what is evil about freemasonry?

ok, i d honestly like to hear everyones opinions. what do you believe is bad about freemasonry, what do you believe is good about freemasonry. id also like to see any stories you have that have influenced your decision. for instance, if something happened to you or you witnessed something first hand. i dont want to hear about anything youve read. i like to see things that have happened to you or have influenced your opinion. i cant wait to see what everyone has.

i find absolutly nothing evil about freemasonry, or else i woulndt be a mason. so far the Grand lodge of michigan has raised a few million dollars for charity, nothing evil about helping out kids is there? i've made many GOOD friends who are upstanding, decent human beings. nothing evil about that either, is there? so as far as i've seen and i know....there's nothing wrong or evil with freemasonry at all.

Originally posted by Gipper21
for instance, if something happened to you or you witnessed something first hand. i dont want to hear about anything youve read. i like to see things that have happened to you or have influenced your opinion. i cant wait to see what everyone has.

A little word of advice, Brother: don't hold your breath. I've been on this forum for a while now, and I've been asking anti-masons to show me exactly WHY they feel the way they do about Freemasonry... not one ever has. They tell me things they've heard, things they "know", but they can never give me a solid, TRUE reason as to why they believe Freemasonry is bad. But I wish you good luck...

expect bombing toilets, and drugging them and making them watch rituals right seb? lol

just so you know, this has NEVER EVER EVER happened.

lol, maybe ill get lucky. i figure the anti's have to have stories. why else would they be so adamently against our organization.

Originally posted by Gipper21
lol, maybe ill get lucky. i figure the anti's have to have stories. why else would they be so adamently against our organization.

It just amazes me that a group of individuals could be SO ignorant as to not even want to consider FACTS and accepted truth! They want Freemasonry to be evil SO MUCH that they are willing to believe ANYTHING that supports this assertion!

The goals of masonry are good ones. Basically they just want to have fun and help people, and become better people themselves. I've only ever met one mason in real life, but he's a great guy, and if he is typical of masons then they are a very good people.

Other than baseless accusations, the only legitimate negative thing I have seen anyone say about masonry is that sometimes its members can allow it to be so time-consuming that it distracts from other things in their lives, like their families.

Obviously there are going to be some masons who are horrible people, but I think that is the exception rather than the norm, from what I have read. Masons can expel members from their organization, so the really horrible ones don't last.

Although I am getting into Masonry myself, I do believe that it's more than possible that there is more to it at higher levels that may be a bit darker.

The fact is, all Masons are asked if they believe in a higher power prior to acceptence. Nobody cares or wants to know who or what that higher power may be and in the lower levels of Masonry it really doesn't matter. However, it is my belief that as you progress in degrees your belief system comes more into play and like minded Bretheren flock together for whichever purpose they desire.

This is all merely speculation, but I've met Masons that claim to be witches and I've met Masons who are true God fearing men. I just think Masonry is a network of people with varied interests and beliefs and as you progress your personal beliefs are catered to and further developed.

Just my assumption based from what I've read and people I've met.

I'm still only an EA myself so I don't know anything concrete and anything I do know that I can't discuss won't be.

The best advice I can offer is that if your truly curious, make an effort to become a Mason and learn for yourself. It's the only true way to know.



[edit on 24-7-2005 by ElectricCrow]

Originally posted by ElectricCrow
Although I am getting into Masonry myself, I do believe that it's more than possible that there is more to it at higher levels that may be a bit darker.

Are you indeed a mason? It strikes me as odd that a mason wouldn't realize that there are NO "higher levels" in Freemasonry. You know the fraternity, you understand the way it's organized, so what makes you think there are secret upper levels? Tell me, as a mason, what do you consider "higher levels" to be? Higher degrees, like the Scottish? Official positions in a Grand Lodge?

However, it is my belief that as you progress in degrees your belief system comes more into play and like minded Bretheren flock together for whichever purpose they desire.

Actually it's the other way around (except for the Knights Templar. You must be a Christian to join). As you join the Scottish Rite, for example, you are exposed to a multitude of different beliefs, cultures, theologies and religions for ancient civilizations and foreign cultures. Your personal beliefs don't come into play at all simply because they are of no consequence to Freemasonry.

I just think Masonry is a network of people with varied interests and beliefs and as you progress your personal beliefs are catered to and further developed.

Yes but, as you should already know, personal spiritual development is and always has been a very personal thing within Freemasonry. We don't discuss these issues in lodge, and it is left up to ourselves to analyze, interpret and assimilate the lessons we are taught and apply them to our own beliefs.

The best advice I can offer is that if your truly curious, make an effort to become a Mason and learn for yourself. It's the only true way to know.

NOBODY should join Freemasonry simply because of curiosity. There is more than enough information available outside of the lodge, there is no need for someone to join just to scratch an itch. That is a terrible reason for someone to join and, if they make that reason public, they will be promptly denied membership.

NOBODY should join Freemasonry simply because of curiosity. There is more than enough information available outside of the lodge, there is no need for someone to join just to scratch an itch. That is a terrible reason for someone to join and, if they make that reason public, they will be promptly denied membership.

Could you clarify this? It's my understanding that curiosity is a word used to describe a desire to know, and since that would seem to be very much in line with masonic leanings, being denied membership because you had a thirst for knowledge..well that's just nonsensical to me.

Could you explain more perhaps?

Are you trying to indicate that gawkers and 'curiosity seekers' as it were, are not welcome? (a strictly enforced 'no tourists' policy might be a better way of saying it) That I can understand, but simply denying somebody access to membership because they have a desire to know more..that doesn't click with my pre-conceived notions.

Originally posted by WyrdeOne
Could you clarify this? It's my understanding that curiosity is a word used to describe a desire to know, and since that would seem to be very much in line with masonic leanings, being denied membership because you had a thirst for knowledge..well that's just nonsensical to me.

No, you misunderstood me. Someone who is curious about their own destiny, who desires to know themselves and improve themselves is perfectly fine. What we do not want are people who are curious about Freemasonry as a fraternity and its secrets. Childish curiosity, or "tourism" as you put it, is not going to help someone grow. They will probably just be disappointed and quit the Craft anyways.

Well lets make it simple. Im a mason in the memphis misraim rite, a rite which is versed more into the occult stuff than the scottish rite or the york rite, and by far.

The teachings themselve are not evil. They are a blend of oriental philosophy, jewish mysticism, christian mysticism, soufhism, egyptian mysticism, etc. What you will do with these teachings is up to you, and will make it ''good'' or ''Evil'' if you choose to go with the simple duality. However, There is actually some higher order in the masons. there is a ''beyond the 33° degree'' (memphis misraim rite goes to 96th degree, my grand master, a very good friend now, is a 95th degree, the highest ranked mason in north america) which is only open to those who have the ability and the potential to go there. And in those higher ranks, you WILL have to play with some dark forces. Reason is simple : you cannot achieve and master the light until you tamed the dark forces. I know it sound star wars and jedi, and thats exactly the symbolism lucas wanted to carry with this ''dark side'' concept. I cannot really go on whats going on beyond the 33rd degree, because i do not know everything yet and i have of course an oath of secrecy.

I also like to point out that 99% of masons wont go beyond the 18th degree. At that degree, (at least in my rite) there is a terrible sacrifice that you have to make in order to go on, and most of the ppl cannot even imagine doing that. If you are in the scottish rite and never had to do something like that in your lodge, its because the scottish rite is a pure operative rite. They are very good at doing rituals, but the teachings they receive are way too simplified. in other words, its crap. Most 3rd degrees in my lodge know a lot more occult and mystic related stuff than any 33rd degree in the scottish / york rite. In other words, they know nothing, or almost, of interest. The scottish rite is way too conservative to allow serious occult stuff in their teachings.

[edit on 24-7-2005 by moonchild]

Why don't you also mention the fact that the Memphis Rite is not a legally recognized masonic body in the United States?

EDIT:Sebatwerk beat me to it.


Before every Anti starts into the trash about degrees higher than the 33rd, remember, this lodge has NO ties to any AF&AM Grand Lodges, nor the UGLE. This is an Italian order, that later became French.

[edit on 24-7-2005 by wiggy]

Originally posted by wiggy
Before every Anti starts into the trash about degrees higher than the 33rd, remember, this lodge has NO ties to any AF&AM Grand Lodges, nor the UGLE. This is an Italian order, that later became French.

Correct. The Memphis Rite is highly irregular and has, from my understanding, had quite some problems with the Scottish Rite in the past. There is, apprently, some hostility from the Memphis Rite towards the Scottish Rite (which is obvious considering this individual "mason" 's post). The Memphis Rite lost its official recognition as a masonic body in the mid-1800s.

No real Freemason is allowed to be a member of this body.


[edit on 24-7-2005 by sebatwerk]

Originally posted by sebatwerk
Why don't you also mention the fact that the Memphis Rite is not a legally recognized masonic body in the United States?

Yup. You are right. We are not recognised in the UNITED STATES. I dont want to start a war, but do you think we give a damn about not being recognised by you and your lodge / rite? We are recognised everywhere else in the world though. Your conservatives way forbids you access to the material we are working with

Originally posted by wiggy
Before every Anti starts into the trash about degrees higher than the 33rd, remember, this lodge has NO ties to any AF&AM Grand Lodges, nor the UGLE. This is an Italian order, that later became French.

Then again its not because we are not recognised by these american masonic bodies that we do not exist. Check and organisation called CLIPSAS for exemple. youll see what i mean. And no the memphis misraim rite is not italian or french, it carries the old egyptian values and mystic tradition. The very same traditions napoleon brought back to france after his conquest because he got initiated to them, creating the ''great orient of france'' (maybe this is what you are referring to by saying its french). I also like to point out that our dear Alesteir Crowley was a mason in the memphis misraim institution also (95th at his time i believe, even if his big buddy albert pike wrote ritual and dogmas - the foundation of the modern scottish rite).

I dont want to start a war with scottish rites masons here. I just want to point out how my system works related to the topic at hand. For a profane, maybe the scottish rite look impressive and all, but for someone who is in it, there is a much better use of your time if you enter masonry to have access to occult stuff and all, not just basic symbolics and ritual knowledge.

Funny fact. on june 24th, an important date for masons, i went to new york (i live in canada) to participate in the celebrations and ceremonies. The funny part is me and my grand master were residing at the great lodge of new york temple, my grandmaster officiated the evening along with the GLNY grand master, side by side. We sat at the same table has him for the evening meal, and we had a very good time. pretty weird for ''unrecognized'' lodge, no? Especially when the GLNY 33rd degree grand master kneeled down before my GM to welcome him to his ''humble'' temple.

Originally posted by sebatwerk
Correct. The Memphis Rite is highly irregular and has, from my understanding, had quite some problems with the Scottish Rite in the past. There is, apprently, some hostility from the Memphis Rite towards the Scottish Rite (which is obvious considering this individual "mason" 's post). The Memphis Rite lost its official recognition as a masonic body in the mid-1800s.

No real Freemason is allowed to be a member of this body.


[edit on 24-7-2005 by sebatwerk]

Then again you are totally right on the hostility part, IN USA ONLY. However in montreal, canada where i live pretty much all rites are friends and collaborating with each other. Masonry in anglo-saxons countries is very dogmatic and is works in a different way than in the rest of the world.

At some point in time (forgot the date) the scottish rite decided to ''ignore'' and ''downplay'' the importance of memphis misraim rite in retaliation to the little politics mayhem that was going on between the two organisations.

As for the ''No normal masons are allowed to enter the memphis misraim rite'' thats a little pretentious and far fetched. There are 4 dominant rites on the planet plus a bunch of ''irregular'' ones. What makes yours the "one"? especially since your rite have been stripped down of all the interesting parts because of conservatism at the time? and the fact that in my rite we learn the EXACT SAME THING as you do, plus more?

Originally posted by moonchild
And no the memphis misraim rite is not italian or french, it carries the old egyptian values and mystic tradition.

It originated in France, much like the Scottish Rite did. So yes, it is French.

I also like to point out that our dear Alesteir Crowley was a mason in the memphis misraim institution also (95th at his time i believe, even if his big buddy albert pike wrote ritual and dogmas - the foundation of the modern scottish rite).

Aleister Crowley was not a regular mason, and was never able to gain recognition from the UGLE (like he so desperately wanted), as well as wasn't able to join the Scottish Rite (he also desperately wanted a seat in the supreme council). It does not speak well to your organization's recognition to state that Crowley was a member.

I dont want to start a war with scottish rites masons here. I just want to point out how my system works related to the topic at hand. For a profane, maybe the scottish rite look impressive and all, but for someone who is in it, there is a much better use of your time if you enter masonry to have access to occult stuff and all, not just basic symbolics and ritual knowledge.

Have you BEEN through the Scottish Rite? If not, then what are you talking about?

Funny fact. on june 24th, an important date for masons, i went to new york (i live in canada) to participate in the celebrations and ceremonies. The funny part is me and my grand master were residing at the great lodge of new york temple, my grandmaster officiated the evening along with the GLNY grand master, side by side. We sat at the same table has him for the evening meal, and we had a very good time. pretty weird for ''unrecognized'' lodge, no? Especially when the GLNY 33rd degree grand master kneeled down before my GM to welcome him to his ''humble'' temple.

But here's the important question: did you sit in open lodge with him? If not, nothing else matters. MANY masons are friendly, and even fraternal, with illegal masons. That says nothing about their official recognition, though.

Originally posted by sebatwerk
Correct. The Memphis Rite is highly irregular and has, from my understanding, had quite some problems with the Scottish Rite in the past. There is, apprently, some hostility from the Memphis Rite towards the Scottish Rite (which is obvious considering this individual "mason" 's post). The Memphis Rite lost its official recognition as a masonic body in the mid-1800s.

No real Freemason is allowed to be a member of this body.


[edit on 24-7-2005 by sebatwerk]

Then again you are totally right on the hostility part, IN USA ONLY. However in montreal, canada where i live pretty much all rites are friends and collaborating with each other. Masonry in anglo-saxons countries is very dogmatic and is works in a different way than in the rest of the world.

At some point in time (forgot the date) the scottish rite decided to ''ignore'' and ''downplay'' the importance of memphis misraim rite in retaliation to the little politics mayhem that was going on between the two organisations. So members have been told to ignore and not recognise as brothers members of the memphis misraim rite. One of the reason is the following : WE ACCEPT WOMEN IN OUR RITE. we didnt invent something stupid like the ''Eastern star'' to keep our wives / mistresses busy while we parade in mason apparel doing empty rituals. That was a major factor in growing hostility between the two clans. Conservatism again!

As for the ''No normal masons are allowed to enter the memphis misraim rite'' thats a little pretentious and far fetched. There are 4 dominant rites on the planet plus a bunch of ''irregular'' ones. What makes yours the "one"? especially since your rite have been stripped down of all the interesting parts because of conservatism at the time? and the fact that in my rite we learn the EXACT SAME THING as you do, plus more?

[edit on 25-7-2005 by moonchild]

LOL! Gosh, I love these threads!

Let me ask you a question, if there was something evil about the Masons, do you think they'd tell you?

Now, if you're asking a non-Mason (me), as they are a secret society, how am I supposed to know?

They all say that they are part of a good organization of men who do good things, and, as the ones I know (99%, that is) are very good men, I will believe them. As for me, I don't need to join a club that keeps secrets, there is nothing they can teach me about being a good human being that the KJV 1611 can't tell me, and if I joined, how could I pester them by asking, "Aw, come on; just one teeny-tiny secret! Please?!?"

If you are of any age to speak of, you know Masons. What is your opinion of the people that you know who are Masons? Base your opinion on that, not what people here tell you! You don't know these yahoos from Adam's house cat, and they congregate here in the Secret Society section to try and control any conversation about the Masons! Conspiracy, you might ask......