interesting idea. I'm just curious, can the eye on Jupiter be seen with the naked eye ?
if not, what type of magnification is required, and is there any reason to believe the ancients had that type of technology ?

.02

beforebc, there are about 41,952 members of ATS and Byrd is, as far as I know, the single most learned, erudite, and helpful member here.

Period.

Byrd's comments are rooted soundly on science. She is a true polymath, and has the academic credentials and field work to show for it. In the year I have been a regularly-posting member, I have never read any of her posts which were phony.

You, on the other hand, have been on this board for less than three months, have a total of 28 posts, have no curriculum vitae to present, insult one of the most valuable and trusted members of this forum, and, as far as I am concerned, no longer have a shred of credibility.

Google will even correct your spelling errors!

Hello syrinx high priest

You asked "Can the Eye of Horus be seen with the naked eye?"

That's an interesting question, and we're speaking of long ago. The short answer is "I don't know." That they saw it is clear, how they saw it is a mystery.

But this might help. When my wife and I lived in Michigan we were driving east on a rural road about 6 PM, the moon appeared right in front of us. The road was about 66 feet wide {tree line to tree line} and the moon spanned that whole distance. It's lower rim sat right on the road.

If ever we'd seen an apparition .. this was it. Neither of us can explain it, and unfortunately we didn't have a camera. The moon was in such splended detail that we could count the rocks on it's surface.

So can such things happen? Were ancient times {with their pure skies and zero light pollution} different?

I don't know .. and unfortunately traditionalists have destroyed or have pirated away all the ancient records.

I know this is no answer, but I don't have a better one.

bc
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Originally posted by beforebc
.. so I looked up your mythical Bast in each of them, and what I found was that that name does NOT exist in either.

Ummm...Bastet was the "cat goddess", very closely linked with Sehkmet. Each night, as the barge of Ra sailed through the underworld (thus, the sun being hidden from mortal view), Bastet was the only being who was capable of defeating Apothis & letting Ra's barge continue its journey to the upper world & become the dawn. In other words, Bastet was no more mythical than any other Egyptian deity...Actually, she's my personal favorite because of what I've learned about her.
Yes, I've been studying Egypt, it's history, religion & society for well over a decade & I can translate (at least some) heiroglyphs too. I've read the Book of the Dead. If you didn't see Bastet mentioned there, it's because it was written from a mortal's perspective on how the soul could bypass & be protected from the dangers of the underworld (Tuat) & reach paradise. But then again, Ra's nightly journey through the underworld is described in the Book of the Dead & Willam Budge's book, translated from the original Book of the Dead, even has an Appendix with reference's to Bastet & where the Book of the Dead describes her. BTW, it's formal name is "Book of Coming Forth By Day".
Besides...The Egyptians were more concerned about the constelation of Orion than they were of Jupiter.
And another point...I've been here at ATS as long as Byrd has...Look at the members list & check out the "Registered" dates. Byrd has many more posts than I do because I spent a couple of years of "inactivity" here.

Originally posted by beforebc
I don't know .. and unfortunately traditionalists have destroyed or have pirated away all the ancient records.

Ahhh, how much knowledge & philosophy was lost during the fires at the Library of Alexandria? That Library contained any & all information on all topics of knowledge that entered or passed through Egypt. Yes, I said "fires" in the plural...The Library burned no less than three times by the time it was actually destroyed.

[edit on 25-7-2005 by MidnightDStroyer]

Hello MidnightDStroyer,

you wrote} The Egyptians were more concerned about the constelation of Orion than they were of Jupiter.

bc} It is true that Orion was important, it is mentioned 25 times in the Pyramid Texts. But Orion was a transient, and with Sothis {Isis in one form or another} they clearly demonstrated that the Ancients understood Heliacal rising.

But on the otherhand Jupiter is mentioned 12 times {as Osiris the King} and many more times in reference to the Eye of Horus.

As we see here:

{§ 1806} O Osiris the King, the gods have knit together your face for you and Horus has given you his Eye, that you may see with it.

And yes the library of Alexandria .. and the library of Ashurbanipal.

bc
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Originally posted by beforebc
You asked "Can the Eye of Horus be seen with the naked eye?"...

That's an interesting question, and we're speaking of long ago. The short answer is "I don't know." That they saw it is clear, how they saw it is a mystery.

"That they saw it is clear"? You and the rest of the world differ on the meaning of "clear", apparently.

Of course the Red Spot cannot be seen by the naked eye, nor could it have been seen by the Egyptians, without a telescope. To suggest otherwise is utter foolishness.

Originally posted by beforebc
But this might help. When my wife and I lived in Michigan we were driving east on a rural road about 6 PM, the moon appeared right in front of us. The road was about 66 feet wide {tree line to tree line} and the moon spanned that whole distance. It's lower rim sat right on the road.

If ever we'd seen an apparition .. this was it. Neither of us can explain it, and unfortunately we didn't have a camera. The moon was in such splended detail that we could count the rocks on it's surface.

Well, all I can say to this anecdote is that I am very doubtful that anyone could "count the rocks" on the lunar surface, even with a powerful telescope.

Originally posted by beforebc
So can such things happen? Were ancient times {with their pure skies and zero light pollution} different? I don't know .. and unfortunately traditionalists have destroyed or have pirated away all the ancient records.

Typical of most pseudoscience proponents, bc here claims the very evidence he needs to support this ridiculous claim has been "destroyed or...pirated away" by traditionalist who, for some reason fear not only the truth but also fear the recognition, honors, wealth and career security that such evidence would no doubt bring them were they to present it to their peers.

Originally posted by beforebc
I know this is no answer, but I don't have a better one.
bc

bc is to be commended for offering at least this last statement.

