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Patriot Act Approved! House approved the measure 257-171.

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posted on Jul, 22 2005 @ 05:20 PM
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Mod Edit: to delete ALL CAPS post as this has been an ongoing problem for this member.

[edit on 22-7-2005 by kinglizard]




posted on Jul, 22 2005 @ 05:21 PM
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Originally posted by Amuk
[
Where would it stop for you? As long as the Republicans are the masters anyway?

You like the Ideas of cameras on the streets, why not in every room of every home? They would catch the bomb makers before they left the house so you can be safe to go to wal-mart.

How about a tracking device on EVERYONE that records everything we do and say? After all it would catch the mean old terrorists when they just TALK about building a bomb.

Would ANY freedom be too much to give away for you?


Look, Amuk, I get your 'slippery slope' argument. I've used it myself before regarding censorship and abortion. And if it appears that the PA is being used on innocent law-abiding citizens, I will be one of the first to rise up (with you?) against it. I will not, however, lie down and become an appeaser to try and survive either.

[edit on 7/22/2005 by centurion1211]



posted on Jul, 22 2005 @ 05:21 PM
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why are you SHOUTING @ socialtakeover??? please edit your post.

[edit on 7-22-2005 by worldwatcher]



posted on Jul, 22 2005 @ 05:22 PM
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Originally posted by centurion1211

Originally posted by launchpad
How many of your rights do you EXERCISE in a given day?


how about:

Right to have a warrent served stating specifically WHAT they are searching for

-or-

The right to a speedy trial --- by your peers?

-or-


The right to be informed why you being are detained? (been arrested lately- or pulled over for speeding?)

-or-


The right to have an attorney present when questioned?




Those are just a few and they ARE rights and they are very much infriged by the PA.



And which of those things would affect any law-abiding citizen?

Maybe terrorists and other criminals should be worried by the Patriot Act.

BTW, why is it now that you are so concerned?



Are you kidding? Or playing devils advocate? Are you REALLY that oblivious to abuse of powers? Did you EVER take a single civics class?????

What have I to fear? nothing- I won't go into the details but I certainly would not be in the position I was in professionally unless I was TOTALLY above reproach and been investigated with the finest comb they have.

Difference is there has to be something you believe in - and I mean REALLY believe in to face possible death to support it. I happen to believe in it.

I don’t suppose you saw the movie National Treasure and remember the line from Nicolas Cage that went something like, :Here is to treason- what our forefathers faced when they signed the declaration of independence” then he goes on to talk about WHAT would happen to them. They believed! That was how serious they were when they wrote the Constitution as well.

Do YOU have any values that you really hold halfway as dear as our forefathers did the Constitution or are you:

a. A domestic enemy better off on my bayonet
b. Blissfully a slave to an out of control legal system
c. Too lazy to care about how others are affected
d. All of the above



posted on Jul, 22 2005 @ 05:28 PM
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Originally posted by launchpad

Do YOU have any values that you really hold halfway as dear as our forefathers did the Constitution or are you:

a. A domestic enemy better off on my bayonet
b. Blissfully a slave to an out of control legal system
c. Too lazy to care about how others are affected
d. All of the above


Got an A in civics class (just missed the amendment that says you have the right to clinical paranoia). Also saw the movie, but realized it was after all just a Hollywood production and not real world. For that reason, I decided not to base any of my real world thinking on it.

You want to insult me, move it to U2U. I'll turn you into a mental pretzel.



posted on Jul, 22 2005 @ 05:32 PM
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I will not, however, lie down and become an appeaser to try and survive either.


That's precisely what you're doing. You, and the rest of the uninformed majority are willing to sell out your country to the corporate communists for a little reassurance.

History will not be so blind as you, thank Heavens.

I've got one word for you Centurion, Vichy. You do whatever you think you have to do to survive, you can count on your countrymen to do the same. Rest assured.



posted on Jul, 22 2005 @ 05:35 PM
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yeah, yeah- if you can't see the obvious dangers i doubt it- very highly. i was actually expecting you to say C. 'cause you just don't seem care about it until they haul you in and prove my point that unless each individual is directly affected they really just don't care and are fine with having right suspended.

Did you happen to catch the quote from BF????

