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Shoot To Kill Policy Correct?

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posted on Jul, 24 2005 @ 12:33 PM
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The current climate in the War against terrorism has risen to new heights in the domestic World. We have had, in the UK major attacks and also plenty of scares/false alarms.

The security forces of our nations have got their work cut out in trying to protect us all.We have our forces in Iraq and elsewhere, which leaves the police and secret service personnel to sort out the issues regarding the terrorists. This leads me onto the next paragraph.

The shooting of Jean Charles de Menezes by either the police or special forces proves how jittery as a nation we have become. He was shot because he ran away when asked to stop. The fact he ran away is open to speculation, but the fact is, and still remains that a 'shoot to kill' policy was enforced. I understand why they shoot to kill, so as not to detonate any suspected bomb wrapped around the suspect.

I was discussing this last night over a beer with some friends, when one of them said ' if a deaf person was running for the tube because he was late for work etc. would the security forces have shot him?' Obviously he wouldn't have heard any warning from them, and would have continued towards the tube train. OK, this was just a scenario, but it could happen.

Basically, is a 'shoot to kill' policy the right thing to do? I have my own opinions of this issue, but would be interested to hear others opinions of this.




posted on Jul, 24 2005 @ 12:42 PM
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hi Eddie,

yeah, i personally think there right to shoot to kill, aiming at the head, if the bombs hit by a bullet in a body shot.....its going to go tit's up.....

its an interesting and some what distressing idea of the deaf guy running for the train, i totally see your point but lets remember this guy jumped down escalators and vaulted a barrier...(apparentley)....even if he was deaf, he was acting super weird at a time when police are on the look out for anything even slightly suspicious.

regards.



posted on Jul, 24 2005 @ 12:49 PM
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Cheers
Like i said, it was just a scenario, but it could happen. Scary stuff though eh?

The guy who ran was allegedly acting suspicious. IE, he ran and vaulted as you said. Why do that if you have nothing to hide?

I do know that when they shoot to kill, they shoot to the head. Either through the mouth or the back of the neck shooting upwards to destroy the spinal nerve. This will undoubtedly stop any detonation of any explosive by the person with his finger on the pressle.



posted on Jul, 24 2005 @ 12:54 PM
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The mistaken London shooting was a tragedy, but I don't fault the police nor the shoot to kill policy. This is a war on terror and unfortunately there will be some collateral damage.

The best advice is not to run away from cops...



posted on Jul, 24 2005 @ 01:10 PM
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Edit,
went off topic,



[edit on 24-7-2005 by asala]



posted on Jul, 24 2005 @ 01:15 PM
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I didnt want this to get onto the shooting on Friday, though it does have some relevance to what i asked.

Is a 'shoot to kill policy' correct?



posted on Jul, 24 2005 @ 01:20 PM
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Originally posted by Bikereddie
Is a 'shoot to kill policy' correct?


I think it is, in the limited situation of a suspected terrorist on the mass transit system who could kill dozens of people.



posted on Jul, 24 2005 @ 01:26 PM
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Shoot to kill is very right. In this type of situation you shoot first and ask questions later. Sorry for the short post.



posted on Jul, 24 2005 @ 01:36 PM
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OK, shoot to kill is right in the current climate of things, but if you shoot to kill , how do you know you have killed the right person? After all, you cannot ask questions later once they are dead.

I suppose this is a very hard subject to be able to give a realistic answer to. Each of us has our own views on it.

It all goes back to 'how can you spot a terrorist?' No one can, even with evidence to back things up, mistakes can and will continue to happen, so do we carry on shooting people just in case they look like a terrorist or they have the wrong clothing on? Very very hard one to call.

I'm just glad that i don't have to make that decision.



posted on Jul, 24 2005 @ 01:42 PM
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Nice topic ed, as usual.

I think its needed, as one said, even a wounded terrorist is still a dangerours one.
But sometimes killing one everytime is stupid.
BTW
Can you send me a link to the post in your sig.



posted on Jul, 24 2005 @ 01:45 PM
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It should be "shoot to disable", "shoot to hurt", not "shoot to kill".

Death is final.

What if you had the wrong person, or there was confusion on your part. Shoot the perp's hands, shoot his legs out, don't take his life.



posted on Jul, 24 2005 @ 01:47 PM
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Originally posted by worldwatcher
It should be "shoot to disable", "shoot to hurt", not "shoot to kill".

Death is final.

What if you had the wrong person, or there was confusion on your part. Shoot the perp's hands, shoot his legs out, don't take his life.



The problem with this WW, is that a wounded terrorist can still set off a bomb by pressing a button or pulling a cord or whatever. Even bullets shot into a bomb could set it off. Therefore clear head shots to take out the person permanently seems logical.



posted on Jul, 24 2005 @ 01:48 PM
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Originally posted by worldwatcher
It should be "shoot to disable", "shoot to hurt", not "shoot to kill".

