Is the Raptor capable of this...

Well, it has became clear that the top-speed is noting even near 3.0 mach...

Originally posted by Harlequin
wan`t it IntelGirl that stated that the Raptor has a higher thrust to weight ratio than the balckbird? and the limiting factor in its pure speed was the fixed inlets ?

That's what I said - I also said that the Raptor could supercruise at or around 1.8M and top speed was somewhere in the 2.2M range.

I stick by that estimate.

And yes, aerodynamics are part of the equation too - but should one think that the F-15 has less drag than the F-22 - they are operating in sheer fantasy.

[edit on 2-8-2005 by intelgurl]

No, idea... sorry if it already has been posted...

i dont understand why the f22 lovers dont admit the true numbers, max M1.8, supercruiser M1.4, what is this, a kind of shame of the performance or only ignorance????? all fighters can reach higher numbers on special conditions or in a good day

the f18 have a limited supercruiser,and better T/w, but that dont make it faster than the mirage F1

the raptor was designed to induce lift, not to reduce drag, that helps in practical supersonic agility, because one thing is to reach 7gs at M1.2-1.3 something that the su27 also can do, but other thing is to sustain these gs, at supersonic speed the g limit decrease by structural problems, but the time in which you can hold these gs decrease greately by lift problems

[edit on 2-8-2005 by grunt2]

Originally posted by grunt2
i dont understand why the f22 lovers dont admit the true numbers, max M1.8, supercruiser M1.4, what is this, a kind of shame of the performance or only ignorance?????

I haven't a clue as to what you base your "facts" on.
Sure, the F-22 inspires pride and with pride comes outlandish numbers like Mach 3, etc.
But I have neither a shame for the performance nor an ignorance on the issue.

Your assertion that the F-22 maxes out in supercruise at M 1.4 goes against the most commonly known information on the subject.

The US Air Force itself says that the F-22 supercruises at M 1.5 +.
Edwards AFB - Supercruise

When former Air Force Chief of Staff Gen. Michael Ryan flew chase in an F-16 during an F-22 Raptor test mission, he described it like this:
"I’m in an F-16 with a -129 motor in it and this is the best F-16 the Air Force has. I take off and come back around. The F-22 starts rolling. I light the burner and I give the F-16 everything it can take. I try to keep it up to the Raptor but it goes straight up and starts walking away from me. We rolled over at about 30,000 feet and start accelerating out. He’s out at 1.6 Mach and I’m still back trying to catch up to him in full afterburner and he’s just in low power."
USAF Chief Of Staff Praises F-22 After Chase Flight At Edwards, Code One Magazine

Gen John Jumper, Air Force Chief of Staff - is quoted as saying he qualified in the Raptor and actually supercruised at Mach 1.7.
Gen. Jumper qualifies in F-22 - USAF Hilltop Times

F-22 pilot, Major Robert Garland has stated that the Raptor supercruises at Mach 2.0 at 60,000 feet.
F22: Most Advanced Warplane Uncloaked

And you say it supercruises at M 1.4...
Who are we to believe? Lockheed-Martin, the USAF, former Air Force Chief of Staff Gen. Michael Ryan, current Air Force Chief of Staff Gen. John Jumper and F-22 Pilot Major Robert Garland ... or your assertion?

Regarding your disputing all of the sources provided, please feel free to share any qualifications that you have which would warrant your words superceding the words of these other well-known sources.

Natalie~

[edit on 2-8-2005 by intelgurl]

You have voted intelgurl for the Way Above Top Secret award. You have two more votes this month.

Great answer!

ahhhh...Code One the lockheed advertising magazine

the official government numbers are M1.4 supercruiser , obviously you dont find that in the web, that is filled of corporative advertising and fans pages

the reports of the M1.58 supercruiser velocity are from the pre-production planes actually these machines can reach near max M2 at full power under special conditions, and that is the official number of the f22, but the production plane is different, it have higher aspect ratio, it have a M1.4 supercruiser, the people confuse both planes -or like to confuse-, but always you can reach more -or less- speed, depends how good is the day, there are reports of the f111 at M2.6-2.7, thats right, but depends how cold is the air if it have a favourable pressure and if actually the plane is making a dive flight

www.aeroflight.co.uk...

the data is based in the official numbers

in the fas aticle they put M1.5, well, maybe they are rounding, because the production speed is +M1.4, like the yf plane was +M1.5, also it says max M1.8

the max official speed of the f22 was M1.98, if i remember well

The USAF gives a LOWER top speed than their planes can actually reach. They don't round UP and give HIGHER speeds than they can reach. So I guess that makes all those generals and other pilots liars.

as posted by grunt2
..if I remember well.

