Friendly advice to peaceful Muslims

I am very interested to learn what you mean by racial profiling. Please details

Originally posted by Frithabout a problem caused by western meddling in the Middle East, then racial profiling is the only peaceful option left open.

How wrong you are, they have been doing this to themselves since Muhammad died....It is not a Western Meddling that cause this at all, surely it contributed but it is not the root cause....




And also

You have voted keybored for the Way Above Top Secret award.

Great post!

Originally posted by edsinger
How wrong you are, they have been doing this to themselves since Muhammad died....It is not a Western Meddling that cause this at all, surely it contributed but it is not the root cause....

Who cares about the "root cause"? You just stated western meddling is a reason. So how am I wrong when you just typed that I was correct?

[edit on 21-7-2005 by Frith]

Originally posted by Frith

Originally posted by edsinger
How wrong you are, they have been doing this to themselves since Muhammad died....It is not a Western Meddling that cause this at all, surely it contributed but it is not the root cause....

Who cares about the "root cause"? You just stated western meddling is a reason. So how am I wrong when you just typed that I was correct?

[edit on 21-7-2005 by Frith]

You implied its all our fault. The Middle East was a tinderbox even to WWI and you imply its the USA's fault, that is like saying that the terrorism wouldnt have happened if the US didnt invade Iraq, which was AFTER many attacks on the UNited States by this enemy, some of which Saddam supported and we all know it.

Originally posted by backtoreality
specialasianx,

It seems that many take on this view. Rather than argue your points, which would not be difficult to do at all, let's get to the heart of the matter:

What would you propse Western governments do in response to terror attacks by radical Muslims?

A simple, straightforward question.

The question was not directed at me, but it is a good one and I'd like to take a stab.

First, racial profiling is already an acceptable technique in the probable cause calculus here in the U.S. I mentioned in a few other threads that I think it's certainly suitable to employ in the fight against terror.

Second, we need to recognize that terrorists are stateless creatures. They do not operate from a single location. We need (or rather, needed) to use our military forces more sparingly. Rather than seeing the terror problem as an unconventional military one, we need to recognize that terror is essentially a crime. It must be rooted out, can *only* be rooted out, in concert with the rest of the international community. We need more diplomatic intelligence sharing and extradition arrangements. We need more cross-border jurisdiction agreements. We need to cooperate with the police forces of other nations. And we need consensus in the justness of any military action we may pursue, to limit the amount of safe-havens terrorists can find.

Third, we need to focus less on 'possible doomsday scenarios' and more on the actual causes of terror itself. We need to undercut the grievances that a few radical extremists can use as a 'force multiplier,' gaining, if not full support, at least sympathy from huge amounts of normal people who only want a chance to make a better life for themselves. We can't issue blanket statements labelling countries as evil, we must instead provide *quiet* support for democratic movements in nations like Iran. This way we deny the extremists the ability to use the "American threat" to their advantage.

Fourth, we cannot fight terror without recognizing, as I said, the stateless nature it has. We must concentrate not only on cutting the support of the average person from the terrorists, but also on rooting out it's financial support, even if this means reassessing our relationships with such countries as Pakistan, Yemen, and Saudi Arabia.

Fifth, we need to reorganize our intelligence services into something more closely resembling MI5. We need a special service geared solely towards the collation and dissemination of terrorist-related intelligence. I think the US is taking steps in this direction, but we are exploring new ground here and the process is slow and awkward. We need more focus on the human side of intelligence gathering, rather than the technological side. This means more arabic speakers and more inflitration of terrorist groups on the ground, rather than relying on foreign groups to do this for us while we provide the electronic eavesdropping capability.

Well, that's my rap for now. Obviously this isn't exactly a white paper, it's just some basic musings.

-koji K.

Frith,

No need to expand upon your solutions any further. We can all clearly see that everything is the government's fault--including the terrorists themselves. Perhaps you should run for president, seeing as how you have all the answers and could single-handedly put an end to terrorist attacks worldwide with your more sympathetic view towards the oppressed, saddened terrorists.


[EDIT] to frith, with love

[edit on 22-7-2005 by backtoreality]

Originally posted by backtoreality
specialasianx,

It seems that many take on this view. Rather than argue your points, which would not be difficult to do at all, let's get to the heart of the matter:

What would you propse Western governments do in response to terror attacks by radical Muslims?

