Originally posted by NeonHelmet
Ahh Nygdan! Hail and welcome 8)
Also he’s birthday? C’mon? It was celebrated thousands of years before as the REBIRTH of the SUN!
I'll agree that things like christmas, easter, lent, etc are clearly 'non-christian'. I'll also agree that its pretty obvious whats going on in
terms of there being a pagan shrine to a god of healing one century, and then a christain shrine to a Saint who miraculously healed people in
Its when we look at the 'passion play' that we have the 'hard core' of christianity (that and the 'son of god status' and virgin birth'). Like
you note, tammuz dies and ressurects. Indeed, lots of gods die and ressurect. Inanna herself is judge, stuck up on a big stick, dies unusually
quickly, then ressurects, freeing souls from hell nonetheless.
But I do question how much of it is direct borrowing from pagan religions and how much is just coincidental. The story of a god that dies for his
followers isn't really all that odd if you think about it. And we also know that people in those times were indeed crucified as a punishment by the
state, the worldly order, so in a sense jesus practically has to be crucified (of course he could've been beheaded, stoned, buried alive, etc), and
it seems like that might be a more reasonable origin for that part of it than it being a loaning from pagan religions. And regardless of how it got
there, the intrinisic power of the event fits well into an established motif in world religions. That
might be why christianity was so
appealing to the pagan world, but it doesn't strictly mean that it was lifted from it.
I think that most researchers into christianity will state that its origins are jewish, not pagan (tho apparently the reverse used to be the case.
The discoveries of things like the DSS are what tilted the scales torwards jewishness in the modern era).
First as priest kings of Egypt, Sumer and Babylon then as oracles and prophets of Greece and Rome, Jesuits and Vatican, Royal Bloodlines and
more priest, finally as presidents and bankers etc. etc.
I really think that more direct connections need to be made to say that egyptian preists and kings initiated greco-roman oracles and then the early
chruch fathers and then eventually the kings and queens of europe, and finally bankers. I mean, to say that there is a direct connection is a pretty
strong statement, it really requires a single cult that's been passed from adept to initiate for an immense period of time. There's also a somewhat
paradoxical problem of it having to change in forms from an egyptian religion into a fraternity with symbology centered around the art and science of
masonry, while at the same time preseving the symbols in such a way as to indicate that its an egpytian religion in the first place. It seems rather
unlikely and it really does seem more like it started off as a christian masonry guild, with a biblical legend about how it was founded, and that then
that was added to by philosophs who were invited in later, who made it more 'high falutin', bring in pythagoras and islamic shrines and egyptian
symbology. I mean, it seems like that is a better explanation for the mix of forms than to say that the egyptian stuff has managed to stay intact
over 4 millenia, but has been out of any egpytian context for nearly as long.
The bible consists of the New Testament and the old!
The solomonic legend is in the old testament tho. Hiram abif and King Hiram of tyre are taken from a biblical story, with the addition of hiram
abif's betrayal and murder.
A lot of their stories is about nations before that time
But I think that these stories were added to the 'core' of masonry, that is those old constitutions from the north of england, when the speculative
hoity toity types were invited in.
It might even be intersting to compare masonrys interpretations of these egyptian things (and even islamic things wrt the shriners) with the
understanding of them in the academic community of the time of their inception, as opposed to the modern understanding of them. Alas, that woudl
require a freemason who's also an academic in the field of egyptology and what not, and wouldn't be available to the public anyways.
build them all around the world in INDUS VALLEY and AMERICA etc
There is no evidence to contradict the idea that the meso-american pyramids and egyptian pyramids are independant inventions.
Actually the Free Masons can be traced back further! To the Order of St. John, Teutonic Knights, Knights Hospitaller and Knights Templars!
I'm not even so sure that those connections are all that strong. From what I understand, the idea is that the Knights Templar came into contact with
highly civilized and esoteric islamic secret societies during the crusades, usually the assasins or just the sufis in general or any such cult, the
idea being that they picked up their advanced technology (lost in europe, retained and advanced under the caliphs and sultans) and advanced philosophy
along with it. But there isn't any evidence that this infact happened, its an interesting theory, but I've never even see what the templars
beleived and what rituals they are even alleged to have that are at all similar to anything islamic, let alone specific to the assasins or sufis or
even the Unitarians (of the levant, but then again, their beleifs are something of a secret mystery also).
But even if
we say that the Templars did have an esoteric philosophy adapted from the assasins/sufis/etc, there doesn't seem to be much
evidence supporting a masonic-templar connection. I really think that the biggest blocks to this are the the templars were warrior-knights, why would
they ever make themselves day-labourers? And why would they change their secret rituals into the forms of day-labourers? And where were they between
the dissolution of the Templars by the Church and the first appearances of mason union constituions? As for other Crusader orders, the same applies
and furthermore the 'becoming stonemasons' problem isexacerbated (especially by their continued existence), and its really blocked by masonry first
appearing in england, rather than Malta or Prussia (for the hospitallars and teutonics respectivly).
It is isn’t it!
Damnit, don't be so agreeable, don't you know that you are supposed to pick and mud and throw it at other posters in this forum!
Sir Andrew Bertie: Grand Master of the Soverign Military Order of the Knights of Malta (he is a cousin of Queen Elizabeth II)
?! How'd the cousin of the anglican queen get into a Catholic Knightly Order??
i was just messing with you, poor attempt of humor! mybad
Only one way to solve this: