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NEWS: Scotland Yard Issues Statment Apologizing For Shooting

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posted on Jul, 24 2005 @ 05:57 AM
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**Still, I can't help but wonder why he was shot after being subdued.**

I can't find any reliable source that says he was shot AFTER being subdued????




posted on Jul, 24 2005 @ 06:05 AM
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Only one witness (incidentally the best one) describes the chap as falling to the floor as he rushed through the carriage doors and tripped, then (literally half a second after) the police came through after him and shot as he lay on the floor.

It doesn't actually say he was subdued:



I saw an Asian guy. He ran on to the train, he was hotly pursued by three plain clothes officers, one of them was wielding a black handgun.




As [the suspect] got onto the train I looked at his face, he looked sort of left and right, but he basically looked like a cornered rabbit, a cornered fox.

"He looked absolutely petrified and then he sort of tripped, but they were hotly pursuing him, [they] couldn't have been any more than two or three feet behind him at this time and he half tripped and was half pushed to the floor and the policeman nearest to me had the black automatic pistol in his left hand.

"He held it down to the guy and unloaded five shots into him.


I saw Tube man shot - eyewitness...From the BBC



posted on Jul, 24 2005 @ 06:34 AM
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The policies and corruptness of Brazilian authoritities is NOT a factor in this. If memory serves me right, I think I read that the man had been living in London for 3 years or something like that.....more than enough time to understand the difference between Brazilian cops and the London police.



posted on Jul, 24 2005 @ 06:59 AM
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Originally posted by SportyMB
The policies and corruptness of Brazilian authoritities is NOT a factor in this. If memory serves me right, I think I read that the man had been living in London for 3 years or something like that.....more than enough time to understand the difference between Brazilian cops and the London police.



Exactly. He was a trained electrician (by its nature he must have been intelligent) and has lived in England for 3 years, so it's not as if it is Mr Gonzales the Brazilian tourist is it?

The guy must have known about the heightened security, the attacks etc so was a complete fool to run from armed officers when challenged, whilst wearing unusual clothing for this time of year, into a an Underground station where all the attacks have taken place, only then to leap the barriers and charge at full speed towards a waiting commuter train.

What do you honestly expect the "police" (it was the SAS or MI5) NOT to shoot him?

I would have capped him myself in that position and only felt guilty for shooting a complete moron rather than finding out he wasn't a terrorist.

Sorry to sound harsh, but the guy committed suicide by cop, no two ways about it.

He will win the Darwin Award 2005 for sure.



posted on Jul, 24 2005 @ 07:45 AM
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The terrorist have indeed won.

Our society accepts shooting suspects in the head and justifies mistakes by blaming the innocent.

In the pursuit of good, we have embraced evil.



posted on Jul, 24 2005 @ 07:57 AM
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Our society accepts shooting suspects in the head and justifies mistakes by blaming the innocent.


No one is "justifying" or "accepting" it. It happened.

It happened because the "poor" chap ran away from armed police, in a high alert area, vaulted over the ticket barrier towards a crowd of people on a train at breakneck speed, failing to heed any warnings to stop.

Had he just turned around when first challenged and said "Yes officer?", he would have still been alive today.

To put it into context, imagine if you came home and found a guy stood next to your car, whose window has been smashed.

Bear in mind, that the area you live in has had a spate of car thefts recently.

This guy, however, has nothing to do with your car window being smashed and is in fact just having a look to see if he can help.

You do not know this and challenge the man as to what he is doing.

For some unknown reason, he bolts, runs down the road and vaults over a neigbours garden fence. You give chase and when you near him, he trips and you catch him.

You will give him a smack or two to make sure he isn't going to do to you what you think (and quite rightly too) he has done to your car.

Turns out he was innocent, but you still smacked him. But then, had he turned round and said at the beginning

"Hi there, some little git has smashed your car window. Can I help you at all?"

none of the above would have happened and everyone would have been happy bunnies.

See what I mean?



posted on Jul, 24 2005 @ 08:34 AM
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Originally posted by stumason

Shots, why would you possibly try and run from a large gang of armed men? You can outrun bullets now can you? Stop trying to villify the police/security services in this as the bloke was a moron.



I believe you misread what I stated here is the key phrase again

"My gut reaction would be that I would do the very same as of the officers did under those conditions and don't kid yourself you probably would have done the very same given those conditions.


As you can see I was taking the side of the law here and not the runner


Edit to add after reading the few remaining replies.

I too agree that his being a Brazilian that had been in England for 3 years should have known better.

Now editing my edit to add new information just heard on MSNBC

According to his parents, he SPOKE English very well, yet another reason why the police were justified, given this new fact.



[edit on 7/24/2005 by shots]



posted on Jul, 24 2005 @ 08:59 AM
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Originally posted by shots
Now what would you do if you were one of the officers that was following a suspect that ran directly to the tube and you suspected him of having a bomb and watched him jump a turnstile, run down the escalator, refused to stop and entered a train loaded with passengers?

Thats something I dont understand either shots. Why was he allowed to get as close to the Underground as he was? He was being tailed from his appartment.

As soon as they even thought he was going to get near a train station they should of stopped him or shot him. They were obviously sure enough of his intent from first impression (jacket/demeanor) so they should not of allowed the suspect to do what he did. That wasnt protecting the innocent. That was allowing him to get close to what they thought his target was.

Also if any of you havent been to London, just picture it as a heavily populated and cluttered city. You can EASILY make a dash from people with guns. Out running a bullet doesnt come into it, you can run into a crowd, into a shop, around a corner, ANYTHING. I'd take my chances and flee if I thought some criminal was chasing me with a firearm.

[edit on 24/7/05 by subz]



posted on Jul, 24 2005 @ 09:11 AM
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Originally posted by subz

Originally posted by shots
Now what would you do if you were one of the officers that was following a suspect that ran directly to the tube and you suspected him of having a bomb and watched him jump a turnstile, run down the escalator, refused to stop and entered a train loaded with passengers?

Thats something I dont understand either shots. Why was he allowed to get as close to the Underground as he was? He was being tailed from his appartment.



Subz I can only 2nd guess here while answering. My gut instinct says perhaps the police may have thought he might lead them to some other members of a cell. Just a guess on my part mind you.

Keep in mind he was under surveilance.

Face it, he was a fool for running since he spoke English very well, that is something no one knew for sure until I heard the parents on the news mention that.



posted on Jul, 24 2005 @ 09:34 AM
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Originally posted by stumason
No one is "justifying" or "accepting" it. It happened.


Many people are accepting it and justifying it.
There was a phone in poll on ITV news and 89% of people said that the police should shoot to kill suspect terrorists and applaud the action taken against this innocent man, even in light of the fact that he was innocent and completely unconnected to any crime, let alone terrorism.


The police responded appropriately in difficult circumstances to protect the public

Andrew, Chiswick, London



I back the police action 100% in this case.

Mark Garth, London



It is a disgrace that people are criticising the police. They are dealing with a national emergency and preventing the loss of further lives.

Simon, Cardiff, Wales


Source: news.bbc.co.uk...


Leading British Muslims last night backed the police's "shoot-to-kill" policy to tackle the threat of suicide bombers, despite a police admission that the man shot dead at Stockwell Tube station on Friday was not a terrorist.
. . .
The tactic was used against a suspected suicide attacker for the first time on Friday when a police officer shot dead a man on an Underground train at Stockwell, south London, firing five bullets into his head.
. . .
Under Operation Kratos, a senior officer is on standby 24 hours a day to authorise the deployment of armed squads to track and, where necessary, shoot suspected suicide bombers.

www.telegraph.co.uk.../news/2005/07/24/nshot124.xml&sSheet=/news/2005/07/24/ixnewstop.html


Jumping a ticket barrier should not be a crime punishable by death, regardless of the national security situation.
This situation was a direct result of gross incompetence from people who clearly don't possess the required mental stability to use firearms responsibly in public.



posted on Jul, 24 2005 @ 10:24 AM
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Well I can only speak for myself here when I say that I probably would of ran from the plain-clothed police. If I personally was confronted with average looking men with firearms on the streets of London I would of fled.

I guess I deserve a Darwin award, but then again. All those armed robbers now can just say they are a cop and do what they wish, more Darwin awards there too.



posted on Jul, 24 2005 @ 11:10 AM
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Originally posted by they see ALL
could this be why this happined like this:

because the police are "trigger happy" when it come to middle easterners???

we are seing this in NYC, in a way...

the police here are searching middle easterners more than anyone else...




Much as everyone hates the thought of profiling, the police are just not going to find that many bombs searching 90 year old grannies and blonde Norwegians. And searching them just to make it look like there is no profiling going on just means that the real terrorists would have a better chance of slipping through. People need to stop pretending that they don't know that 99.9% of this is being done by (radical) muslims.

Here's an example to show how ridiculous this whole profiling question is: Let's say a person robs a bank and people see him drive away in a blue car. The anti-profilers would say that police must not check out only the blue cars to try and find the robber (because innocent peole also drive blue cars), while people in favor of profiling would say that checking out red cars would be a waste of time and spread the police out thin enough to give the robber a better chance to escape. And so, while the police are being forced to intentionally look in the wrong place for the robber, another bank gets robbed by a guy driving a blue car.

Now change my example to fit what's happening in the real world. It is so logically simple ...




[edit on 7/24/2005 by centurion1211]



posted on Jul, 24 2005 @ 11:21 AM
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Well I can only speak for myself here when I say that I probably would of ran from the plain-clothed police. If I personally was confronted with average looking men with firearms on the streets of London I would of fled.


That being said, they told him they were police, flashed warrant cards and then he fled. Thats where he wins the Darwin Award.

The guy was confronted by a large group (some reports place the amount of police at 20+) of armed men, saying they were police, flashing warrant cards and in a public place.

