Patriot Act Approved! House approved the measure 257-171.

Anyone that wants to preserve the Constitution of the United States and the rights of the people will stand against the Patriot Act. How does it erode the constitution? Please read the ACLU’s Fact Sheet below. No more checks and balances.

Hello Big Brother…

• Making it easier for the government to initiate surveillance and wiretapping of U.S. citizens under the authority of the shadowy, top-secret Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court. (Sections 101, 102 and 107)
  
• Permitting the government, under certain circumstances, to bypass the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court altogether and conduct warrantless wiretaps and searches. (Sections 103 and 104)
  
• Sheltering federal agents engaged in illegal surveillance without a court order from criminal prosecution if they are following orders of high Executive Branch officials. (Section 106)
  
• Creating a new category of “domestic security surveillance” that permits electronic eavesdropping of entirely domestic activity under looser standards than are provided for ordinary criminal surveillance under Title III. (Section 122)
  
• Using an overbroad definition of terrorism that could cover some protest tactics such as those used by Operation Rescue or protesters at Vieques Island, Puerto Rico as a new predicate for criminal wiretapping and other electronic surveillance. (Sections 120 and 121)
  
• Providing for general surveillance orders covering multiple functions of high tech devices, and by further expanding pen register and trap and trace authority for intelligence surveillance of United States citizens and lawful permanent residents. (Sections 107 and 124)
  
• Creating a new, separate crime of using encryption technology that could add five years to any sentence for crimes committed with a computer. (Section 404)
  
• Expanding nationwide search warrants so they do not have to meet even the broad definition of terrorism in the USA PATRIOT Act. (Section 125)
  
• Giving the government secret access to credit reports without consent and without judicial process. (Section 126)
  
• Enhancing the government’s ability to obtain sensitive information without prior judicial approval by creating administrative subpoenas and providing new penalties for failure to comply with written demands for records. (Sections 128 and 129)
  
• Allowing for the sampling and cataloguing of innocent Americans’ genetic information without court order and without consent. (Sections 301-306)
  
  
• Permitting, without any connection to anti-terrorism efforts, sensitive personal information about U.S. citizens to be shared with local and state law enforcement. (Section 311)
  
• Terminating court-approved limits on police spying, which were initially put in place to prevent McCarthy-style law enforcement persecution based on political or religious affiliation. (Section 312)
  
• Permitting searches, wiretaps and surveillance of United States citizens on behalf of foreign governments – including dictatorships and human rights abusers – in the absence of Senate-approved treaties. (Sections 321-22)

Diminishes public accountability by increasing government secrecy; specifically, by

• Authorizing secret arrests in immigration and other cases, such as material witness warrants, where the detained person is not criminally charged. (Section 201)
  
• Threatening public health by severely restricting access to crucial information about environmental health risks posed by facilities that use dangerous chemicals. (Section 202)
  
• Harming fair trial rights for American citizens and other defendants by limiting defense attorneys from challenging the use of secret evidence in criminal cases. (Section 204)
  
• Gagging grand jury witnesses in terrorism cases to bar them from discussing their testimony with the media or the general public, thus preventing them from defending themselves against rumor-mongering and denying the public information it has a right to receive under the First Amendment. (Section 206)

Diminishes corporate accountability under the pretext of fighting terrorism; specifically, by

• Granting immunity to businesses that provide information to the government in terrorism investigations, even if their actions are taken with disregard for their customers’ privacy or other rights and show reckless disregard for the truth. Such immunity could provide an incentive for neighbor to spy on neighbor and pose problems similar to those inherent in Attorney General Ashcroft’s “Operation TIPS.” (Section 313)

Undermines fundamental constitutional rights of Americans under overbroad definitions of “terrorism” and “terrorist organization” or under a terrorism pretext; specifically by

• Stripping even native-born Americans of all of the rights of United States citizenship if they provide support to unpopular organizations labeled as terrorist by our government, even if they support only the lawful activities of such organizations, allowing them to be indefinitely imprisoned in their own country as undocumented aliens. (Section 501)
  