Death is final.

What if you had the wrong person, or there was confusion on your part. Shoot the perp's hands, shoot his legs out, don't take his life.


A wounded terrorist can still blow up, a wounded sniper can still take the shot, etc.



posted on Jul, 24 2005 @ 01:49 PM
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Originally posted by worldwatcher
What if you had the wrong person, or there was confusion on your part. Shoot the perp's hands, shoot his legs out, don't take his life.


The problem if he's a suicide bomber, and he's disabled he'll just blow himself which might still do some damage



posted on Jul, 24 2005 @ 01:53 PM
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i understand the logic, but i rather shoot a guy's hand, and jump him and take my chances, rather than have a death on my hands that could be unjustified. If i go with him, at least I'd be a hero.

did anyone think that perhaps that Brazillian dude probably didn't speak english? while we here are all informed about current events, there are many people who never watch or read news and know nothing about what is going in the world other than their daily lives.

If the Brits are going to have a shoot to kill policy, they need to make it a public campaign to inform everyone what is happening, not only on tv news and radio, but in flyers, posters etc... heavy campaigning before actually taking action. The situation there was definitely tragic and a shoot to kill policy will probably mean that more tragedies will occur.



posted on Jul, 24 2005 @ 01:54 PM
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Where you have a suspect with bombs strapped to his body, shooting to kill, and specifically head shots, make perfect sense.

If an unarmed/unstrapped suspect is merely running away, shoot to disable is the correct response.

The suspect that was shot was dresed suspiciously and did not respond to police orders. The police took the correct action ni that situation.

A deaf person running to get to work? I suppose it could happen.
But then that person would not be vaulting turnstiles, IMO.



posted on Jul, 24 2005 @ 01:57 PM
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Originally posted by Bikereddie
Basically, is a 'shoot to kill' policy the right thing to do? I have my own opinions of this issue, but would be interested to hear others opinions of this.


The mistake was in the term "shoot to kill." The "safe" term is "use of deadly force." It's a matter of semantics, but to the uninformed public (and the public is generally uniformed on such matters) "shoot to kill" is unacceptable. I always chuckle as someone suggests "just shoot them in the hand (or arm, or gun)" followed by the reality statement "it's not that easy to do” (it’s not), followed by a recent post where the poster claimed “any British cop could do that at 25m.” Right. (If anyone remembers where that post is, please link…It was precious
)

Military and police forces teach center of mass techniques first (aim for the center of the body, the largest, easiest place to hit). The next technique generally taught is the Mozambique Technique. After that, general techniques in overcoming cover, such as “skip shooting,” and “perceived position targeting.” The stuff of movies, precision targeting is only practiced by the most elite (military and civilian snipers, special operations, SWAT, the kind of people that will not be readily available on most incidents, there just aren’t enough of them). Yes, these individuals are capable of such techniques, but a departmental policy governs all armed officers, and should be phrased in the most acceptable, least liable terms.

Annie Oakley Monkeys, not just for trick shots anymore…



posted on Jul, 24 2005 @ 02:03 PM
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a little o/t but i thought British cops don't have guns and only their special operation forces carry weapons? a little clarification might help for me, and sorry for keeping tying the incident into your thread, but obviously it's relevant so it keeps coming back.



posted on Jul, 24 2005 @ 02:23 PM
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Originally posted by jsobecky
If an unarmed/unstrapped suspect is merely running away, shoot to disable is the correct response.



Originally posted by worldwatcher
It should be "shoot to disable", "shoot to hurt", not "shoot to kill".

Death is final.

What if you had the wrong person, or there was confusion on your part. Shoot the perp's hands, shoot his legs out, don't take his life.


I see that posts have overtaken mine. Could either of you explain the “real life” technique which would provide such a result?

First, divulge the tactical technique which would reliably facilitate your goal of “shoot to disable.” This technique must be universally applicable (all armed police must use it), it must be effective, with little risk to the surrounding citizenry.

Second, describe the physiological reliability of the “shoot to disable” technique, this should not be limited to wound ballistics, but should encompass the possibility of a perpetrator that is under the influence of drugs, or possibly has no regard for their own safety/preservation.

Before you think it’s easy to pull off such a technique, read this article:

www.cnn.com...

The Los Angeles County Sheriffs Department is known to have fairly high standards in regards to it’s officers firearm training. 120 rounds (fired from three to five meters) at an almost stationary target, and only four hits (plus a wounded deputy), guess it’s not so easy.



posted on Jul, 24 2005 @ 02:36 PM
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Other than from people who don't know much about firearms, I don't think I've ever heard of a shoot to wound policy. If you are justified in shooting someone, you are justified in killing them. I would hate to shoot someone in the leg, just to have them shoot me in the chest afterwards.

My personal policy is if I have to shoot someone, they will get at least two in the chest.









 
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