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The most successful religious conspiracy so far

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posted on Jul, 31 2005 @ 08:42 PM
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Originally posted by marg6043
The concept of fear in religious views was manipulated by the modern Christian church with the purpose of gaining power over the people.



You realize fear has another meaning, to be in awe of and have reverence for. You are concentrating on the wrong meaning of the word fear.

It doesn't have to mean to be afraid of. Most today do not have that feeling of awe or reverence for who God is. They don't even believe there is a God and if they do it's not the one true God.

So if someone tells you to fear the Lord , that would mean to acknowledge God for who He is, God.




posted on Jul, 31 2005 @ 08:46 PM
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Originally posted by queenannie38
The first liar and murderer, which Christ assigns as father to the Pharisees in the gospel of John is Cain.


I just read the verse you are talking about. So are you saying Cain and the devil are one and the same?



posted on Jul, 31 2005 @ 08:58 PM
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Originally posted by dbrandt

You realize fear has another meaning, to be in awe of and have reverence for. You are concentrating on the wrong meaning of the word fear.



Yes the meaning of awe is of A mixed emotion of reverence, respect, dread, and wonder inspired by authority, genius, great beauty, sublimity, or might that is what a creator should be giving to its creation that is my feelings that I get from mine.

But the meaning of "fear" as link too words like "condemnation" "original sin" "evil deeds" "deviance from the teachings of the bible" "damnation" "hell bound" and "none believer", fright, dread, terror, horror, panic, alarm, dismay, consternation, trepidation


Has been used by the church over and over again to keep the faithful insecure and dependent on others for salvation.

You are a smart person you know very well what it means.



posted on Jul, 31 2005 @ 09:04 PM
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Originally posted by marg6043

Yes the meaning of awe is of A mixed emotion of reverence, respect, dread, and wonder inspired by authority, genius, great beauty, sublimity, or might that is what a creator should be giving to its creation that is my feelings that I get from mine.


Has been used by the church over and over again to keep the faithful insecure and dependent on others for salvation.



I don't dread God so that shouldn't be in with reverence.

What is "the church" you are talking about? If it's catholic, then I am on your side, the catholic "church" does not truly tell of God.

And your first sentence. Are you saying God should be worshipping us?

[edit on 31-7-2005 by dbrandt]



posted on Jul, 31 2005 @ 09:13 PM
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Even you dbrant has used the meaning of "fear" in your preaching here in ATS to prove your point.

More and more the fear of God has been used by many religous figures its hard to find a "preacher" that will preach beauty and love without condmenation.



posted on Jul, 31 2005 @ 09:23 PM
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Originally posted by marg6043
Even you dbrant has used the meaning of "fear" in your preaching here in ATS to prove your point.




I say Christ forgives the sins of all who accept His sacrifice on the cross.

John 3:17For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: BUT he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

God says there is condemnation for those who reject His Son, I didn't say it He did. I agree with it because that is what God says.



posted on Jul, 31 2005 @ 09:25 PM
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Originally posted by dbrandt
What is "the church" you are talking about? If it's catholic, then I am on your side, the catholic "church" does not truly tell of God.

And your first sentence. Are you saying God should be worshipping us?

[edit on 31-7-2005 by dbrandt]


Marg I'd appreciate it if you would answer these to questions so that I could learn more of what you believe. Thanks



posted on Jul, 31 2005 @ 09:32 PM
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Originally posted by dbrandt

I don't dread God so that shouldn't be in with reverence.



That is your way of interpretation but you are very quick to use fear of damnation when somebody disagree with your pre-set views.




What is "the church" you are talking about? If it's catholic, then I am on your side, the catholic "church" does not truly tell of God.



I always thought that all "Christians churches" objective if the worship of the Christ.




And your first sentence. Are you saying God should be worshiping us?


No. . . didn't even cross my mine.