Thats the whole heart of the problem there, grunt2, you rely on too much "if"....

the data is based in the official numbers

How many times does one need to inform you that the F-22 Raptor is still categorized as classified, and that much of the data that you are attributing to being "official numbers" are nothing but unofficial numbers for civilain consumption? The Raptors top speed and supercruise capabilities are still classified, among other attributes and abilities.

I find it highly ironic that you persist in not believing what those who have flown the aircraft have asserted, but simply resort to pulling information from a site and calling it official numbers. Hmm, you know that those are official numbers because......?





seekerof

Seekerof, please do a investigation, you will find that the max official mach achieved by the raptor in level flight isnt above M2, yes i dont remember well, but that because i prefer to read a good engienering book than popular mechanics

the pre production raptors are faster, isnt my fault if they increased the aspect ratio, the generals and pilots arent liers, the problem is that the fans are ignorants -not in offencive sense-

another example, the f86 wasnt designed for supersonic speed, but it reached M1 under special conditions

ahhhh the same "classified" tale



[edit on 2-8-2005 by grunt2]

as posted by grunt2
the pre production raptors are faster, isnt my fault if they increased the aspect ratio, the generals are pilots arent liers, the problem is that the fans are ignorants -not in offencive sense-

Ignorance plays no facet here unless of course you are referencing yourself--"not in offencive sense".
Maybe you might want to attempt reading what those generals are asserting, [five posts up made by intelgurl], as fact, mind you, and what us Raptor "fans", that "are ignorant," are quoting you wrong from?

as posted by grunt2
ahhhh the same "classified" tale

Ahhh, the same no source saying that the numbers you present are official. Please, at your earliest covenience, feel free to respond to the previously asked question pertaining to your reference to official:

as posted by seekerof
Hmm, you know that those are official numbers because......?

seekerof

LOL!
I'm almost speechless.
Here is someone who types as if english is their 2nd language, but by god he knows what the "official" numbers are on an American aircraft whose actual "official" numbers are still classified.

Interesting...

Originally posted by grunt2
... the generals and pilots arent liers, the problem is that the fans are ignorants

Ok, the generals and pilots are not liars - therefore what they are quoted as saying is the.... "Truth"?

And if they are telling the truth as can be deduced from your very own statement, would that not mean that the speeds that they have attributed to the Raptor's supercruising ability are true as well?

Either they are truth tellers or liars... which is it Grunt?

Still waiting on some of those credentials - I'd be glad to give you a list of mine in return.

[edit on 3-8-2005 by intelgurl]

Seekerof, the M1.4 is the official number of the goverment reports, try to investigate a little more, thats veeeeery public

look, a pilot saying that the plane can supercruiser at M2!!!!, what you think that there arent pilots with stupid atitude???, saying "This is the big boy, not only on the block but on the entire planet", tsss what a arrogant!!!

the report is for a pop tv channel i think, tss greate source

the problem is that you only believe what you want to believe, and dont have criteria

but there are worst believing that the raptor can reach M3

Either they are truth tellers or liars... which is it Grunt?

sorry lady, i think that the "ignorant" word was somewhat extreme.

the information and the interpretation depends in the source and the receptor, if you have a bad reception, you will end with a loooot of missinterpretations so there arent liers, the f22 can reach higher speed, yes, the f111??, yes, the mig 29??? yes, but all under favourable conditions, that dont mean the rule

[edit on 3-8-2005 by grunt2]

Originally posted by grunt2
Seekerof, the M1.4 is the official number of the goverment reports, try to investigate a little more, thats veeeeery public

Link and list those government sources, grunt2.
Investigate more? Huh? :shk:
I have spent 8 years working in the military and another 8 working for the government, in varying capacities, all the while, having and maintaining a number of secret-top secret security clearances to boot. Be assured, that the military nor the government never releases the official numbers for anything that is considered classified. The F-22 Raptor is no different, for it is still categorized as "classified". The numbers you are seeing and reading from FAS, GlobalSecurity.org, Lockheed Martin, the USAF, etc. are unofficial numbers given for civilain consumption, period.

look, a pilot saying that the plane can supercruiser at M2!!!!, what you think that there arent pilots with stupid atitude???, saying "This is the big boy, not only on the block but on the entire planet", tsss what a arrogant!!!