It is attitudes like that thaqt make me want to just step out of the way and let the terrorists just have you- is my life REALLY worth some elses that could care less about what i am trying to protect????? Well the jury is still out but i'll tell you it ain't looking too good.



posted on Jul, 22 2005 @ 05:44 PM
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Originally posted by SOCIAL_TAKEOVER

Again by side stepping the question you do not answer the question.


Kinglizard already answered the question



Nazi-ism was bad for everyone, including those it did not affect.


According to you it should have been just fine for those that weren't gassed, after all THEIR rights weren't affected.



How in the hell can you compare Death camps with the Patriot act?


every journey starts with just a few steps, PA 1 was bad PA 2 was worse, what will PA 16 be like?



Are you dense man?


Naw..... just big boned



How many American death camps are there? How many trains with condemned people travel our railways. How many people are shot execution style then bulldozed into the ground?


none right now I believe but if they are allowed to hold people in secret without lawyers, without charges, and without any legal status you are planting the seeds for this in the future. I dont really care about the FOREIGN terrorists but when they start applying this to American citizens, I do.



Not in Amercia buddy so don't push your "AMERCIA IS A NEW NAZI STATE" BS around here!


Please point out where I have said this? Am u dense 2?





If the patriot act is so bad then move to IRAN - IRAQ - JORDAN - EGYPT - KUWAIT - AFGHANASTAN and write me when you get out of detention and if they don't behead you.


Or how about I stay here in the country I fought for just like my father and his father etc (all the way back to 1625) and try to get the law changed?

Or is that not allowed by God and king George in the Brave new USA?




The only people who are having any trouble with this are people who have committed an act that would have landed them in trouble even WITHOUT the patriot act!


My only concern about it is future abuses, so far only a couple Americans have been picked up on it, but only an idiot would not see where this could EASILY become a problem tommorow or five years from now. Even Ed thought 10 years was too long.



Give me EXAMPLES of personal rights that have been taken away....listen carefully...give EXAMPLE PLEASE!


Again KL gave you a list if you are having problems reading it get your mommy to help you with the big words



posted on Jul, 22 2005 @ 05:47 PM
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CAPS on going problem?...I have made 2 posts. You folks trying to deny ignorance but failing is what I would classify as an ongoing problem. Maybe its that you just don't agree with what I have to say and that is why my post was deleted. Wasn't even aware my caps lock was on. I know that my cap locks is the biggest issue faced by MODS on this site. So I do apologize.



posted on Jul, 22 2005 @ 05:48 PM
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Originally posted by WyrdeOne
I've got one word for you Centurion, Vichy.


Interesting that you mentioned Vichy. I assume the islamofascists would choose a more arabic-sounding name for what is created out of the ashes of this country after all you sheeple turn it over to them out of ignorance. If they end up hanging your daughter from a goal post because she showed a little too much skin will you be able to rest easy knowing that you stood up for the rights of these 'people' as they destroyed the country? That's what the British people are having to decide as we speak.

It's obvious that none of you get the big picture. While you are all out there worrying about how the koran (but not the Bible) is being treated, it is a fact that the federal government has been given the constitutional mandate and the power to protect our borders and us against all enemies - foreign and domestic. Individually we have little power to protect anything.



posted on Jul, 22 2005 @ 05:55 PM
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Originally posted by centurion1211
Come on Amuk. You're from a tough-guy state with a tough-guy avatar. You prefer to just sit there and try to do nothing to deal with this threat?


I kinda like the idea of shooting the bastards and keeping them from coming into the states to begin with.

Closing our borders, tighting immigration and killing OBL and friends would do more than 20 PAs, dont you think?

The cynic in me asks why none of this is even TRIED before they start wanting to see my papers.



posted on Jul, 22 2005 @ 06:09 PM
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I assume the islamofascists would choose a more arabic-sounding name for what is created out of the ashes of this country after all you sheeple turn it over to them out of ignorance.


Moving on...



If they end up hanging your daughter from a goal post because she showed a little too much skin will you be able to rest easy knowing that you stood up for the rights of these 'people' as they destroyed the country?


Talk about a slippery slope, you're basically contending that we need to give up our civil liberties to corporate entities so that our republic doesn't turn into a dictatorial islamic nightmare. This is a losing argument on every front.

"We need to kill America, or else it'll die!"