A simple, straightforward question.

What do western governments do in response to terror attacks by muslims... there are many things that can be done...

(1) They could do what the US did with the IRA and the Contras... fund them- We all know this is the wrong approach.

(2) Bomb some islamic countries hoping to either scare them into submission, or hoping a less stable 'democratic' government will calm the extremists down... many think this approach is the best... But judging from the recent Iraq experience many see it as merely fueling the cause.

(3) Find out why these extremists want to destroy the west... If you ask thm they'd say that the US and its allies interefere with the affairs of their countries too much... people dont like this... people get angry at this... people blow up other people over this...

I think option 3 is the best approach, although i know many will say that the terrorists do what they do because they hate our way of life... to tell you the truth, they dont care about our way of life, they care about theirs... and when their way of life is interfered with, they'll try to interfere with ours... in the best way they know... bombs. If these people had hi tech weaponary like the US does i'm sure they would wage a US style war (which incidently isnt terrorism even though more people in the world are concerned about how the US behaves than they are about how the terrorists behave)...

Disclaimer: When i use the term 'the US' i usually mean the Us and its allies... its just easier to use two letters.

In defense of the article though, if i knew of someone plannign an attack, i would speak out... but if i knew people with radical views, i wouldnt care because people have the right to say and think what they want without persecution... isnt that what your so called land of the free about?

specialasianx,

Option 3, the sympathic approach, would not yeild a situation any more beneficial to the US than the current situation we find ourselves in. It is not our "intereference" in their daily life that breeds this hate; that is a contributing factor, but the root of the cause is their extreme religious views towards those who are not Muslim. And this goes back much, much farther than 2001.

Also, if we go with Option 3, what about all those people living under the oppressive regime? Granted, this is not in the direct interest of the US (meaning, not something that the US would have to deal with inside its boarders), but it is something that the US feels is important to global stability.

Now for a reality check:
The people making the decisions in the government know much, much more about the overall situation than any of us could ever hope to know. Not only are they educated at the best universities in the world, but they have access to information that will remain classified for decades to come. As you said specialasianx, that does not mean that we do not have the right to dissagree with the decisions being made--no, we are lucky enough to be in a country where we do have that right. But when people attack the decisions of the government, who know much more than we do, then offer no real solutions, why should the rest of us listen to what they have to say?

Taking all of this into consideration, it seems to me atleast that these people are simply anti-government and are using the war as a platform to voice their hatred. If people are anti-government, then say so and voice your discontend from that point of view. Do not use the war, or any other issue as a veil to hide your true beliefs.

edsinger, excellent advice and we are already seing the reprucussions of their terrorist actions woth the retailiation against muslims. I really dont agree with targeting innocent muslims indescriminatly but since they do it, hey all is fair in love and war. anyway a mosque near where i live got a molotov through the window and wasnt burned to the ground. These types of things will only get worse, in fact perhaps we should exert more pressure on muslims in the US and UK to get our message accros and perhaps then they will take it upon themselves to try to stop these things.

Originally posted by XphilesPhananyway a mosque near where i live got a molotov through the window and wasnt burned to the ground. These types of things will only get worse, in fact perhaps we should exert more pressure on muslims in the US and UK to get our message accros and perhaps then they will take it upon themselves to try to stop these things.

Did I understand that correctly? You are suggesting people in the US and the UK need to attack mosques to intimidate Islam extremist terrorists?

I am saying we use the same tactics they are, no more of this "gloves on" bs. we take care of it before it gets worse, prety simple really. Dont be so shocked and appauled, im not saying kill people, im saying make their lives slightly less comfortable and perhaps they will take upon themselves to improve the situation.

Why exactly should the Muslim community be forced to "police" itself?
I never hear anyone suggesting the Jewish community police itself or the Christian community. I hate how people assume that Muslims live in a giant Hive Collective and know each others business. These people dont all go to the same mosques, every mosque is different the same way every church us different. If you were to go to a church one day and discover that they were preaching violent doctrien would you continue to go to that church? No you'd turn around and never come back which is exactly the same thing the Muslims do. Moderate Muslims do not mix socially with psycho ones anymore then any other religion does.

