It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.

Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.

Thank you.

 

Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.

 

The most successful religious conspiracy so far

page: 2
0
<< 1    3  4 >>

log in

join
share:

posted on Jul, 30 2005 @ 09:35 PM
link   

Originally posted by dbrandt

Originally posted by queenannie38
Could it be possible that God is not going to hurt and torment souls forever?


First off God made the escape of seperation from Him possible in Christ. So if someone winds up seperated from Him then they, by not choosing Christ have still made a choice. So they have chosen this seperation in hell.

Rev.20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet ARE, and shall be tormented day and night FOREVER and EVER.

Read Matthew ch. 25..........
Matthew 25:41Then shall he say also unto them, Depart from me, ye cursed, into EVERTLASTING fire, prepared for the devil and his angels.
Matthew 25:46 And these shall go into EVERLASTING punishment: but the righteous into eternal life.



So yah, the Bible does say that there is a torment that lasts forever. It makes us "feel" better to think that no one will go there, but that's simply not true.
Check your Greek lexicon for the meaning of 'forever and ever'--fpr one thing--what's needed further than 'forever?' Another 'ever'? The fact is that is translated deceptively to fit the agenda of christianity--it is 'aeon into aeon' or 'aeon of aeon'. Which neither one means forever and ever.

As well, no souls are mentioned, just the beast and false prophet. These are not men.

It doesn't make me feel better to think any one certain thing--for if I think it but it is not true, am I not just lying to myself? That is a temporary fix at best. If one lies to one's self, surely there is no ability to discern truth from falseness outside of one's self.

God puts His love into hearts by way of the Holy Spirit--and with the love of God truly in a human heart, that human will not wish to see anyone suffer, not even a cricket! Along with that God-given ability to love others, comes a wisdom to see the bigger picture. It doesn't involve cruel and unusual punishment.





satan's lie was a simple sentence, "Hath God really said" that brought in doubt and confusion and untruth. That same line he still uses today to trip up mankind from knowing the truth.

[edit on 30-7-2005 by dbrandt]
No doubt Satan lies, but satans are primarily accusers. This is not a lie. Satan made no statement that can be construed as a lie. He asked questions. Tempting questions that led to Eve disobeying God. Satan didn't lie in this case. He just put an idea in Eve's head--one that obviously was already there--after all, she was close enough to the tree to hear the snake who was in it, wasn't she? Already the seed of disobedience was in the garden in such a way.

They didn't eat of the tree of wisdom, but of the knowledge of good and evil. And in so doing, gained bilateral eyesight for knowing good and evil.

And if you don't think God didn't expect it, plan it, all that--then you're fooling yourself. God is the boss. And He is full of more love than we can comprehend. He did it all for our own good. That's all He's about.




posted on Jul, 30 2005 @ 09:55 PM
link   
Fact

If you are telling others that God teaches us that no one will die in the lake of fire....eternal torment...then you are saying the opposite of what God says.

Guess what that is? "Let God be true and every man a liar"

The teaching that annie is doing leads to death. Teaching everyone that there is nothing to loose by not accepting Christ is directly from satan.
Satan is the father of lies.

God, Jesus, the prophets, the apostles all say hell is forever and it sucks.
Teaching different is a lie. Case closed. Who tells lies? Saints? No.
So its either the mislead, or the liars.

Dont believe the bible? This isnt about you. This is about the bible and God.



Jesus Christ died to save all flesh, all men--not just those who align themselves with the most politically correct religious institution).


Could you provide scripture.

1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth forever.
1Pe 1:24 For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away:
1Pe 1:25 But the word of the Lord endureth forever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.

Not all flesh it appears the flesh will die.


#2 To serve as it's own extermination. In other words: God created evil in order to dispose of evil, once and for all, world without end, Amen.


Id would like scripture on this too.
Jesus Christ will dispose of evil once and for all. Are you saying Jesus is evil?

Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.


Hell, like herpes is forever. Scripture shows it.

Now, about your logic. Please tell the folks why they should follow Jesus now...instead of going out and robbing banks, getting drunk, killing babies, diving into and orgy, aborting the resulting baby..etc...