Spurious to say the least. You seem to be suffering from Boogeyman syndrome. I suggest you take two beers and a few philosophy courses, and call me in the morning.



It's obvious that none of you get the big picture.


I'm sorry, what? That's laughable. The people who support the PA are the ones who are very clearly lacking in their depth and clarity of vision.



While you are all out there worrying about how the koran (but not the Bible) is being treated,


I think all holy books are first and foremost disingenous deceptions. I also think you stumbled into the wrong conference room, and are now in the process of delivering your presentation on sub-saharan irrigation to a bunch of stunned adult film stars.



it is a fact that the federal government has been given the constitutional mandate and the power to protect our borders and us against all enemies - foreign and domestic.


That includes you.




Individually we have little power to protect anything.


Nonsense. We have as much power in this life as we take for ourselves.

When did the American Male become an endangered species?

How did the nanny state rise to such ridiculous popularity?



posted on Jul, 22 2005 @ 06:09 PM
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Originally posted by Amuk

I kinda like the idea of shooting the bastards and keeping them from coming into the states to begin with.

Closing our borders, tighting immigration and killing OBL and friends would do more than 20 PAs, dont you think?

The cynic in me asks why none of this is even TRIED before they start wanting to see my papers.


OK. I think we're starting to find some common ground here, as I totally agree with your last line above.

I also think this thread comes down to who do we trust (or distrust) more - islamofascists or our own countrymen serving in our government. To me, that choice is a no brainer - and sometimes life forces you to make a choice. Why does it sound like so many other Americans on this thread are more afraid of our own people who might abuse our rights than they are of those that are actually killing our people (and many others)? That makes absolutely no logical sense.

[edit on 7/22/2005 by centurion1211]



posted on Jul, 22 2005 @ 06:19 PM
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Originally posted by centurion1211
I also think this thread comes down to who do we trust (or distrust) more - islamofascists or our own countrymen serving in our government.


Thats a tough one


I just feel the PA is just a smokescreen that doesn't really help matters any.

What good is knowing what books I read or being able to hold me without charges going to do as long as we allow our "friends" to fund terrorism and hide terrorists? What good is tracking me going to do as long as our borders are open to anyone who wishes to sneak across?

I just dont think terrorism is the point behind the acts, mainly because they do almost NOTHING to stop it.

I hope I am wrong.



posted on Jul, 22 2005 @ 06:20 PM
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Interesting point about trust. I'm going to have to think about it for a while.

Never forget though that the ultimate goal of war is peace. There's no other sane reason to fight.

I think taking rights away from Americans is a bad idea. Better instead to give them some responsibilities back, so balance can be achieved.

The prison economy, and the war on drugs make me vehemently distrust our elected officials. If you can provide some reason to trust them, I'd love to hear it.

Did you know that the vast majority (90+%) of Americans believe their elected officials can't be trusted?

I'm done thinking, and I've decided it's a fallacious question. This is one of those "choose the lesser of two evils" situations. The only sensible option is to not play the game. We need officials we can trust, and a commitment to justice at home and abroad.

If someone wants to make war with America, they will lose. We have too many citizens, too many arms, and too much pride. We would wage a guerilla war the likes of which would make the viet cong blush.

But what we're doing now isn't a war. It's a bully routine.

We're attacking a group for the actions of its members. This is equivalent to punching out the minister when one of his parishoners parks in your spot.

Zero sum equation, yaknow? Everybody loses.

You want me to choose between islamofascists and democrofascists. I choose freedom, option C.



posted on Jul, 22 2005 @ 06:45 PM
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Originally posted by WyrdeOne

You want me to choose between islamofascists and democrofascists. I choose freedom, option C.


Dreamworlds are nice. The real world, not so nice.



posted on Jul, 22 2005 @ 06:48 PM
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Originally posted by centurion1211

I also think this thread comes down to who do we trust (or distrust) more - islamofascists or our own countrymen serving in our government.


Very good point.

The problem I see here is in looking at this issue as though it's a one-or-the-other situation. Either we have the Patriot Act OR we have terrorism. And that's just not true. The truth is, we are going to have terrorism whether we have the Patriot Act or not, and the Patriot Act has a huge potential for infringing on Americans' rights whether we have terrorism or not.They're not really related.