You want to know how I feel, dbrant? I am a very fulfill and happy human being with infinite ability to seek the truth thanks to the free will my creator endowed me with.



posted on Jul, 31 2005 @ 09:43 PM
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Originally posted by marg6043
That is your way of interpretation but you are very quick to use fear of damnation when somebody disagree with your pre-set views.



If someone disagrees with what the Bible says, they have the free will to do that.

If someone took a loaded gun and pointed it at someone else and pulled the trigger a bullet would come out and strike the other person and kill or wound them. There would be a consequence to pulling the trigger. In some states the death penalty could be deemed the punishment.

There is a consequence to using your free will to continually reject the offer of salvation in Christ. Rejecting Christ, has a consequence people need to know about. I didn't make the rules, God did.



posted on Jul, 31 2005 @ 09:58 PM
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Originally posted by dbrandt
There is a consequence to using your free will to continually reject the offer of salvation in Christ. Rejecting Christ, has a consequence people need to know about. I didn't make the rules, God did.


Well dbrandt that is your interpretation in your ideology and faith, to believe what I see as a man made book is offering to you. . . a worship of an idol.

We have different points of view and way of seen things. While you believe in the supernatural as a way of faith I see it as personal resposiblities that has to be deal within the human self.

I am not rejecting anything that I believe. I don't follow or worship idols I will have my day with the source itself one day, that is my personal choice.

The difference between you and me is, that while you are bind to earth beliefs made by man in your faith, I will deal directly with the maker and the source of the power that moves us all.

Liberate yourself dbrandt I know you want to, research, seek and you will find, but is up to you to let go and and welcome understanding and seek what religion has done to this planet.



posted on Jul, 31 2005 @ 11:36 PM
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Blaming actions on entities instead of taking personal responsibilities.

Sounds much to familiar. Where have I seen this ?



Originally posted by marg6043 More and more the fear of God has been used by many religous figures...
Instigating fear on the faithful to gain power using the same book that is supposed to give a meaning of salvation is the worst terrorist act on the human mind that any other physical one...
Liberate yourself dbrandt I know you want to, research, seek and you will find, but it is up to you to let go and and welcome understanding and seek what religion has done to this planet


What's that called ?
Sounds like you've got alot of accusations going on yourself.



Originally posted by marg6043I read all with an open mind and see that not even once any believer wants to take the fact that the bible is nothing more than a book written by man and manipulated by the church for social and political power even in ancient times.


Maybe, thats why we're called believers not "open-minders". Ever thought of that?
Ancient times? The Bible, was illegal up until the 17th century. The "evil" church, you so constantly point at, lost nearly half its power after hundreds of men worked together, under the threat of death itself, many were burned at the stake, to translate it in languages which could be accessible for the common reader.

Nothing more than a book ?



posted on Aug, 1 2005 @ 01:11 AM
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Originally posted by dbrandt

Originally posted by jake1997


dbrant.. You may also want to note Peters verse about 1 day being a thousand years and VV....
Peter spoke those words cocerning when Jesus will return.
Adam died at the ripe ole age of 930. Within the first day.




Yah I know this also. I didn't mention it because I think it's one of those hidden things that is hard to understand unless you know the rest of the Bible and believe in Christ, so that it can be revealed to a person.
It's not hard to understand unless one approaches with the selective logic you and Jake have been using to try to prove something that is blatant error but which you believe wholeheartedly in.

More evidence of the very conspiracy which is the subject of this thread. I know you don't realize it--you are not part of except as a promoter of false ideas. Such as:

The devil lied. It was his fault not ours. We would obey if not for him.

Jesus didn't complete save us--something is required from our own human efforts.

Put the responsibility for sin on another and the salvation partly on yourself.

One of the basic foundation stones for religious servitude.



posted on Aug, 1 2005 @ 01:16 AM
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Originally posted by dbrandt

I don't dread God so that shouldn't be in with reverence.


You certainly do your part in promoting dread and mortal fear of Him in others.