• Creating 15 new death penalties, including a new death penalty for “terrorism” under a definition which could cover acts of protest such as those used by Operation Rescue or protesters at Vieques Island, Puerto Rico, if death results. (Section 411)
  
• Further criminalizing association – without any intent to commit specific terrorism crimes – by broadening the crime of providing material support to terrorism, even if support is not given to any organization listed as a terrorist organization by the government. (Section 402)
  
  
• Permitting arrests and extraditions of Americans to any foreign country – including those whose governments do not respect the rule of law or human rights – in the absence of a Senate-approved treaty and without allowing an American judge to consider the extraditing country’s legal system or human rights record. (Section 322)

Unfairly targets immigrants under the pretext of fighting terrorism; specifically by

• Undercutting trust between police departments and immigrant communities by opening sensitive visa files to local police for the enforcement of complex immigration laws. (Section 311)
  
• Targeting undocumented workers with extended jail terms for common immigration offenses. (Section 502)
  
• Providing for summary deportations without evidence of crime, criminal intent or terrorism, even of lawful permanent residents, whom the Attorney General says are a threat to national security. (Section 503)
  
• Completely abolishing fair hearings for lawful permanent residents convicted of even minor criminal offenses through a retroactive “expedited removal” procedure, and preventing any court from questioning the government’s unlawful actions by explicitly exempting these cases from habeas corpus review. Congress has not exempted any person from habeas corpus -- a protection guaranteed by the Constitution -- since the Civil War. (Section 504)
  
• Allowing the Attorney General to deport an immigrant to any country in the world, even if there is no effective government in such a country. (Section 506)

www.aclu.org...

I mentioned in a thread about the London bombings that those attacks were just too well timed with the vote on the Patriot Act. It stinks to high heaven. Hey US Government, here's a novel idea.. how about you let people get final say on this?

Lets not forget that The first Patriot act was ready and waiting and PASSED 45 days after 9/11!!!

I work in corporate america- believe me, for a document such as this, it would take a year or more to iron it out and get it passed.

All too convienent

Peace

Originally posted by edsinger
Your party and the 'other' one realize that they need to do something to stop what they can, these fanatics use our own freedoms against us.

Take away those freedoms, and this country isn't even worth defending.

4th amend

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.



5th Amend

No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offence to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.



What about these two amends did the supporters of the Patriot act miss??? Delayed warrents- gimme a break that is blatent disregard!!!!

not to start a flame of any kind but, has anyone here ever been affected by the "patriot act"?? Non of my rights have been tooken away as of yet.
[edit on 22-7-2005 by evanfitz]

[edit on 22-7-2005 by evanfitz]

How many of your rights do you EXERCISE in a given day?


how about:

Right to have a warrent served stating specifically WHAT they are searching for

-or-

The right to a speedy trial --- by your peers?

-or-


The right to be informed why you being are detained? (been arrested lately- or pulled over for speeding?)

-or-


The right to have an attorney present when questioned?




Those are just a few and they ARE rights and they are very much infriged by the PA.

How about YOU actually RE-READING the constitution and suddenly becoming INFORMED. 30 minutes of your time will actually make you a MUCH better citizen. Right now you are portraying symptoms of a SUBJECT. If you are to lazy to read the darn document which defines our nation go bury your head back in the sand.


The ineptness of civics classes now-a-days; gesh these teachers should be shot for treason! An uniformed citizen is a hazard to the entire populus- its like giving loaded guns to toddlers to allow folks never having read the constitution to vote! Top it all off it just seems most of those toddlers brandishing guns are now serving in congress or on the supreme court!

ummm thanx for that lecture.
It was getting pretty interesting until I reached the bottom. I believe your name Launchpad should be changed to lift off.

[edit on 22-7-2005 by evanfitz]

I am very sorry if I hurt your feelings. But honestly, I just cannot believe someone would ask THAT question if they had so much as given a cursory glance at the document. This is a REAL issue not something for entertainment.

There are people fighting and dying for those ideas stated in the Constitution and it is a spit in the face to those that are dying and have died for any citizen to take it lightly. I happen to be one of them and been doing it for over 13years now. I swore to defend that 'piece of paper 'as some call it from enemies foreign and domestic- the uniformed are letting that piece of paper get shredded. Hot under the collar does not begin to cover it!

