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CIA is kidnapping and flying suspects to Torture?

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posted on Jul, 27 2005 @ 02:01 PM
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This is a very interesting article:



You may not have heard the term "rendition," at least not the way the Central Intelligence Agency uses it. But renditions have become one of the most important secret weapons in the war on terror.

In recent years, well over 100 people have disappeared or been "rendered" all around the world. Witnesses tell the same story: masked men in an unmarked jet seize their target, cut off his clothes, put him in a blindfold and jumpsuit, tranquilize him and fly him away.

They're describing U.S. agents collaring terrorism suspects. Some notorious terrorists such as Khalid Sheikh Mohammad, the mastermind of 9/11, were rendered this way.

www.cbsnews.com...


This whole matter got me thinking, especially the way 60 minutes "tracked" possible CIA flights all over the world, using the internet for the most part.

I think it would be interesting for us to tackle something on a scale like that.

Anyway, if the CIA is doing this...their argument on if these tactics are legal is "talk to the lawyers." What do you think? Legal or not?




posted on Jul, 27 2005 @ 02:10 PM
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I dont have the links, but this has been covered here a few times.



posted on Jul, 27 2005 @ 02:12 PM
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this is a sensitive subject...

if it saves any lives, sure do it...

remember for most people:

it is better for 1 to die than 2...





posted on Jul, 27 2005 @ 02:12 PM
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Legal or not, Bill Clinton gave them the power to do it by executive order. If the president says it's OK, does that make it legal? Help me out on that one, I'm not American.

And it can only be applied to non-US citizens (although I think that might have changed under PA2, but I'd have to go through my notes and they're at home), so it doesn't seem to be a concern for the US courts. We can sue (see Maher Arar, Canadian) but no criminal charges can be laid, as far as I know.

I hope this thread doesn't die as fast as every other thread that mentions this subject....



posted on Jul, 27 2005 @ 02:19 PM
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Originally posted by skippytjc
I dont have the links, but this has been covered here a few times.


Ahhh, I must have missed them. I looked in that last few days because this CBS article is only a few days old. If it is a repeat...my bad.

Still, I thought it was awesome how they tracked possible CIA jets so easily.



posted on Jul, 27 2005 @ 02:21 PM
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What should we do with terror suspects caught red-handed with explosives?

What happens if they don't want to talk and demand an ACLU lawyer?

Perhaps we shoud serve them some tea and ask "pretty please"??


Get Real Zed, it sounds to me like the CIA is finally doing their job. If someone is planning a next 9/11 and the proof is solid, than they need to be tortured.

Maximus



posted on Jul, 27 2005 @ 02:27 PM
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It is perfectly legal (in the US) if it breaks no US law or statute. The President is the Chief Executive; he is responsible for enforcing US law. He cannot create law, nor can he break law, without facing impeachment and prosecution. Congress creates law, and the Supreme Court interprets (and more importantly) determines the constitutionalilty of the law.

Presidential executive orders are directives that he uses to enforce existing law, administer executive departments and functions, and guide and direct US foreign policy. PEOs must comply with US law, and cannot be unconstitutional.

As far as I am concerned, if our enemies have taken the gloves off, and refuse to play by the established rules of the civilized world, then why should we?



posted on Jul, 27 2005 @ 02:36 PM
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I have been on this Topic a Few times - apparently it has been missed by Lots of People.

Here is the Link to the Thread:

C.I.A. Expanding Terror Battle Under Guise of Charter Flights

Aboard Air C.I.A.

WAR: Air America II: The CIA's Ghost Civilian Airline: "Premier Executive Transport Service Inc"

[edit on 27/7/05 by Souljah]



posted on Jul, 27 2005 @ 02:42 PM
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Originally posted by Pyros
As far as I am concerned, if our enemies have taken the gloves off, and refuse to play by the established rules of the civilized world, then why should we?


Perhaps to show that "we" can be civilized, even when such civility is not shown to us? To prove that we won't lower ourselves to that level?

Bullying the bullies doesn't solve the problem - it just continues the cycle, proving to such terrorist entities that bullying is indeed an acceptable and viable tactic.

We'd be no better than they are.



posted on Jul, 27 2005 @ 02:48 PM
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Instead of typing the same thing I always do in rendition threads, I've decided to change it up a little bit.


If the USA was to hold these prisoners themselves and torture them instead of shipping them off to countries they condemn for human rights abuses and torture, I might have more understanding for the situation.