If I didn't already know God and how truly awesome and full of LOVE He is, I certainly wouldn't be bolstered toward Him by your efforts.

Why?

Because the god you promote doesn't make sense--and it doesn't seem realistic to think that God is more prone to such nonsense as favoritism and selective salvation than human beings are.

'God loves you, yet He will make sure you suffer for eternity if you don't believe that He loves you.'


Right.



posted on Aug, 1 2005 @ 04:55 AM
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The devil lied. It was his fault not ours. We would obey if not for him.

Genesis 3 satan lied to Eve. I showed you. You chose to ignore it.
The rest are your words.


Jesus didn't complete save us--something is required from our own human efforts.
Jesus Christ said "it is finished". The price of the law was filled at that point. Now, everyone who wishes to follow Jesus...is free. Those who dont, are with satan in judgment.
In other words..When the rich man asked Jesus "what must I do?" Jesus didnt lie when he said "Sell all you have".
When Jesus said "Man cannot serve two masters", He was lying.


Heb 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.




Put the responsibility for sin on another and the salvation partly on yourself.

One of the basic foundation stones for religious servitude.

Nope. I just left a church who brought in a pastor that said "Christ had to die on the cross so that you can take part in salvation"...and everyone ate it up. It was part of the cell group thing that is spreading across the land



posted on Aug, 1 2005 @ 08:52 AM
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Originally posted by joyouslyhumored
of that?
Ancient times? The Bible, was illegal up until the 17th century. The "evil" church, you so constantly point at, lost nearly half its power after hundreds of men worked together, under the threat of death itself, many were burned at the stake, to translate it in languages which could be accessible for the common reader.

Nothing more than a book ?


How much you know of the historical facts of how the bible texts were taken from the Church to be translated?

Obviously you forgot to point out that it was the same "original church" the one that did the persecussion.


Persecussion they did, for centuries against the heretics and none believers.

Now we have a very wide array of church denominations that even when they worship christianity and the Christ can not get together and have the same interpretations of the same written words in the bible.

It's this wrong? no, is not, is about faith and how the faithful absorved the information.

Some like love and beauty and the many poetry like writtings,found in the bible others like the darker side of the bible stories.


Its called human nature, if your hart is clean you see beauty and love if you have issues then you will see the damnation.

Traits of human nature conditioned by social influences.

When we surround ourself with others that see beauty and are full of love we also see the beauty and love in others and also in the bible.

When we shadow ourself with darkness and guilt then all we see is sin, condemnation and damnation.



posted on Aug, 1 2005 @ 11:34 AM
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Originally posted by jake1997

The devil lied. It was his fault not ours. We would obey if not for him.

Genesis 3 satan lied to Eve. I showed you. You chose to ignore it.
The rest are your words.
What did you show me? Your method of exonerating the human race by laying all the blame on the devil? Did Eve not have free will just as you do? If you are deceived somehow and eventually have to answer for your resultant actions--will you blame it on the lying serpent?
God asked Adam first, then Eve, why they ate from the tree. Adam pointed to Eve and Eve pointed to the serpent. Neither one of them owned up to the fact they disobeyed--they knowingly and willingly went against God's direct instruction. To top it off not only did they ruin their apologies with excuses, they didn't make any sort of apology at all!
If you want to blame Satan for the wrong you do, go ahead. Satan doesn't make our choices for us, and he won't be bearing our punishments, either.




Jesus Christ said "it is finished". The price of the law was filled at that point. Now, everyone who wishes to follow Jesus...is free. Those who dont, are with satan in judgment.
Right now, yes some are free already--those that follow Christ, as you say. Yet all will stand in judgment before the LORD:

For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?(1 Peter 4:17)

And, in due time, all will be free--all will be saved:
For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time. (1 Timothy 2:3-6)




Put the responsibility for sin on another and the salvation partly on yourself.

One of the basic foundation stones for religious servitude.