Harte

Hello~
I've studied about Egypt and even payed a visit there. I was reading some of your comments and it interested me. I thought I'd post what I know all together.

For one thing, the Orion constellation was very important to the Egyptians. So important, it is believed the Pyramids of Giza are each lined up under neat each star in Orion's belt. Cool, huh?

As for Horus, Horus is the god of the sky and is represented by a Hawk's head. He is the son of Osiris and Isis, 2 of the most diplicted gods in Ancient Egypt. If you know the story, you know that Horus' uncle Seth killed Osiris.... The story goes that the eye of horus may represent the eye
he lost when he faught his uncle. It is also said that the left eye is Eye of Horus and is connected with the moon. When it's the right eye, it's the Eye of Ra, and associated with the sun.

The Egyptian religion is not considered Pagan really. It's a similar to Greek mythology. The Egyptians have Isis, the Greeks have Aphrodite. It's as simple as that. The ideas of religion were pasted on to many cultures, that eventually became monothist.

Some other things are the Book of the dead is actually better known as the "Papyrus of Ani", The book of the dead tells of resurrection, death, life, et cetra-it doesn't necessarly have to speak of all gods. So Bast the cat goddess, she does exist. She was very special because cats were worshipped by Egyptians and a very well liked pet. So liked-she was a god.

This is all I could remember for now, let me know what you guys think.

Originally posted by beforebc
Hello Harte and all,

Harte wrote} Typical of most pseudoscience proponents, bc here claims the very evidence {of ancient telescopes} he needs to support this ridiculous claim has been "destroyed or...pirated away

bc} You are the first person in the history of the world to deny that the antiquities of ancient Egypt were not "destroyed or...pirated away!"

How wonderful for you that you know where they are .. You must be very proud. The world would love to know!

Please tell us!

BBC,
You said that "Traditionalists" have "destroyed or...pirated away all of the ancient records" which I am assuming is the evidence you would need to support a theory that the eye of Horus was the great spot on Jupiter. You said nothing about ancient telescopes (which you have inserted into my statement) or even about antiquities. We are talking about what you termed "ancient records" here. You have changed the subject.

But since you (understandably) wish to change the subject, then first let me stipulate that yes, many things of value have been removed from Egypt. The vast majority of these items are stolen for their value as antiquities and are mostly artwork, or considered artwork by us, not necessarily by the ancients (walking sticks are today artwork.) No items that are "missing" in the absolute sense from Egypt were taken by
"traditionalists" as you call them. Any items taken from Egypt by archaeologists are still available for research. Thieves have stolen and melted down many gold objects and disassembled jewelry, etc. None of this affects your speculation about Jupiter in the least.

Second, the website you linked to not only shows a poor understanding of Egyptian mythology (as was pointed out above) but also is lazy with it's astronomy and physical science aspects. The author claims that Jupiter is a Brown Dwarf, for example, when any reference work on the internet or in any library will confirm that this is just a blatant falsehood.

Additionally, what reason is there to believe that the Red Spot even existed back in the early days of the Egyptian civilization? The spot is shrinking, the rate has been measured, it will only be around for a few hundred more years (that's an estimate of course.)

Exploration of ideas is honorable and worthy. Hanging on to bankrupt ideas to save face is neither.

Harte

Harte wrote} You said nothing about ancient telescopes (which you have inserted into my statement)

bc} WRONG!

You were quoting a post I wrote in response to syrinx high priest .. where she asked: {can the eye on Jupiter be seen with the naked eye ? if not, what type of magnification is required}

So that you don't have to look it's here --->posted: 25-7-2005 at 02:26 PM Post Number: 1561819 (post id: 1583712)

If you can't keep track of the posts {or what you even say} .. or you don't begin to use evidence over your continual conjecture .. I don't intend to respond. LAST TIME BYE

cs
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Before BC~
Your information is intriguing, but it doesn't convince me. I have several reasons to mention so:

1) The Egyptians didn't have such powerful telescopes to see something as far away as Jupiter-Even Venus looks like a star from here (Earth). They'd need a hubble telescope or something to see such a planet, let alone an "eye".

2) The Pyramid texts speak of some things, but it doesn't even mention a bodily circle, as for that, their language is often metaphorical or personified.
3) Your "eye of horus" is known as the Great Red Spot-The Great Red Spot is an anticyclonic storm on the planet Jupiter, 22° south of the equator; which has lasted at least 300 years. The storm is large enough to be visible through Earth-based telescopes. It was first observed either by Cassini or Hooke around 1665. I found this and thought it might be of use. So if I'm not mistaken, that would mean that the "eye" wouldn't have existed 2,000-4,000 yrs ago.

Hi d3vilishan9el

You} The Egyptians didn't have such powerful telescopes

bc} We don't really know this. It's true that none are in existence as such today, but there's superficial evidence that they did exist. For instance, records of the Lighthouse of Alexandria mention being able to see out into the Mediterranean. And you don't need a lighthouse if you can't use it.

You} the Pyramid Texts don't mention a bodily circle

bc} I don't know what that refers to.

You} The Great Red Spot is an anticyclonic storm on the planet Jupiter, 22° south of the equator; which has lasted at least 300 years.

bc} We don't know how long ago the Eye formed, however, that the Egyptians saw it .. is clear. The 22° actually varies, and if you plot the latitude out from a photograph it is ~ 39°. So IMO we have to go by what we see .. just as the Ancients did.

Traditional thought has done a lot to make skeptics of us all, and concepts like this take a long time to accept. But I came on to something in Revelations today that speaks of Atlantis {by another name} but Atlantis none the less.

So I'm busy digesting that one!

Thanks

bc
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