Why should they miss all that ...when they goto heaven without missing it?



posted on Jul, 30 2005 @ 10:04 PM
link   


No doubt Satan lies, but satans are primarily accusers. This is not a lie. Satan made no statement that can be construed as a lie.


Defending the father of lies now are we? Jesus spoke of satan here

Joh 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.


Now lets test your statement next to Gods word


Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die

Gen 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:


No doubt Satan lies, but satans are primarily accusers. This is not a lie. Satan made no statement that can be construed as a lie.







[edit on 30-7-2005 by jake1997]



posted on Jul, 30 2005 @ 11:44 PM
link   

Originally posted by dbrandt

[Adam and Eve did die. Spritual death came to them, when they disobeyed and physical death came later. Only Adam and Eve had alive spirits that went dead. They could definitely tell something was wrong because they tried to hide from God. (Now we are born with dead spirits that can come alive in Christ).


Sorry, I didn't hear the figurative interpretation bell. Or was it just for the elect?


So they died in 2 ways. What wisdom did they gain. They gained the ability to do wrong, sin became a part of them.


They gained the ability to do wrong, just like their creator. He basically stated that if he didn't run them out of Eden "poste haste", that they might get the idea to eat of the Tree of Life, gain immortality, and be as gods themselves. (Gen 3:22) But wait, I seem to recall you insinuating that they were already immortal...Hmmm, another contradiction caused by figurative interpretation. See how insidiously it works?

It is "scripture" like this that adds support to my firm conclusion that the Supreme Being and the god referred to, in much of the scriptures, are not the same entity. The more I study the revered writings of the Judaeo-Christian belief system, in addition to all other available historical documentation, the more I realise that we were created by a self-styled god, and not the Supreme Being Himself. I believe that there is spiritual wisdom present in the scriptures (as well as the writings of many other cultures) which has, as it's source, the real God; unfortunately, it has been so hashed in with everything else due to 6,000(+/- 220,000) years of interpretive & translatory mutation, not to mention a veritable host of authors, that it's very difficult to extract without a lot of diligent, open-minded research. But, then again, we already know what's right & wrong, thanks to that incident in the garden.



posted on Jul, 31 2005 @ 12:07 AM
link   

Originally posted by jake1997

Now, about your logic. Please tell the folks why they should follow Jesus now...instead of going out and robbing banks, getting drunk, killing babies, diving into and orgy, aborting the resulting baby..etc...

Why should they miss all that ...when they goto heaven without missing it?

Jake When have I once said 'sin all you want, disregard God, it will be okay.' ?????? You assume that because I tell the truth--which you have not been able to refute, only counter with out of context verses defined by faulty english translation, and not according to the greek at all--and rarely the OT--that the bible says ALL MEN WILL BE SAVED. Explain how these verses are incorrect if you can, but do not suggest that because I believe what the bible says that my 'logic' is faulty. I am not trying to make logic out of the bible, you are. I am just stating what the bible says.

Do you think God is so weak that He must give all of us an ultimatum to follow Him or else? Do you not believe all that is written about God being full of love, justice, and merciful?

You cast aspersions at me because I am not saying the same things that you believe to be true. You are judging me and believing in all your heart that you are right and I am wrong. Do you not think you will be judged according to the manner in which you are judging me? Not once have I said anything out of line to you--you and DBrandt have both basically called me a liar. How is it that you don't equate such behavior with the word 'accusation?' Are you not accusing me? Have I once accused you?

God isn't a dictator or a control freak. He is just like a Father who wants His beloved children to grow up right but with strength of mind yet without the foolishness of vain pride. No Father who is truly loving to His children would let a single one die if He could help it. Do you not think God's love is more perfect than even the best human father that ever lived? And do you not believe God is all powerful and that with Him, all things are possible?

Do you believe in God only because you believe you are going to 'heaven' ?(whatever that means to you, that is) --because you are one of His children that He is going to allow to live? What if you were one that He didn't allow to live? Would you be comfortable with that? Does not a Father punish His children in order to help them see the wisdom of His ways and guide their paths down the same road? Or is it characteristic of paternity to kill those who don't obey--with no mercy at all?

God is our Father and He is perfect. There are some fathers in this world who might let their children die and not do anything about it, and there are actually some who would kill their children. But these are the worst case scenarios and God, in all things, is the 'best scenario.' Do you not think God is all that He says He is?

Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near: Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon. For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts. For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater: So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.
(Isaiah 55:6-11)



posted on Jul, 31 2005 @ 12:52 PM
link   

Originally posted by Lordling
[

Sorry, I didn't hear the figurative interpretation bell. Or was it just for the elect?




I think you hit the nail on the head.

1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spritually discerned.

A person who has physically died cannot ingest food into his/her system.

The same is true of the person who's spirit is still dead, they cannot spiritually ingest the spritual aspects of God until they have been born again, through the acceptance of Christ as Savior.



posted on Jul, 31 2005 @ 12:59 PM
link   

Originally posted by queenannie38

He asked questions. Satan didn't lie in this case. .



Genesis 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

There is a lie in satans contact with Eve. he said they wouldn't die, when in fact they spiritually died that day and physically died later on.

You really need to get the facts together about what the Bible says.



posted on Jul, 31 2005 @ 01:16 PM
link   

Originally posted by dbrandt

I think you hit the nail on the head.


Yes, I did, but not in the way in which you think. I was referring to the annoying tendency of the religious responder to reserve the right to figuratively interpret said scriptures, but, when deemed necessary, arbitrarily shift over to literal interpretation as soon as a certain position becomes unstable, or merely for convenience. Consequently, when a non-religious responder does this, it is often insinuated that they are not qualified and/or capable of accurately interpreting the scriptures, due to a lack of spirituality which conforms to doctrine.



posted on Jul, 31 2005 @ 01:19 PM
link   

Originally posted by marg6043
Perhaps you didn't mean it in the way that it sounded after reading, but faith is a personal choice and the degree of faith is also the free will of the believer.


The Bible plainly tells us that faith in Jesus Christ is the only way to have eternal life with God. And I couldn't agree more that acknowledging faith in Him is an act of each person's free will. That is what I have always said and alot in the last couple of days here. You either chose to accept him or not, it's up to the individual to accept or reject.

If you were traveling down a highway where the road had been washed out and you almost wrecked but didn't you would feel grateful. So you turn around and head back the other way. You see a car coming toward you heading for the same dangerous spot . Would you try to flag them down and tell them there's danger ahead or would you let them drive on without knowing.

Who is the one with the compassion and caring the one who does nothing and thinks well, "Maybe they will be OK and make it,who am I to warn them. They have a sporty car maybe they can jump over the missing section of road"

Or the one who sees and knows what lies ahead for them and on purpose tells them there is a problem with the road they are on.

The parable of the good samaritan is about exactly this.



posted on Jul, 31 2005 @ 01:31 PM
link   
Ann
The scripture stands.

dbrant.. You may also want to note Peters verse about 1 day being a thousand years and VV....
Peter spoke those words cocerning when Jesus will return.
Adam died at the ripe ole age of 930. Within the first day.

I point that out because it is obviously stated in scripture...and it supports the 'figurative' version of day in this case. No man is changing Gods word...we are reading just like God showed us.
So...Peter is the one who 'rang the figurative bell'.



posted on Jul, 31 2005 @ 01:31 PM
link   

Originally posted by dbrandt

There is a lie in satans contact with Eve. he said they wouldn't die, when in fact they spiritually died that day and physically died later on.

You really need to get the facts together about what the Bible says.


I'm sorry, but this is a typical case of twisted, Apologetic logic. The Serpent said Eve would die, she didn't. Adam ate of the Tree; he didn't drop dead either. Case: Either God lied, or he really meant something else. Assumption: God (as popularly regarded) is unable to lie (being perfect), therefore He meant what he said in a different way. Case: What are the divisions of death? Physical (verifiable) & spiritual (conceptual). Assumption: God must have been referring to spiritual death.
Unfortunately, He must not have done a very good of explaining this to Adam & Eve, else, I doubt they would have been ignorant enough to succumb to the Serpent's "wiles".



posted on Jul, 31 2005 @ 01:35 PM
link   

Originally posted by Lordling

Originally posted by dbrandt

There is a lie in satans contact with Eve. he said they wouldn't die, when in fact they spiritually died that day and physically died later on.