Nope. I just left a church who brought in a pastor that said "Christ had to die on the cross so that you can take part in salvation"...and everyone ate it up. It was part of the cell group thing that is spreading across the land

I have no idea what 'cell group' thing you are talking about. I don't really keep up with that kind of thing, myself.

But as far as what that new pastor said--did Christ not have to die for us to know salvation?

I don't understand your point here, if you wouldn't mind explaining?

[edit on 8/1/2005 by queenannie38]



posted on Aug, 1 2005 @ 12:32 PM
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Originally posted by marg6043
When we shadow ourself with darkness and guilt then all we see is sin, condemnation and damnation.

Right on, Marg. I hope you don't mind if I use your statement to illustrate something about God and baptism, to point out what I, myself, see as the basis for something that various religions pick and choose to do or not to do, with assorted variations.

Religions that do still promote water baptism often only use it as a formal induction to lifelong servitude to sin, rather than the one time cleansing of the conscience that a person needs to 'start fresh' without guilt and shame, and all the regretful emotions that our poor decisions bring about--sometimes by our own mechanisms, and almost always by those ungenerous and judgmental statements our well-meaning friends and family do not hesitate in heaping upon us.

The RCC is the worst one from what I've seen. How can a baby have a conscience that needs cleansing? Good grief! And that doesn't matter anyway, because the life of a catholic seems to be ruled and weighted by sin on a daily basis--if one is faithful to the official catechism of the church.

It's a very clever way to get people to do the opposite of what God wants them to do, disguised by hijacking His name.

God doesn't want us to feel bad for anything we have done before the time when we decided there must be a better way to live. He knows we can't help it! We all make mistakes, and none are worse than any other. And the more we stew in our own regret, the less we love each other, both actively and in the heart.

To model God as the same type of unfair and blind judges that men inherently are is part of the conspiracy and not part of the truth. I've observed that this type of false doctrine breeds more hate and constricted attitudes in so-called christians than no doctrine at all has caused in atheists and various others in those who might be termed 'pagans'. I've met an atheist here and there who was a bit hateful to me, but only at the very first. I've never met a hateful pagan, buddhist, taoist, or even anarchist. That is not to say I'm judging anyone--I am not a judge, only a messenger. Better to believe something else than to be given a chance at the truth and instead believe the lie. And those that believe the lie do the real damage, causing many others to be repelled by what they think is the truth of God as promoted by the world's so called christian faction. Not everyone who calls themself a christian is 'so-called' but I do believe that the time is coming when those who truly know God will see that His people are not called christians anymore and will drop the name. To drop the name is not to drop the truth or it's manifestation in Christ.

In Revelation 3:12 is plainly says:
Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

Anyone that reads the bible, whether they believe it or not, is probably aware that ignorance or unbelief is not the same thing at all as hypocrisy is. Those that God has not yet revealed Himself to are not going to be punished for this fact--He will reveal Himself to all--but as Paul says, 'in due time.' That time is not now.

The time now is for the spreading of the Gospel, not the conversion of the masses. God doesn't need us to convert anyone, His law is perfect and converts the soul. The thing is, He hasn't universally declared His law to everyone. The gospel is not the law. The gospel is 'the good news' and it is to be spread so that when all things come to their fruition, all people will have faith in God to keep His word, because they had heard these things before they came to actually be fact.

And what is the gospel I'm talking about? Nothing you can hear in a Sunday dressed wooden pew hearing all about condemnation and hellfire.

The gospel truth is that God loved the whole world (every one of us) so much that He prepared and sent His Son in order to free us all from the bounds of death, darkness, misery, and hate.

This age is almost over, and in the next age, God's wisdom and mercy will be manifest to all of us, and (this is no lie) we will 'live happily ever after.'