He must have been total nut to even think he was being mugged and I think you are grasping at straws there to hint at the possibility of him fearing he was being mugged, due to his unfortunate upbringing in Brazil, rather than just doing what this man did when confronted by armed Police on Thurs (also completely innocent):





posted on Jul, 24 2005 @ 11:22 AM
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Originally posted by subz
Well I can only speak for myself here when I say that I probably would of ran from the plain-clothed police. If I personally was confronted with average looking men with firearms on the streets of London I would of fled.

I guess I deserve a Darwin award, but then again. All those armed robbers now can just say they are a cop and do what they wish, more Darwin awards there too.


WEll if you would run just as he did you too deserve the Darwin Award keep in mind reportedly the police did shout "Police Stop".

In fact I will give you two Awards and five pints of your favorite ale that will make things all good inside.

There don't you feel better already. Five Pints will to it everytime

As for your suggestion that criminals will now start making themselves sound like cops only indicates how paranoid you are. Chill out heres another five pints, now time to chill out and get back to reality.

Unfortuante as it is; this is something everyone is going to have to learn to live with like it or not. Changing times call for drastic measures at times like this.

BTW I think that perhaps when the police have reviewed this, London authorities may put in place measures like some US cities have. Once in pursuit they have a flip out bage in the pocket making it hard to mistake them in public. That way the other cops and the public can tell the bad guys from the good guys.



posted on Jul, 24 2005 @ 11:44 AM
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Originally posted by shots
WEll if you would run just as he did you too deserve the Darwin Award keep in mind reportedly the police did shout "Police Stop".

In fact I will give you two Awards and five pints of your favorite ale that will make things all good inside.

Newcastle Brown will make the Darwin award a pleasure



posted on Jul, 24 2005 @ 04:09 PM
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Originally posted by subz
Well I can only speak for myself here when I say that I probably would of ran from the plain-clothed police. If I personally was confronted with average looking men with firearms on the streets of London I would of fled.

I guess I deserve a Darwin award, but then again. All those armed robbers now can just say they are a cop and do what they wish, more Darwin awards there too.
Show me one case where 20 armed men robbed a person in the street.



posted on Jul, 24 2005 @ 04:12 PM
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There have been cases of drive by shootings and gang crime before though.

The area the guy lived in was really rough. A lot of "gang" members, exist within it. All it would take is for him to talk to the wrong person and in turn to get the view point that maybe these people were from another gang.

It is not un-heard of in the U.K. it has happened before in Birmingham and Wolverhampton.



posted on Jul, 24 2005 @ 04:44 PM
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Terminal Stupidity

If what I have seen regarding this incident is correct (and admittedly, it may not be), then this shooting was justified.

People can make asinine statements about jumping turnstyles not being a capital offense and offer other mindless, meaningless analogies that don't have any rational connection to this case, but the fact of the matter is that what this guy did indisputably resulted in his death.

He's dead, permanently. No do-overs. And he's dead because of what he did, which was to lead the police to reasonably suspect that he was about to detonate a bomb on a train and kill a bunch of people -- including the officers chasing him.

Whatever his reasons were for running from police and trying to escape by commuter train immediately after they were attacked by bombers, they weren't good enough.

The guy is dead, and unless some startling new evidence emerges to explain his extremely suspicious behavior, he got exactly what he deserved.

That's my opinion, yours may vary, which is fine.

But I suggest that those whose opinions vary from what very edgy security officials with guns are thinking watch themselves, because in London right now, that could prove to be a fatal mistake.

It's unfortunate, but this guy chose poorly, no matter what we or anyone else may think.



posted on Jul, 25 2005 @ 06:07 AM
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Majic, I disagree.

First of all, Scotland Yard has claimed "full responsibilty" for the shooting. That opens them up for prosecution for killing an innocent man.

The suspicious circumstances were he was wearing a jacket and came out of a apartment block that was being watched. Thats hardly "extremely" suspicious.

Also my only beef with this is that the police that challenged him were in plain clothes. If they were in full British police uniforms and he ran then I wouldnt say a thing, that really would be completely stupid and actually incriminating. BUT when your going to cross the line and go shoot-to-kill then you better ensure its completely thought out.

Letting plain-clothed officers with automatic weapons challenge a suspect with intentions of shooting-to-kill is leaving too much to chance. Thats unnacceptable when such an extreme policy is in effect.

If I was the CO of this operation and had these facts:

1. Man with large jacket leaving surveiled apartment
2. Man heading in general vacinity of tube station

I would of immediately called for uniformed police to approach and stop the man. If he then ran I'd of told them to shoot him as soon as they could.

Leaving it to plain clothed officers and until he actually got onto a train to kill him is just irresponsible and does not ensure the saftey of the public.

The fact that he was shot is not my beef, its the circumstances and not the decision.



posted on Jul, 25 2005 @ 06:10 AM
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BBC24 have confirmed that he was in the country illegally



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