Your credentials are what exactly that makes me want to take your word over the word of those with actual flight time and the credentials to back what they are saying? "Arrogance" is when one is doing nothing but being argumentative, with nothing to back his own position.

the report is for a pop tv channel i think, tss greate source

the problem is that you only believe what you want to believe, and dont have criteria

The problem here is that quite frankly, your obsessed in talking out your rear, supporting nothing you say with anything remotely deemed "official".
Still waiting for you to explain how a UK site, who had no part in the development or deployment of the F-22, has what you deem as "official numbers." Those numbers are "official" because.....?!

but there are worst believing that the raptor can reach M3

No one contesting you here, mainly intelgurl or I, has asserted or claimed that 'we' believe the Raptor has a top speed of Mach 3 or can reach it.
Keep with the program here, k?





seekerof

wow , Seekerof you are james bond in person

well, atually the performance of all planes are classified, but the max "secret" speeds are more relationated with dive speed, a "lucky run", -cold air, and pressure stabiliation -not low pressure spaces in the air- etc...

sustained operative specifications are more public, like the M1.58 of the pre-prod f22, or the M2-1.9 -depends if have aerodevices- of the f16, or the max M2.5 of the f15, etc...and is +M1.4 for the production plane, but then the people say "no it canot be" "they are liers", but dont understand the diference between the pre and post production planes

i didnt notice that the page is from the UK, anyway what have to do here if is british???, the fas site i think that is american and they say that the speed is sc M1.5 with a max1.8, but sadly they arent specific which version is, i posted that because it says that there are different versions and are the specific performances of the production plane

so you realy believe that the f22 can reach M2 supercruiser?????, keep believing, greate is just the same as the M3 claims!!!




[edit on 3-8-2005 by grunt2]

Can I just point out that ALL these speeds can be 'correct', and that there isnt one single maximum speed that an aircraft is capable of.

Why? Loading, thats why. It entirely depends on if the aircraft had any payload, how much, how much fuel it had on board, what the weather conditions were like, whether the pilot had permission to risk the engines, etc etc.

Supercruise might top out at 1.6M with a full payload, with a mostly empty aircraft it might stretch to 2M, same for top speed with reheat. The MiG-25 had a great number of different top speeds it could reach, one of which caused engine damage.

Personally, due to the way reheat works, and the way supercruise engines work, I doubt that the maximum speed is much above the top supercruise speed as the engine is already burning all the oxygen in the air it breathes.

Wind speed and direction plays a significant part imo.

With a very strong tail wind, even a Mig-21 low on payload can supercruise.

Those wind speeds must be particularly high near those F-22 testing grounds (my speculation )

[edit on 3-8-2005 by Stealth Spy]

OK, I know that you all think that the Raptor is a very good plane, I think so too... But to believe that it's unvinsible is too much... Ok, nobody has said it, but you can read it between the lines... So in my opinion we shoul wait untill it gets into service, and then we can say if it's unwinsible or not...

Originally posted by Seekerof

as posted by grunt2
..if I remember well.

Thats the whole heart of the problem there, grunt2, you rely on too much "if"....

the data is based in the official numbers

How many times does one need to inform you that the F-22 Raptor is still categorized as classified, and that much of the data that you are attributing to being "official numbers" are nothing but unofficial numbers for civilain consumption? The Raptors top speed and supercruise capabilities are still classified, among other attributes and abilities.

I find it highly ironic that you persist in not believing what those who have flown the aircraft have asserted, but simply resort to pulling information from a site and calling it official numbers. Hmm, you know that those are official numbers because......?





seekerof

Now there we have a smart comment... Ok, seekerof we havent exactly been looking eye to eye on certain things, but that was a good post... it is absoulutely true that we can't know how fast the Raptor goes, we can only guess..