The Patriot Act isn't aimed toward the ' islamofascists'.

So we need to think about them as separate issues. We need to take some serious action to deal with terrorism and the threat of terrorism, but clamping down on the rights of American citizens does nothing to that end.

You guys are right. There's no reason for me or you to worry about the law searching my home because I'm not doing anything wrong. But neither am I a terrorist!. What does the Patriot Act do to actually cut down on terrorism?

While the borders are wide open and flapping (and this administration is actually encourageing that) the privacy rights of Americans are being taken away. It doesn't make sense. If the Patriot Act was actually aimed at terrorists instead of American citizens, I could understand your point.

It's like enacting a Firearms Search and Seizure Act because of an increase in murders in the US. Crazy! The only effective solution is to go after the criminals! Leave the citizens alone. Protect and maintain the rights of the citizenry!

Under the Firearms Search and Seizure Act, would you be as willing to say, "Yes, here's my gun. Guns are dangerous. Those criminals make it clear. We have to stop those criminals so I'll give up my gun." ?



posted on Jul, 22 2005 @ 07:11 PM
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(1) I would not be for the PA if we were not at war.
(2) I am all for racial profiling, sorry to the people of ME decent but the Poles haven't been bombing Wal-Marts. It is a functional need.
(3) If we are so worried about our rights being given up, you really need to look at what the PA is doing. The enemy has used our 'freedoms' to move freely and recruit and what not, now they can be called and maybe stopped.
(4) If you obey the law, you should have no troubles, keep in mind Congress is still voted in not appointed.
(5) I can use an analogy here, the victims of violent crime sometime do not have the same 'rights' that the perpetrators have. It is time to turn this around.
(6) Example, phone taps. You think they already would do it if they didn't have the legal right to do so? well now they do IF they see a need. You act suspicious and talk of certain things on the phone and the Cray's will pick it out and it will be researched.
(7) 911 was allowed to happen because we couldn't protect ourselves, well now we can somewhat and at least attempt to catch these bastards before they strike.
(8) I will not say it will not be abused as I am sure it will, but not in the big picture. They will not be rounding anyone up in cattle cars, we are to well armed for that.
(9) Instead of bitching about everything your government is doing, why don't you help them. Folks we are at war and I am afraid it will take a major attack to wake this nation up, even if then.


For example, if a WMD goes off, you can bet many will be snatched up very quick. The Government knows who they are but with some of the laws they way they are they can only watch.

The world is a nasty place and there are many AMERICANS that want to see this nation fall, well I want to do what I can to stop them, so the President and the Congress has my support in passing the PA, but as I said it should not be for 10 years, it should be only for a max of 3 and renewable if need be but only through a fresh vote.

As for this being a Nazi state, well when they come for the guns, then I will worry. As a matter of fact, many tulipwalkers want that now and they are the ones bitching most about the PA.....Go figure.



posted on Jul, 22 2005 @ 07:18 PM
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Well they voted to make the patriot act permanent. as in forever.

This is the most blantant attack on american freedom in history. It's dispicable and it's disgusting.

If there was ever a WMD used in this country, the law wouldn't matter because it would be total chaos in this country.

I believe, suporting the patriot act is anti american. Deal with it.



posted on Jul, 22 2005 @ 07:41 PM
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The bulk of the back-and-forth centered on language making permanent 14 of 16 provisions that had four-year sunset provisions under the original law, which Congress passed overwhelmingly after the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks.

The bill also includes 10-year extensions to the two other provisions set to expire on Dec. 31, one allowing roving wiretaps and another allowing searches of library and medical records.

"While the Patriot Act and other anti-terrorism initiatives have helped avert additional attacks on our soil, the threat has not receded," said Rep. James Sensenbrenner, R-Wis., chairman of the House Judiciary Committee.

LINK

I guess your right......

But..


Advocates argued that such powers already exist in criminal investigations so they should be expressly continued for terrorism investigations. They also cited safeguards in the bill, such as a requirement that a judge approve the records search.



Rep. Mike Rogers, R-Mich., a former FBI agent, recalled using such tools in gang and child molestation investigations.

"All we do in the Patriot Act is say, 'Look, if we can go after child molesters sitting in the library and bombers who we need to sneak-and-peek on a warrant, we ought to be able to go after terrorists,'" he said.



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