By the way I love how people act like moderate muslims never assist in the fight against terror. Who exactly do you think tells the government when a Mosque is preaching Radical Islam? Do you think the government has a radical Islam detector they look at in order to discover which mosques are worthy of attention? Do you think CIA Agent Joe Shmoe just uses his all american spider sense to gather the intel on which mosques are preaching terror? The only reason we know anything about radical Islam is because of moderate muslims.

I dont know if you realize this but all of the really subversive sermons are carried out in Arabic so people like you me and the CIA cant tell the difference between a speach about the pillars of Islam and a speach about killing the infidel. Its not like the FBI has thousands of translators lined up ready to infiltrate every mosque on the globe. Its only because a moderate muslim walks into the wrong mosque one day hears something scary and then drops dime that we have the faintest clue whats going on. Of course you never hear about that because it doesnt fit in with the whole scary muslim mystique certain people are trying to push on the public.

XphilesPhan, your logic is lost on me, and resembles that of neo-nazi's who spray paint swastikas on synagogs.

How is making Muslim people in the US and UK 'uncomfortable' going to cause Islamic extremist to improve the situation?

Did black people attack Churches so the KKK would stop burning them on crosses?

Get real buddy, you are suggesting people should fight terrorism with hate crimes.



[edit on 22/7/2005 by Umbrax]

This thread started out as friendly advice to peaceful Muslims, I hardly think intimidating them would achieve anything other than convincing them to join the enemy.
In all honesty, I think this war is unwinnable. Someone stated at the outset that it could go on for 30 years. It does make sense, how do you fight an enemy you don't know, can't see, isn't locatable and has been brought up in a polygamous society? They can knock them up faster than we can knock them off if you'll forgive my crassness.

Only way to end this war is to determine what it is they want in the first place... maybe start at Al Jazera and show them we do want to resolve this through peace.

Further, the cause of the war should be determined. I know it is a point the finger at the fanatic that was, at the least, WHAT got us into it, but we should know WHY we got into it, and I'm not talking 9/11,... the signs were there long before 9/11, in fact Joseph Bodanski wrote a book after the first WTC attack that specifically stated it would happen again. He wrote it would happen with planes. He wrote it would be Bin Laden. He was our counter-terrorism expert and everything he has said has come true.
In '99 he wrote another book, called Bin Laden.
What I'd like to know from our representatives is why it was allowed to happen in the first place (Patriot Act?)
The book I read, back around '93 called "Target America" had a forward in it, I believe it was from Representative Bill McCollum although I'd have to check that to make sure... in it he stated that the American people need to be made aware of the threat we faced.
Has anyone ever told the people we need to keep our eyes open (prior to 9/11) for anything? When that first plane hit, my wife told me she just heard that a plane had crashed into the WTC and my first remark was that was no accident. I knew, I'm sure the government knew too... why was it allowed to happen?
Only way to win this no-win war is to find out why its a war in the first place. I am not so naieve to think that the government doesn't have justified reasons on a need to know basis, and I do know that we had Bin Laden on our side during their war with Russia (Muja Hadeen sp?) (Sadam was with us at one point too) but some disclosure should be forth coming and not for accountability, but rather, for capability. We are simply incapable of fighting an idealogy that holds us as the enemy.
Changing that perception is the only way you'll sway the hearts of the heartless. It would probably mean forgive and forget and let them go about their cut-throat way (to each other) but at least we can get our focus back on track and not waste our time with the village idiot that would gladly backpack more misery into our lives.
You know, even I have a hard time turning the other cheek on this one... but unless we find out the why's and why nots, it is going to be business as usual with growing casualties.
I ask myself who am I kidding... if the government had its reasons to get us into this, they have an exit strategy as well... at what expense isn't entirely clear, perhaps we don't even want to know, but it will only be through dialogue with all, the people, the terrorists, and the governments that this will end.
Now do you seriously think that any government would disclose their heinous acts to its people just because they were asked? Its doubful, so it really looks like we are in this for the long haul. What worries me is that in Bodanski's books, he outlines which countries are against the US. We'd be far better to cut our losses now.
I guess you all see the futility of it all... we have --->