You really need to get the facts together about what the Bible says.


I'm sorry, but this is a typical case of twisted, Apologetic logic. The Serpent said Eve would die, she didn't.

This is a case of confusion? You meant that different Im sure.


Adam ate of the Tree; he didn't drop dead either. Case: Either God lied, or he really meant something else. Assumption: God (as popularly regarded) is unable to lie (being perfect), therefore He meant what he said in a different way. Case: What are the divisions of death? Physical (verifiable) & spiritual (conceptual). Assumption: God must have been referring to spiritual death.
Unfortunately, He must not have done a very good of explaining this to Adam & Eve, else, I doubt they would have been ignorant enough to succumb to the Serpent's "wiles".


This was explained in my post that was made at the same time as yours.

According to Peter, Adam did indeed die on that same day....physically.



posted on Jul, 31 2005 @ 01:46 PM
link   

Originally posted by jake1997


dbrant.. You may also want to note Peters verse about 1 day being a thousand years and VV....
Peter spoke those words cocerning when Jesus will return.
Adam died at the ripe ole age of 930. Within the first day.




Yah I know this also. I didn't mention it because I think it's one of those hidden things that is hard to understand unless you know the rest of the Bible and believe in Christ, so that it can be revealed to a person.



posted on Jul, 31 2005 @ 01:52 PM
link   

Originally posted by jake1997

This was explained in my post that was made at the same time as yours.

According to Peter, Adam did indeed die on that same day....physically.



I see this as "fishing" for support, using quotes taken out of context from other areas of scripture. Using this methodology, one could prove or disprove almost any point of contention. It also, consequently, makes any intelligent discussion, both, pointless & futile. This, by the way, is the Apologetic's basic mission statement.



posted on Jul, 31 2005 @ 03:58 PM
link   

Originally posted by dbrandt
The Bible plainly tells us that faith in Jesus Christ is the only way to have eternal life with God. And I couldn't agree more that acknowledging faith in Him is an act of each person's free will.


But you also have to understand that this applies for people that have this believes, people that take the bible as the literal word of a God that never wrote anything in it.

And that includes the Christ he never wrote anything about himself but the so call "men of God" did it for him, creating a false idol of what perhaps was nothing more than a regular human being.

The bible has been interpreted any way that it suits the purpose of others.

Even in this thread believers also differ on the meaning of what they read.

It’s that unnatural? Not its not it all comes as how much faith you have in your own interpretations and the disposition of the individual.

I read all with an open mind and see that not even once any believer wants to take the fact that the bible is nothing more than a book written by man and manipulated by the church for social and political power even in ancient times.

Evil is a creation of the human conscience to explain actions that they don't want to take their time to analyze.

Blaming actions on entities instead of taking personal responsibilities.

Instigating fear on the faithful to gain power using the same book that is supposed to give a meaning of salvation is the worst terrorist act on the human mind that any other physical one.

Is people out there that are very good at that and many will call themselves "men of god"

Fear is a powerful tool in the hands of the self proclaim righteous.



posted on Jul, 31 2005 @ 04:21 PM
link   
Yahshua said, “Blessed are the dead who die in Me, and are made perfect in My image and likeness, for they rest from their labours and their works do follow them. They have overcome evil, and are made Pillars in the Temple of My God, and they go out no more, for they rest in the Eternal. Yet for them that have done evil there is no rest, but they go out and in, and suffer correction for ages, till they are made perfect. But for them that have attained unto perfection, there is endless rest and they go into life everlasting. Over them the repeated death and birth have no power.”

The use of fear in religion

The concept of fear in religious views was manipulated by the modern Christian church with the purpose of gaining power over the people.

How fear was added to the way of religion in modern times is something that many so call experts in religion don’t even know because they don’t want to take time to research in what has become the way to keep the flock control.

"Hell" is not in their Bible (in the original Greek or Hebrew), and neither are the words "forever" and "eternal." The word miss-translated "forever" or "eternal" is the Greek word "aion," which means for a set period of time - meaning it has an end. The words mis-translated as "hell" mean grave (sheol and hades) or a trash dump outside of Jerusalem (gehenna).

