily on purpose, but nevertheless...)
And when a part that is not clear is come to, instead of searching for the meaning as originally written (in Greek or Hebrew) they ask their religious leaders for the answers--those educated by those who follow their own beliefs and ideas, in theology schools and seminary.
The bible is accurate and 100% reliable--but that is not what most are essentially defending. And if they believed that fact, truly, and believed that God would show them His hidden things, as He says in the very bible they claim is truth, then they would have no need to ask other men what God said.




If you believe in the stories of the bible, you must believe in its direction. That it is the unfallable words of god himself.
This is true. And it's a true statement--I can attest to that. But in saying that, I sound like all the rest that say that. Oh well--that's neither here nor there. Direction taken is the true identification of a believer.




Yet...people can find errors by disecting its pages.
How true--but it's not a formaldehyde-soaked frog in a wax lined dish--it is God's word. Why dissect it? Who are we to dissect it? Rightly dividing is not dissecting. Dissection is self-direction.




People devote their lives to this book, and disregard their own mind and common sense at times to do so.
What they devote their lives to is the same self-pride they've always had--only now they can use the bible as justification, which it is not. If you don't read the bible with your common sense and the mind that God gave you, then you're a fool. God makes sense, and nonsense cannot understand Him.




Any religion who lets science go to the wayside for their scripture of choice is guilty.
I agree--I've always had a big interest of all areas of science. The world and it's composition is fascinating! And outer space as well. There is no end to the discovery of science. I have discovered that science and God truly go right well together--after all, if God created the world, and the world can be studied with science, then God Himself must be the supreme scientist. The christian population see no validity in this--and their own ideas are often so confused that they must reject all good lines of thinking in order to stand by their so-called truth. They do not do God any justice with their position, and this is where we end up.




Just an example. You stated that most of the people who were alive at the time of jesus expected the end times to be in their lifetime. Why? Because in the bible, Jesus himself told them so. So, even with what you have said, we find error in the bible.
No, He said in 'this generation.' Which, according to the original Greek, and the usage of the day this was written, could mean many things such as 'age' or 'duration.'

Example:

Matthew 1:1 The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.

This 'generation' is 'genesis' which means: nativity; figuratively nature: - generation, nature (-ral).

Nativity, as we know, has to do with being born.

Matthew 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

The 'generation' used in this verse, which often causes confusion, is 'genea' which means: a generation; by implication an age (the period or the persons): - age, generation, nation, time.

The words are related, but do not mean the same thing, according to the manner in which they were used in the day they were spoken and understood.

The age Christ spoke of is the age in which we still live--that after His first visitation, but before His return visit.

So, yes, my conclusion has been, for some time, that the perspective of almost the whole world in regard to the bible is not accurate. It is a worldly perspective, and God is not of this world, and He said neither were His people. So as long as thoughts follow the ways of the world's thinking, the bible will not be understood--and as a result, scorned by many due to the arrogant misrepresentation by christendom.

But all that's no problem for God. This is the way it is supposed to be--and so when we all get to the next age we'll not be missing the age we just left.

BTW--how many who profess the truth of the bible make sure to tell you that Christ died to save all men? It's in there, too--more than just once or twice.



posted on Jul, 28 2005 @ 12:01 PM
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Originally posted by AgentSmith
I would but seeing as I guess I'm Pagen if anything, and believe in multiple deities it would seem hypocritical.
A pagan with integrity--bet that gets stuck the craw of christendom!


I don't dislike the bible and as I said it was just one theory not necessarily one that I believe, but a wise person is prepared to look at ALL possible angles - even those they do not like.
I believe that, as well--a wise person is not a narrow minded person. Belief is not preconceived ideas, but rather a willingness to accept what might seem somewhat 'far out' or even impossible.


I don't 'pray' not like you probably do anyway and if God is real and as great as he/she/it is supposed to be it will understand and respect my true inner thoughts (which I don't publish). If it doesn't then it doesn't deserve my respect and it won't get it.
God is real and great (beyond earthly reputation) and your heart is known--and respected. God is 'no respector' of persons--which means He doesn't judge books by their covers like men do. He sees all hearts and that is what He respects--because there's no way to hide an evil heart nor one full of love.



posted on Jul, 28 2005 @ 03:51 PM
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Sight2reality
One Can of Worms getting opened up
Concider that when the Christian religion was spreading there were not a lot of educated people around, the Educated ones were the ones spreading the good news. As a result people would rely on the clergy as 'Wise men" and they did the teaching. Since they were G-d's representive here people did not question what they were being taught - they were happy to get taught anything. Critical thinking was not much of an option.