If you were in a war zone for a single day getting shot at how would you feel to watch you comrades killed and hear folks back home saying they didn’t even know WHAT rights were being fought for?? Ok, even IF you have problems with the current war- how about the WAR OF INDEPENDENCE. Our forefathers would be appalled. The language in the Constitution is black and white. Here is a link if it will help you on your journey to becoming an informed citizen. Please notice the “shall not”s and “shall”s throughout the document?

en.wikipedia.org...

Also highly recommended anything by John Locke or Benjamin Franklin- do a web search as there is TONS of material from these two and at least BF is someone even grade-schoolers will recognize. You know- he’s the guy with the kite getting his ___ shocked.

BF said,” Those willing to give up a little liberty for a little security deserve neither security or liberty.” Man that is powerful. That is straight forward.

Again, I apologize for trampling your feelings but you really should bring yourself to INVEST 30 minutes reading up on the most important document in our nations history.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
I am not only concerned about myself and my rights. I'm concerned about the rights of ALL my fellow countrymen. If I were so selfish to only be concerned about ME and MY rights, then it wouldn't bother me (so much). But part of being an American to ME is to care for and stand up and fight for my fellow man.

OK. Nice try at sidestepping the question.

So, exactly which rights have you or any of your fellow Americans lost due to the Patriot Act?

Originally posted by WestPoint23
Oh no my civil liberties are being trampled upon! Wait I cant think of one instance where my rights have been denied or violated, strange don't you think?

So I guess Nazism was a good form of Government for those it DIDN'T send to the ovens, huh?

Communism must have been GREAT for the ones the WEREN'T sent to the gulags, right?

The millions of Chinese should LOVE their Government, after all THEY werent one of the 20 million killed right?


What you are saying is that no matter how represive the government gets as long as it doesnt bother YOU then those it does should just shut up, right?

I have lived longer then most on this board and freedoms ARE being taken away and the ground work is being laid to take them ALL.

But as long as they dont kick YOUR door open in the midle of the night it doesnt matter, right?

We MUST get rid of the two headed monster our government has become.

Vote these would be dictators out of office, vote Independent, Libertarian, Constitualist, etc, ANYTHING other than Republican or Democrat

centurion
Put on your forward-thinking cap and read KingLizard's post. You never know, you just might learn something.

Then again, you're a patriot in the traditional sense, so there's not much hope I'm afraid.

Originally posted by launchpad
How many of your rights do you EXERCISE in a given day?


how about:

Right to have a warrent served stating specifically WHAT they are searching for

-or-

The right to a speedy trial --- by your peers?

-or-


The right to be informed why you being are detained? (been arrested lately- or pulled over for speeding?)

-or-


The right to have an attorney present when questioned?




Those are just a few and they ARE rights and they are very much infriged by the PA.

And which of those things would affect any law-abiding citizen?

Maybe terrorists and other criminals should be worried by the Patriot Act.

BTW, why is it now that you are so concerned?

evanfitz, centurion1211 and WestPoint23 from page one had already asked that ridiculous question. So you're not the only one...

Launchpad, thanks for your excellent response! Some think as long as things don't effect them directly there's nothing wrong. What a selfish attitude! And most times these are the same people who stand up and shout, "America! Right or Wrong!" Well, no. Not according to the Declaration!

Blind adherance to authority without question or dissent results in a nation of weaklings!

"That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.
...
But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security"

Emphasis added. We have a duty to protect the people from a government that would remove our rights! Whether we use them today or not!

Originally posted by centurion1211

And which of those things would affect any law-abiding citizen?

Are you saying ONLY criminals are EVER arrested, pulled over, questioned, etc?

Maybe terrorists and other criminals should be worried by the Patriot Act.

BTW, why is it now that you are so concerned?

so anyone who is worried or dissagrees is now a suspected terrorist?

You have just proved our point

Originally posted by WyrdeOne
centurion
Put on your forward-thinking cap and read KingLizard's post. You never know, you just might learn something.

