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WAR: Vandals Torch 20 U.S. Flags, Car

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posted on Jul, 26 2005 @ 11:33 PM
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But what good will come from putting them in prison? If they already hate the "Government" this will just add to the feeling of hate.

Prison allows people to make contacts, who can be a lot worse. It ruins their chances of reform (criminal record) and can teach them things we would rather they didn't know.

Making the mclean up for 6hrs, 5days a week for 5 years will do them a lot more harm. They wish to look big, if they go to prison it won't change their attitude so you might as well earn something from them. Make them of use and in turn save several thousand $ of tax payers money.




posted on Jul, 26 2005 @ 11:33 PM
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If you want to engage in eugenics, just say so, but prison is as good as the chemical cocktail for preventing injury to society.

Not to mention the fact that murdering legally, under current law, is more expensive than housing them for the rest of their natural life.

We need reform, one way or another. It just doesn't make sense the way things are now.



posted on Jul, 26 2005 @ 11:36 PM
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odium
That's what slave-holding societies did, and we've condemned them for it.

It's not a morally acceptable solution, given the current societal perception of right and wrong.

Prison seems to be the least morally repugnant solution to the problem of morally repugnant people.

I personally have little use for morality, but it seems to be a driving force in most countries.



posted on Jul, 26 2005 @ 11:43 PM
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There is a large difference though between cleaning the streets and working in asbestos mines.

Also these groups which argue you take liberty away by making them work are just naive in reality, it lowers re-offender rates - better for society. It earns the Nation money, instead of costing it - better for society. It can be quickly pushed through the courts, better for society.

The list goes on.

If people realised, that re-offender rates go down and the savings which that allows for Society as a whole (less Police work, etc) they might start to think differently. However, while people are not educated on such things they'll scream "Lock them up and save us."

Would it not be better to make him work those hours and pay for the damages, police work, fire services, etc?



posted on Jul, 27 2005 @ 12:34 AM
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Originally posted by ANOK
If you think about it, they were displaying the flag of the institution that caused the soldier to be killed...

Isn't that bad taste?

I'm pretty sure that's what the flag burners were thinking, if it wasn't something personal with the family.


Ahh, of course, the flag burners really had the families best interests at heart, like we did when we dispossessed the natives and put them on reserves and reservations.

I'm not an American (or even a US citizen, apologies to Canadians and Chileans!), as anyone familiar will know, but I will not accept people doing the same to the Australian flag. My grandfather's coffin was draped in the Australian flag when I carried it out of the church. I will not accept someone desecrating that memory, even if the cigarette ration he received during his service led him to take up smoking, which gave him emphysima, which killed him.

Public protest is an entirely different matter. If you have the courage of your convictions, show your face, that's why the law allows you to burn the flag.

If you are in dispute with the family, show your face, let everyone know your grievance.

As the first one doesn't apply and the second wasn't followed, I hope the author of this act has slunk back under their nice damp rock.

PFC Hines followed JFK's advice and chose to serve his nation, is this how his nation serves him?



posted on Jul, 27 2005 @ 12:48 AM
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Originally posted by GradyPhilpott
The death penalty is not a punishment. It is a guarantee that that individual will no longer pollute the environment with his acts or his seed.


Given how often judicial systems get it wrong the death penalty is nothing more than a guarantee that some innocent people will die.

You claim to be a freedom-loving American Grady, yet you support the actions of the government of the People's Republic of China.

To quote the West Wing: "Mr President, I'll give you all the justification you need not to carry out executions. ""Vengeance is Mine" sayeth the Lord."" Despite this, George W Bush, a self-described Christian, sanctioned more executions than any of the other 49 Governors and is now keen to use them in Federal cases.



posted on Jul, 27 2005 @ 01:24 AM
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The criminal law may not provide a satisfactory remedy here, but these people could be sued for infliction of emotional distress (as well as trashing the car) for every penny they have. Not the best solution perhaps, but it's something.

This is clearly not flag-burning as speech, this is flag-burning to inflict pain. I really cannot imagine what would drive people to commit such a senseless and morally despicable act. I can't say I agree with the death penalty for them, but I hope that one day they will look back on what they did with extreme shame. If the loved ones of the dead soldier were able to find these guys and beat them with a crowbar I would not say it was unjustified.

-koji K.



posted on Jul, 27 2005 @ 02:13 AM
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What was perpetrate upon the family of the fallen hero is called TERRORISM. The culprits need to be tried as TERRORISTS. Their act was clearly meant to instill fear and terror into the grieving family.

[edit on 7-27-2005 by groingrinder]



posted on Jul, 27 2005 @ 02:53 AM
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I'm sorry for the family's loss.

May I ask the significance of the twenty flags?



posted on Jul, 27 2005 @ 07:55 AM
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groingrinder, nearly every criminal act is terrorism if you use that definition.

