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Shotguns in the battlefield...

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posted on Jul, 23 2005 @ 06:49 AM
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I was just wondering a thing about shotguns... Does the army (in all countries that posess shotguns) use the shotgun only in "rade missions" or do they also use them in "the battlefield" even thoug the range is very low... I would also like to know how long a shotgun can fire... "sealtrident" once told me that the well-known M-4 could fire from 12-15 meters depending on the ammo... But does anybody know how long a shotgun can shoot at the most...?

happy if you can answer these qustions...




posted on Jul, 23 2005 @ 06:53 AM
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Shotguns aren't exactly a run of the mill weapon. At close range, there's nothing with more stopping power. At range, well, you might as well be spitting. You use it where it's useful, Finn. Shotguns are usually issued in environments where combat is expected to occur within about thirty feet. I believe they are in use in urban environments most commonly, but they were issued in Vietnam.

DE



posted on Jul, 23 2005 @ 07:00 AM
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Exactly... So doesn't that mean that nobody with "everything ok up in there" would choose a shotgun in longer range... However, the weapon is planned for urban terrain... But the range is often longer than the shot guns max range (even in urban terrain)



posted on Jul, 23 2005 @ 07:02 AM
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I would also like to know how long a shotgun can fire

I don't know the Max Effective range, however DoS and DoD
ranges have people shooting as far back as 25 meters with
both slug and 00...it could be longer in some cases. Shotguns are
great for short distances and clearing rooms, but they are not made
for long distances.

25 meters, IMO is the max that one would want to use a shotgun.



[edit on 23/7/2005 by SportyMB]



posted on Jul, 23 2005 @ 07:17 AM
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OK, thanks... I'll keep that in mind...



posted on Jul, 23 2005 @ 07:50 AM
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wow, wasted my 12-15m. I got 2 fine better shotguns and ammo.


[edit on 23-7-2005 by SEAL Trident]



posted on Jul, 23 2005 @ 09:07 AM
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Ok... lol...
So thanks to everybody... I'am now much smarter...



posted on Jul, 23 2005 @ 09:12 AM
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Interesting thread ... so despite taking out ducks they can't take out people at distance...

Do military /police shotguns have different shot to hunters?



posted on Jul, 23 2005 @ 09:23 AM
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Do military /police shotguns have different shot to hunters?

Im not much of a hunter, but I think there is something like
a "bird" shot or whatever, basically a bunch a little bb's that
spread out.



posted on Jul, 23 2005 @ 04:18 PM
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How far max do shotgun pellets normally fly, if fired horizontally?
And from what I understand, it's not that effective against good body armour
www.abovetopsecret.com...
(links are dead but they might come back)
The little pellets cannot penetrate armour as well as a rifle round. Even though there are many of them, quantity doesn't help in punching through body armour if each individual pellet is weak

Oh btw is there such thing as a rifle with a shotgun barrel attached underneath? I only saw this from some game (Delta Force 2) so I'm not sure if it's real or fictional

[edit on 23-7-2005 by Taishyou]



posted on Jul, 23 2005 @ 04:29 PM
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Bird hunting occurs from 10 to 40 yards, depending on shot size (larger shot size will extend your range). Bird shot ranges from BB size (same as a BB gun) to #12 (known as dust). The larger the size number, the smaller the ball diameter.

US Military uses 000 buck, or 0000 buck (the 0 is known as "ought", as in 4 ought buck), or Foster type slugs weighing up to 1 1/4oz. 3 and 4 ought buck can be used out to 100m, and slugs can be reliably aimed to 100m (they can travel well over 500m with deadly results on human targets). Sabot slugs were in the arms room for our use.

Police use normally use 3 & 4 ought buck, and #4 shot (different departments use whatever they deem most effcient). Special teams use a wide variety of custom ammo, including breaching rounds that tear away door hinges, tear gas, smoke, multi-rubber ball, bean-bag, and single rubber ball.



posted on Jul, 23 2005 @ 05:00 PM
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Originally posted by Netchicken
Do military /police shotguns have different shot to hunters?


The shotgun ammunition dictates application, below is a chart that shows the various sizes of pellets.



You would pick a shot size that is appropriate for the target size. #9 shot is good for small birds, 00 buckshot is good for large vermin.


Slugs are another option, and extend the range of a shotgun (also good for large vermin). Some examples below.



Shotgun gauges (boresize).



Maximum range (not effective) of various gauges and shot sizes.



Just to be complete, a diagram of a shotgun shell.




posted on Jul, 23 2005 @ 05:02 PM
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Good call Army.

The true value of a shotgun is its versatility; its limitation is the weight of the ammo. Most soldiers will have a standard load out of 200 rounds- that is VERY weight prohibitive for a shotgun tote-er.

I can hit a small paper plate with all 8 rounds out of my Mossberg at 100 yards- provided i use a slug. that is equiv to most people with a rifle.

Slugs will also defeat most body armor in existence.

Shot size was explained but I did not see any explanation of the choke. Shotguns can have several different chokes. Many shotguns have removable chokes. In simplest terms, a choke affects how close the "shot" stays packed together as it flies out of the end of the gun.

Your range depends on the size of the shot and the choke it has to do with "fluids theory". The smaller the shot (= bigger number) the less distance your load is going to travel due to the smaller inertia vs. surface area. Wind resistance really is the primary factor in limiting shot range.



posted on Jul, 23 2005 @ 05:03 PM
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During the '50s, the SAS used both Remington and Mossberg shotguns - in the jungle and urban scenarios.

After much trial and error, the 'Malaysian Load' was born. I believe it consisted of a standard 12 guage shell casing with 8 x .32 BBs with 00 & 000 Buckshot. The shotgun was fired with a 'full choke' and lethal out to 100 meters.

I have fired this as a 'standard' loadout and it indeed packs one hell of a punch - decimating 50 gallon oildrums filled with water, goes through car and truck doors and blows pieces off beeswax dummies like there was no tomorrow. Only 12 guage solid shot does more damage!



posted on Jul, 23 2005 @ 05:32 PM
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Mossberg didn't introduce their first pump gun, the 500, until 1962. I believe you meant the SAS used Winchesters.



posted on Jul, 23 2005 @ 05:33 PM
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Shotguns are used in law enforcement for building entry and "extraction."

Most pump actions have a 5 rd. magazine. The usual practice is to alternate one slug rd, followed by a shell of tripple aught buckshot, and then another slug and so on.

Someone asked about body armor. Loaded as above, one "hit" from the gun may or may not penetrate the armor, but it will compromise it; i.e, the next shot will go through.

I would expect a slug to penetrate IV-A (what cops use). Even if it did not penetrate, the perp will not be doing anything but lying on the ground and gasping for wind.

The thing about taking a shot from a shotgun is that ALL armor has chinks in it. one pellet in a kidney and you're done. A fleck under your face guard or behind an ear can be your last moment. And EVERY cop is most afraid of being shot with a shotgun in the guts, or even just stabbed there. Even the best surgeon will not find every nick in your colon, and just one tear in your "sausage" will lead to sepsis and death. Cops and robbers both know that.

Slugs will penetrate apartment doors and glass. They don't go through walls in richocet the way slugs do. So, they are actually commended as being more humane for bystanders. They are only deadly when you are standind Directly in front of one.

Most "entry" guns are sawn off to ~ 22 inches, and so are much less cumbersome than a long gun, but still packing more force than a pocket pistol.



posted on Jul, 23 2005 @ 05:48 PM
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Hey Army, I know what I meant - it just come out wrong.

They use Franchi, Mossberg, Orwens (Owens?) Mk 19s and all shorts of stuff - but in 40s and 50s, they used the 'Wingmaster' and, strange as it may seem, side by sides.



posted on Jul, 23 2005 @ 05:51 PM
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The millitary uses shotguns for door breaching I believe primarily and CQB.

They have special attachments for M16's and M4's that add a shotgun to the bottom of the rifle like seen in Predator.

The most well known is probably the Masterkey, a Remington 570 that fits under the rifle much like a M203 grenade launcher.

There is a new system too, but I can't quite rememeber the name.



posted on Jul, 23 2005 @ 05:54 PM
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Originally posted by Taishyou

Oh btw is there such thing as a rifle with a shotgun barrel attached underneath? I only saw this from some game (Delta Force 2) so I'm not sure if it's real or fictional

[edit on 23-7-2005 by Taishyou]


Yep, it's true. Just like in the game, it's called the "Masterkey" System. The most common 2 now a days r the Remington 870:

world.guns.ru...

And the new XM-26. Sense it's 4 spec ops anyways, they get 2 use it, even while it's in testing. Like always...


world.guns.ru...

It's a nice combo, but I'd still stick with my old trusty M4 and M203 System.



posted on Jul, 23 2005 @ 05:59 PM
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"The disadvantages of the combat shotguns are the limited effective range of fire (about 50-70 meters with standard buckshot, up to 100-150 meters with specially designed subcaliber or fleschette loadings)."

Quote: world.guns.ru...

r u serious?!?!?!?! crap!!! That's about the max range of a P90 with subcaliber or fleschette loadings!!!



I have a new opinion bout shotguns now.



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