Then again, you're a patriot in the traditional sense, so there's not much hope I'm afraid.

I do call it forward thinking to decide that, due to current real world situations, I can accept the Patriot Act in return for it being less likely that anyone in my family is attacked by these fiends.

Just curious, but how would you feel about having thousands of cameras installed everywhere like the British have done? You know the very same cameras that are helping catch these terrorists? I'm guessing that you'd also consider that an infringment of your rights and prefer instead to leave yourself and your family totally defenseless. BTW, that's known as the 'herd strategy' used by many animals that hope that safety in numbers will mean that the lion eats the other guy. That's the best that you can do for yourself and your family?

Pitiful.

Originally posted by centurion1211
Right to have a warrent served stating specifically WHAT they are searching for

So are you saying it's ok with you for someone to come in and search your house anytime they want without a warrent?

The right to be informed why you being are detained?

It's ok with you if a cop just stops you and takes you in the the station without telling you why? Keeps you for several days without telling you why?

The right to have an attorney present when questioned?

If you find yourself at the scene of a crime (you're innocent, but the cops don't know that) and they start questioning you as if you are a suspect, you'll just waive your right to have an attourney present?

And which of those things would affect any law-abiding citizen?

All of them! Besides, criminals have rights, man! You really don't know how this government works, do you?

Originally posted by Amuk

Originally posted by WestPoint23
Oh no my civil liberties are being trampled upon! Wait I cant think of one instance where my rights have been denied or violated, strange don't you think?

So I guess Nazism was a good form of Government for those it DIDN'T send to the ovens, huh?

Communism must have been GREAT for the ones the WEREN'T sent to the gulags, right?

The millions of Chinese should LOVE their Government, after all THEY werent one of the 20 million killed right?


What you are saying is that no matter how represive the government gets as long as it doesnt bother YOU then those it does should just shut up, right?

I have lived longer then most on this board and freedoms ARE being taken away and the ground work is being laid to take them ALL.

But as long as they dont kick YOUR door open in the midle of the night it doesnt matter, right?

We MUST get rid of the two headed monster our government has become.

Vote these would be dictators out of office, vote Independent, Libertarian, Constitualist, etc, ANYTHING other than Republican or Democrat

Again by side stepping the question you do not answer the question. Nazi-ism was bad for everyone, including those it did not affect. (What that little comment of yours had to do with this thread is beyond me, unless that is the best defense of your position you can come up with) How in the hell can you compare Death camps with the Patriot act? Are you dense man? How many American death camps are there? How many trains with condemmed people travel our railways. How many people are shot execution style then bulldozed into the ground? Not in Amercia buddy so don't push your "AMERCIA IS A NEW NAZI STATE" BS around here! If the patriot act is so bad then move to IRAN - IRAQ - JORDAN - EGYPT - KUWAIT - AFGHANASTAN and write me when you get out of detention and if they don't behead you. The only people who are having any trouble with this are people who have committed an act that would have landed them in trouble even WITHOUT the patriot act! Give me EXAMPLES of personal rights that have been taken away....listen carefully...give EXAMPLE PLEASE!

Originally posted by Amuk

You have just proved our point

Come on Amuk. You're from a tough-guy state with a tough-guy avatar. You prefer to just sit there and try to do nothing to deal with this threat? Hard to imagine you quivering in fear over the Patriot Act when the real enemy is out there threatening all of us.

For the rest of you, show me the real evidence of cattle cars lined up to take innocent people to the detention camps. And by real evidence, I don't mean what was posted here.


[edit on 7/22/2005 by centurion1211]

Originally posted by centurion1211
I do call it forward thinking to decide that, due to current real world situations, I can accept the Patriot Act in return for it being less likely that anyone in my family is attacked by these fiends.

Where would it stop for you? As long as the Republicans are the masters anyway?

You like the Ideas of cameras on the streets, why not in every room of every home? They would catch the bomb makers before they left the house so you can be safe to go to wal-mart.

How about a tracking device on EVERYONE that records everything we do and say? After all it would catch the mean old terrorists when they just TALK about building a bomb.

Would ANY freedom be too much to give away for you?