How about you dig the found fathers up and we try them for terrorism?



posted on Jul, 27 2005 @ 08:27 AM
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I'd think the significance of the twenty flags is like a twenty-one gun salute (the coffin also had a flag) I might be wrong here, its just my conjecture and it might have been nothing more than twenty were available -via friends etc)

At any rate, it was heartening to see the 20 replaced with 200.

The perps didn't have any respect for the flag (just reading some of the comments here explains it, apathy) and for the life of me all I see coming from this is the downfall of America, but more importantly they had no respect for the fallen soldier.
Let the punishment fit the crime eh... send them to the war to learn that respect. Send them to the famileis of all who had fallen fighting for this country and let them personally apologize to each and every one. Send them to the Tomb of the Unkown soldier and stand aside from the honor guard for a tour. Let them feel the respect that those who serve feel for this countries flag.
I'm sorry, I feel too personally biased to even pass sound judgement in sentencing these punks... they don't qualify to stand in the ranks. ... they don't have the honor. And understand that I am a Canadian who came here years ago. I have respect for the colors of my country which I consider America!

Its doubtful we will ever know who did this but a law should be passed with HARSH penalties to discourage it from ever happening again.

[edit on 27-7-2005 by keybored]



posted on Jul, 27 2005 @ 09:14 AM
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Once caught these morons should be sent to "Hollywood" or PI for a little DI instruction in good citizenship.



posted on Jul, 27 2005 @ 09:57 AM
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Firstly, as an ex British soldier who served in the 1991 Iraq war, i extend all my sympathy to the greiving family of a loved Son Father and Husband. These are hard times that we face, with the threat not only in far flung places, but also on our own doorsteps. As i am now a civilian living the quiet life, i feel nothing but the greatest respect for those on the frontline, whether that be in my country or in a theatre of War. Only time will tell whether the right decisions have been made by our politicians. But until then the least we can do is give our full support to those who put their necks on the line in order that we can go about our daily buisness. Burning of Flags be that the 'Stars and Stripes' or the 'Union Flag' are tantamount to treason. WE ARE AT WAR . Therefore if the punishment should fit the crime ...... well ...... you got the Electric chair ...... use it .....



posted on Jul, 27 2005 @ 10:05 AM
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People honestly think training them to use weapons is a good idea?

If they have no love or respect for a Nation, giving them a weapon would be good? Here learn how to shoot your fellow American. :| :dw:



posted on Jul, 27 2005 @ 10:09 AM
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Originally posted by Odium
People honestly think training them to use weapons is a good idea?

If they have no love or respect for a Nation, giving them a weapon would be good? Here learn how to shoot your fellow American. :| :dw:


I promise you any of these morons that make it through "boot" will be a changed person. USMC boot camp is more that giving them a "weapon" to use. Especially it the DI's know why they are there.........



posted on Jul, 27 2005 @ 10:13 AM
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Not at all Bush, if that was the case the guy who joined up and got through boot camp would have never thrown a grenade into a tent if they could break them all.

Also, this is again a waste of money and a risk - which people should not be wanting to put soldiers into. If they care so little about America, what will stop them pulling the trigger on their own soldiers?

Work them doing public work, in groups, for several years till they pay off all of the damages they caused. If a majority of criminals knew they would have to pay for the police hours, damage done, etc, for minor crimes (which in respect this really is) it would cause children/young adults, to think twice. Especially after several of them have had to do it.

Really, would they look as "Bad ass" as they wish too if they were dressed up in a nice all in one jump suit ( I say go with bright pink) and having to clean the streets 5hrs a night, 5days a week till they pay for the damages they caused.



posted on Jul, 27 2005 @ 10:35 AM
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Originally posted by groingrinder
What was perpetrate upon the family of the fallen hero is called TERRORISM. The culprits need to be tried as TERRORISTS. Their act was clearly meant to instill fear and terror into the grieving family.

[edit on 7-27-2005 by groingrinder]


urmm... yeah, by that logic we should try all trick-or-treaters as terrorists, too...

-koji K.



posted on Jul, 27 2005 @ 11:50 AM
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urmm... yeah, by that logic we should try all trick-or-treaters as terrorists, too...


Aside from equating a childs pranks to a level of inflicting pain and misery upon someone who is already in pain and misery (you pull the wings off flies?) I have to ask you if you had ever served and already know the answer to that one.
"Lord, forgive them for they know not what they do"



posted on Jul, 27 2005 @ 12:25 PM
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Originally posted by Odium
Not at all Bush, if that was the case the guy who joined up and got through boot camp would have never thrown a grenade into a tent if they could break them all.



Ahh, that guy was ARMY not Marine. He should have been "outed" long before going to Iraq. But the army is too PC for that.

If he were a jarhead he would have made it to trial or past that first night. He would have had an "accident" during capture.



posted on Jul, 27 2005 @ 12:29 PM
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Bush43, would you be willing to takt the risk of putting someone who hates the Government and seems to have no care for the loss of a soldiers life into the military where he could do more harm to active soliders?



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