As it is, torture is being outsourced so that the US can continue to say it does not condone torture.



posted on Jul, 27 2005 @ 02:51 PM
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Originally posted by LA_Maximus
Get Real Zed, it sounds to me like the CIA is finally doing their job. If someone is planning a next 9/11 and the proof is solid, than they need to be tortured.


Well, I'm not sure anyone was caught with explosives in their hands in the story here...but if they were, I am pretty hardcore. Most people I know vote for "casual torture" or "humane torture" unless it involves their own family as a target.

I am more of a "do what it takes" type voter.


IF the proof is solid. Sounds to me like some of this was all done in an attempt to penetrate some cells. Kidnap someone and then for 5 months hold them and see who they know.



posted on Jul, 27 2005 @ 02:56 PM
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the ends justify the means.......


if we have to wear the white and hat and play by the rules, we lose.

I don't like it, its not "right", but we are dealing with an enemy that will bomb funerals, schools, use downs syndrome suicide bombers, and we have to adapt to a new set of rules.

its a jungle out there. kill or be killed.



posted on Jul, 27 2005 @ 02:57 PM
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More rendition threads....

Allies Resist America Taking Away Their Terrorism Suspects
TA-ANALYSIS: U.S. Government being sued by Syrian-Canadian

The Maher Arar one shows how you don't actually have to have done anything wrong to be rendered.



posted on Jul, 27 2005 @ 03:05 PM
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Here is another thread about these planes.

Mysterious aircraft landed in Norway? (by Northern Norway)

There were some media coverage on this in Denmark and Norway after the New York Times released the story. They found out they used norwegian and danish airports often. Norway protested (or at least complained), Denmark didn´t (just the media did).



posted on Jul, 27 2005 @ 03:15 PM
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Originally posted by Tinkleflower

Bullying the bullies doesn't solve the problem - it just continues the cycle,


Thats not what I learned on the schoolyard. Almost every fight Ive had was with bullies picking on little guys. If you let them get away with it..THAT is what continues the cycle.

You seem like a nice person, but sometimes violence is the only way to solve a problem when words fail.

Maximu§



posted on Jul, 27 2005 @ 03:20 PM
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Officials say publicly that they do not render suspects to countries where they will be tortured.

"We have an obligation not to render people to countries if we believe they would torture them," White House spokesman Scott McClellan told reporters Monday. "And we do - and we do get assurances on those matters."

But at the same time McClellan seemed at a loss to explain what other reason there might be for turning a suspect over to Uzbekistan.

"I'm not going to get into talking about specific intelligence matters," he said when questioned about the choice of Uzbekistan as a destination for rendition. "Those are classified matters, for good reason.


Source: Ex-CIA Lawyer Calls for Law on Rendition

I'm pretty sure it's illegal for the president's press secretary to lie as he did.

I can't paste the whole artcile (it's too long), or link to it (I got it from a paysite), but for those of you with access to a good library, one article I found is:

Dancing with the Scavenger's Daughter: Torture, Rendition & the United States, by James Park Taylor, in Montana Lawyer, June/July 2005.

Here's a quote from page 36, the best thing I could find to a summary:

"Renditions, in and of themselves, do not violate our obligations against refouler unless the individual is returned to a country known to practice torture. 'Extraordinary' renditions are completely off the books - they are done covertly and their existence is not acknowledged by our government. Extraordinary renditions are aimed directly at returning an individual to a country that practices torture, for the purpose of coercive interrogation. Extraordinary renditions have no legislative basis, and are unauthorized even by presidential directives. Nor do they appear to have begun with the present administration. Under the present administration, however, extraordinary renditions have been taken to a new level."

-koji K.

[edit on 27-7-2005 by koji_K]



posted on Jul, 27 2005 @ 03:25 PM
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Originally posted by koji_K
Nor do they appear to have begun with the present administration. Under the present administration, however, extraordinary renditions have been taken to a new level.

Clinton signed this in, but Bush has made good use of it.

Now, I don't want to hear any complaining that Clinton didn't do anything about terrorists any more.....


xu

posted on Jul, 27 2005 @ 03:28 PM
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Originally posted by Hellmutt
Here is another thread about these planes.

Mysterious aircraft landed in Norway? (by Northern Norway)

There were some media coverage on this in Denmark and Norway after the New York Times released the story. They found out they used norwegian and danish airports often. Norway protested (or at least complained), Denmark didn´t (just the media did).


thats the one, if you read through that thread you will see that, that plane was reported as missing, and actually appeared with a different tail number and used by C.I.A. and it has been spotted many times mostly mid-east and europe.




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