It's better if you believe now, but if you don't/can't believe, please just love each other in truth, and know there is one greater than all of us who loves us more than can be measured. This is not something I just believe anymore--these days I truly know it to be true. I live it and feel it every moment. The reason I do is for the express purpose of testifying it to as factual experience. If I speak it with warranted conviction, my job is complete. My success doesn't depend on whether anyone believes right now or not--I only must obey the truth. And that's the main reason I so vehemently oppose religion--the truth shall set us free and so religion is not truth.

For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
(Romans 8:18-23)

'Shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption'--means freed from the decay and natural death of the flesh. The 'creature itself'--that means that all life forms, even, will be freed from the slavery of death! The world's perfection and beauty will be restored, and nevermore damaged as it is now, because we will have learned and because love will overcome hate! Not our love, but the love that God has for us and gives us for each other. Utopia was not just human fantasy--it is the future of humanity. But humanity can not make this happen on their own, and that what is not understood by most, even though the evidence is overwhelming to those who will look around. But that's of no import--whether or not anyone believes it now doesn't change the fact God has planned it since the beginning of time!

Don't forget you heard it now when you witness it later! For it is only because it's true that I say it so boldly.

How do I know?



posted on Aug, 1 2005 @ 01:04 PM
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queenannie38,

Anytime, I am enjoying this thread very much, you so far are one of the few chrisitans in this forums that have found enlightement in your faith.

Even if we don't share the same believes in the bible we understand what faith and real issues are.

Great topic.

And for the poster that talks about "cells groups" perhaps he is refering to the new Group call "Reconstructionist" this Radical christian fundamentalist,
are in a mission to supress civil rights in order to gain back the nation for their own brand of Christ by their own interpretations, regarless if you agree or not.



posted on Aug, 1 2005 @ 01:47 PM
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Originally posted by marg6043
queenannie38,

Anytime, I am enjoying this thread very much, you so far are one of the few chrisitans in this forums that have found enlightement in your faith.

Even if we don't share the same believes in the bible we understand what faith and real issues are.
Yes that is what I recognize--as well as the light than shines in your heart as love for others. Those who would condemn you for not being a bible thumper are so full of what they do not recognize as the void which is where love should be--and which is what true 'wickedness' really is.






And for the poster that talks about "cells groups" perhaps he is refering to the new Group call "Reconstructionist" this Radical christian fundamentalist,
Oh, the 'religious right', 'neocons', the Jerry Falwell type evangelism? I see.

All a pack of lies and hatred, no matter which approach is taken. Hate is still have even when you call it love. And love is always love even if it hurts at first (in the form of truth). It doesn't hurt forever!



posted on Aug, 1 2005 @ 06:14 PM
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Originally posted by queenannie38

Originally posted by jake1997

The devil lied. It was his fault not ours. We would obey if not for him.

Genesis 3 satan lied to Eve. I showed you. You chose to ignore it.
The rest are your words.
What did you show me?


The verse where satan lied.



Your method of exonerating the human race by laying all the blame on the devil?

Your words, not mine. You seem to do that alot.
Could you please qoute me on this?
Thanks



Did Eve not have free will just as you do? If you are deceived somehow and eventually have to answer for your resultant actions--will you blame it on the lying serpent?

There is one that judges.



God asked Adam first, then Eve, why they ate from the tree. Adam pointed to Eve and Eve pointed to the serpent. Neither one of them owned up to the fact they disobeyed--they knowingly and willingly went against God's direct instruction. To top it off not only did they ruin their apologies with excuses, they didn't make any sort of apology at all!
If you want to blame Satan for the wrong you do, go ahead. Satan doesn't make our choices for us, and he won't be bearing our punishments, either.

They had the free will to repent just like all of us.

BTW..the first question God asked was, 'Who told you , you were naked?"

As for the rest, about jugdment....read revelation. It says there are two judgments. Ours comes first, and then a 1000 years later...the rest are judged and the only verdict at that one is guilty. The guilty are tossed into the lake with satan.
Read it. Its there.



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