As a result the Clergy thought of people as sheep, to be educated so far - but not too far else they would question things. It was not until the Printing press made the Bible available to the masses that it was getting out. (Honestly, although every house has a copy, how many people have read it? - percentage wise)

So people formed their own opinions as to what it ment, (Ask anyone who has been in prison and they can rattle of a thousand names of cons who can regurgitate the entire Bible line for line) and if they knew the texts well enough they could easilly control people with their own interpertations of it. Regardless of how conveluted their own understanding was.

The whole concept of thought within religion is quite unsetteling to "Organised religion" for they are looking for followers. Be especially careful with Christian preachers - for a lot of them preach of a G-d that is not my G-d. Attributing features such as "all Knowing" If he is/was all knowing then why did he do somany things he repented for? If he knew what we humans were going to do - then why bother creating us?

You are correct to question EVERYTHING, There are a great deal of Christian preachers who really should not be allowed in a Chapel, let alone near the Pulpet. I have caught Cathaloc Priests mis-quoting, or not compleating a quote and they have been adaquately trained. There are many ways to interperate the Bible. From fugurative to hardline literalists - with them I have a small problem - The concept of the KJV being a perfect translation for one.

It was for these reasons, as well as the text in brackets that caused me to stay out of churches for a long time.

For years I tried to read the Bible but to no avail. I would get to the "Begot's" and couldn't get past it. Finnaly I decided that I would read the Bible as a normal novel and it worked. I was able to understand better what was being said and what was really going on., about then it was pointed out to me that:
a) The Bible is a Jewish/hebrew history book.
b)The Really Important stuff is what some refer to as the Books of Moses - the first 5 books.

The books following them are there to Glorify G-d, and to illistrate the benifits of having a strong Belief/faith in G-d, as well as what happens when the faith falters (Eg. Soloman). With these books, the story/ the moral of the story is what is important, not so much the precision of the story.

There are small problems with the book of Genisis - How many times did G-d create man? Who is "Our" - Ect. Genisis is (going by memory - not by notes) 10 seperate books, making things worse is that when they were transcribed they did not always get the chapter numbers in the correct places to properly discern a seperate book.

In the book of JOB - Why was G-d walking with Satan in the first place?
My really big question is why did G-d let satan con him in to messing with Job? and after G-d messed him up - why did he only replace what he took - he didn't give him a little extra for all the agrivation he caused him.

I don't have a problem with multiple dieties, My thought with that concept is that they do not act independently - they act as agents. Kind of like G-d subcontracting things out.

Some maintain that G-d is not currently here, and that we have been a constant source of befuddelment to him - that after several frustrations with humans he put the angels in charge of us - took 2 asprin and went to lay down for a while.

There are numerous books that were never Canonised for inclusion in the bible, some include the Apocriphia (?sp) found in the protestant bible. 2esdres complements Daniel. And the Gnostic Texts - that have incredible amounts of information in them.

One of the problems with Christianity is far too many Christians forget that Christ was an Orthidox Jew, and his teachings were based upon Jewish Culture and the "Old Testiment" - The Christians discard the OT, forget the culture of Christ and subscribe only to the "New Testiment" adopted/interperated to their own culture.

The New Testament has always mad me currious especially when one conciders that the first 4 books are effectively the same book - Ok, it's from slightly different perspectives but why wasn't one perspectibe enough?

With those ideas/concepts I can surely understand anyone questioning any translation of the Bible. I think the best point could be that there are some things that were without a doubt intended to remain pure and unadulterated - those being the Books of moses - The balance are for to allow one a better relationship with G-d. I have been thinking about the idea of learning Hebrew myself in order to get an understanding of G-d remotely equal to that of a close friend of mine (a Rabbi) - we have spent many a night drinking Coffee and discussing a multiplex of concepts regarding the G-d puzzle, and the corruptions of various translations - One night I was reading out of Genises and was interupted by him shaking his head saying "that explains a lot - no wonder there is such a confusion with the Christian sect." - seems the translators ->not understanding how hebrew reads omited over 50% of the texts.

Maybe I better stop for a while and let the critics in, This is starting to feel too long winded, and bringing in too many rabbit trails to chase down........

[edit on 7/28/2005 by dancer]




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