If God was an all-knowing (omniscient) and all-powerful (omnipotent), why he has the need to allowed men to go against his will? That is a question hard to answer by the so call religious experts.

God been endowed with the powers of creation but for some reason he failed to control his own master piece “men itself”

How its this?

Simple the bible will tell that God created man in his image man been “evil” by the original sin and by nature has inherited from God itself? But God is perfect. Right. So we most assume that God is evil like men. Right”

Let see, if God knew what men was to do beforehand then why did he allowed it. God was having a good time just destroying the ones that did not follow its commandments.

He should have easily been able to create those whom He desired and save us all from ever existing and facing wrath, if we make wrong choices, but He instead allowed evil to propagate the earth and wait for a time of “judgment” to do his cleansing because obviously his son the Christ was not good enough to die for our sins.

Wait a moment “we are made in god’s image” right? And he knows it all even from the womb he knows.

"For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His son..." Romans 8:29

"God did not cast away His people whom He foreknew.." Romans 11:2

If we are eternal beings, then we have always been (in God). Therefore, we will always be.

Does that make sense ? No, because it will mean that by bible standards of some interpretations we are not to face destruction but be like our creator eternal.

Actually Religious interpretations of bible teaching and verses make no sense at all unless you are synchronized in your believes.


[edit on 31-7-2005 by marg6043]



posted on Jul, 31 2005 @ 05:38 PM
link   

Originally posted by jake1997
Peter spoke those words cocerning when Jesus will return.
Adam died at the ripe ole age of 930. Within the first day.
So then where does that leave you with the 'earth is 6000 years old?' If you apply what Peter said to this situation, then apply it to the whole situation. That would mean that either
a. Adam is alive right now
b. The serpent didn't lie completely, because physically Adam and Eve didn't die that day, only spiritually.


I point that out because it is obviously stated in scripture...and it supports the 'figurative' version of day in this case. No man is changing Gods word...we are reading just like God showed us.
No you are reading it to suit your preformed beliefs from which you cannot detach yourself long enough to actually read for understanding. That kind of out of context manipulation of scripture is not what God shows us.

The first liar and murderer, which Christ assigns as father to the Pharisees in the gospel of John is Cain.

First he killed his brother (who he should have been keeping) in a fit of jealousy over his own poor decision to worship God as he felt right, not how God deemed right--and he lied about it when asked, then showed his true heart by saying 'Am I my brother's keeper?'

This is the origin of false religion and the 'mark of the beast'. Genesis 4:15.

Christ remedied all the things set wrong by Cain's one day of evil intentions.



posted on Jul, 31 2005 @ 05:41 PM
link   

Originally posted by marg6043

Fear is a powerful tool in the hands of the self proclaim righteous.

You certainly said a mouthful!



posted on Jul, 31 2005 @ 07:22 PM
link   
Im hoping to keep that streak going.

What do you think the verse in Peter is talking about?

2Pe 3:3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
2Pe 3:4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
2Pe 3:5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
2Pe 3:6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished.
2Pe 3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
2Pe 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

I posted enough there that you should be able to pick up a context.
It surely means something.

Its speaking of the return of Christ.
We know that the week is a standard time period.
We know that CHrist will rule on earth for 1000 years.
We know that God calls that period , His rest.
We know that the sabbath ...the 7th day...is the day of rest
We know that God (christian believers know) created the earth in 6 days and rested on the 7th

Now along comes peter and says that...concerning Christs return...a day is like a thousand years and a 1000 years is like a day.

We know that God said Adam would surely die in the day he ate the fruit.
We know that Adam lived 930 years.

It all fits and no twisting is needed.


Is it a coincidence that the bible adds up the years to be (roughly) 6000....and that Israel is a nation again....and ..the falling away is in full swing



posted on Jul, 31 2005 @ 07:59 PM
link   
It's not that I don't understand the context in the sample you provided, it's that I find selective interpretation of units of measure to be a precarious position. Using logic would infer that the "days" in Genesis are 1,000 years in length as well. I've also learned that just because certain things fit, doesn't necessarily prove that they have been assembled properly (my kids' swingset for example). People tend to see what they want to see (myself included), which is why I am wary in the first place.



new topics

top topics



 
0
<< 1    3  4 >>

log in

join