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The most successful religious conspiracy so far

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posted on Jul, 21 2005 @ 03:46 AM
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The oldest, most successful, farthest-reaching conspiracy in religion is...

Religion itself!

All forms--regardless of choice of deity, or even lack of diety--are diversionary tactics as well as subversive thought reconstruction, aimed toward one goal. This goal is doomed to fail, though, and has been since the start--but has been permitted by the Almighty Living God to exist and even to 'prosper' for two principle reasons:

#1 To act as an undisputable sifting mechanism, sorting those who love truth from out of those who 'love and make lies'. The need for it being undisputable is not God's--for He knows and is ultimately in control of all things and so definitely is not uncertain in any way how anything will turn out. The need is man's--so that, in the end, we are fully aware of why things are the way they are when we are placed according to our rewards and punishments in the hierarchy of the kingdom (for all men will eventually make it there: Jesus Christ died to save all flesh, all men--not just those who align themselves with the most politically correct religious institution).

#2 To serve as it's own extermination. In other words: God created evil in order to dispose of evil, once and for all, world without end, Amen.

Now there are several reflexive defenses which arise to such statements as I've just made--all coming, of course, from those entrenched in their belief of the necessity of religion. But, in a circular, albeit fully viable, logic, all such objections can be initially discredited on the premise that of course they must be defended at all costs--for the widely accepted false views which are staunchly protected are the sustenance that keeps the false system thriving.

Each also has it's particular points of fallibility, though--and I'll go backwards from #2 to #1.

#2 is easy--so many would say 'God didn't create evil! God is only good!'
Half true. God IS only good--and is the only One who is good, as we are told by His Son. But He is the Creator, and nothing exists without His willful intention. Including evil.

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. Drop down, ye heavens, from above, and let the skies pour down righteousness: let the earth open, and let them bring forth salvation, and let righteousness spring up together; I the LORD have created it. Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker! Let the potsherd strive with the potsherds of the earth. Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it, What makest thou? or thy work, He hath no hands?
(Isaiah 45:7-9)

Evil is to be overcome, and its root source destroyed--by its own design.


The fact that the concept of 'evil' and 'wickedness', and the essence of what we call 'sin' is ultimately a simple thing: the pot striving against the will of the Potter--means that it can face no other end but extinction. No created thing can deny it's Creator indefinitely. Nothing can exist outside of that which caused it to exist. The idea that a soul can be sinful enough, of its own choosing, and withstanding God's will by its own limited mortal power, to bring about some sort of eternal punishment away from the presence of God-- in either a fiery hell or dark and cold grave--is just the grandest version of the delusion that God's will can somehow be thwarted.

We are told God wills not to lose any of His own--and that Christ came to save the sins of the world--the whole world! Therefore none will be lost and all will be overcomers. Maybe not by the end of this earth age--but death will be destroyed at that time, meaning that that route of escape from the will of God will be eliminated, as well.

#1 is founded on solid scripture--provided that extra-biblical meanings are not grafted into the verses which form its foundation, something that is done more often than not, especially when the simple proof provides no means of domination for self and/or suppression of others.

About truth and delusion:
2 Thesssalonians 2:10-12
John 4:24
John 8:45
John 14:17
John 17:14-17
Romans 1:25
1 Timothy 6:3-5
2 Timothy 3:7
Titus 1:16
2 Peter 2:2

About rewards and punishment:
Romans 2:6
2 John 1:8
Matthew 10:41
Matthew 16:27
1 Corinthians 3:8
Hebrews 2:2
Revelation 22:12

About the hope that all souls are equally entitled to:
1 Timothy 2:4
1 Timothy 4:10

There are many more, but that should be sufficient, at least, for starters.

After all, did not our LORD and Savior say that 'the truth shall make us free?'

What religion has ever given anyone true freedom?

That, in itself, is proof that religion is false, because it enslaves rather than liberates.




posted on Jul, 21 2005 @ 04:15 PM
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You have a lot in what you say, but I've already figured most of that out myself...And posted such quite a while ago. No, I'm not against religion...I'm against organized religion, the single biggest & most pervasive excuse that humanity has ever used to perpetuate evil upon itself.

Gee, I wonder how much better the world would be if everybody could live by & whole-heartedly embrace one, simple law: "Your freedom ends where my nose begins."



posted on Jul, 21 2005 @ 08:04 PM
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Originally posted by MidnightDStroyer
You have a lot in what you say, but I've already figured most of that out myself...And posted such quite a while ago.
9 out of 10 Average-joe-on-the-street (and so therefore maybe 7 or 8 out of ten on this board? dunno, I'm new ) would have some sort of real or perceived deflation at such a declaration. But me---I just say 'Right on!' It's so nice to speak without having to punctuate each sentence with a 'duck-and-cover'!!




Gee, I wonder how much better the world would be if everybody could live by & whole-heartedly embrace one, simple law: "Your freedom ends where my nose begins."
I hear ya.

Three commandments:
Love God.
Love each other.
Mind your own business.

[edit on 7/21/2005 by queenannie38]



posted on Jul, 21 2005 @ 08:47 PM
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werd to that..

how about the one commandment..

Love





posted on Jul, 21 2005 @ 09:44 PM
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Originally posted by MidnightDStroyer
You have a lot in what you say, but I've already figured most of that out myself...And posted such quite a while ago. No, I'm not against religion...I'm against organized religion, the single biggest & most pervasive excuse that humanity has ever used to perpetuate evil upon itself.

Gee, I wonder how much better the world would be if everybody could live by & whole-heartedly embrace one, simple law: "Your freedom ends where my nose begins."
I totally agree with Midnight, I could`nt have said it better, you are so right! Organized Religion is its own enemy!



posted on Jul, 21 2005 @ 09:50 PM
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And oddly, I'm the voice of dissent in the ranks


Love each other....but don't necessarily mind your own business - some people need to have theirs looked after too.

And as for God - well, that's up to your own conscience. Some prefer a religious moral structure; others prefer their own.

(Though this is by no way advocating getting in the face of someone else where religion is concerned - that's kind of a given. Let people believe what they want; none of us has the right to define someone else's belief system)



posted on Jul, 21 2005 @ 10:44 PM
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Originally posted by Tinkleflower
Love each other....but don't necessarily mind your own business - some people need to have theirs looked after too.
I don't see how any human being can be so adept as to be able not only to straighten and tend their own personal affairs, but then also to have the spare sanity to do the same for another! Anyone who feels qualified to do such a thing is not even wearing the right set of spectacles, to begin with.




And as for God - well, that's up to your own conscience. Some prefer a religious moral structure; others prefer their own.
Valid point. The problem with both choices, in regard to one's personal dealings with God, is that neither option actually includes God! One follows the ideas of men--and the other follows the self (read: also the ideas of a man). God is neither other men nor self--and to seek God, one must actually seek God.


(Though this is by no way advocating getting in the face of someone else where religion is concerned - that's kind of a given. Let people believe what they want; none of us has the right to define someone else's belief system)
There is really no way to define the beliefs of another--only influence them. And that's precisely the point I am trying to make: if other men influence our thoughts about God, then the clearness becomes immediately clouded, caused only by our own decision to not aim directly at the source.

The only responsibility we have toward one another, aside from the crucial necessity of love and acceptance, sans judgment, is honesty. I don't mean comfortable politically-correct honesty but the type known as 'integrity', that is often unpopular yet never a foolish investment.

We are all accountable for the truth which we are given--as well as any that we choose to withhold.



posted on Jul, 30 2005 @ 02:10 PM
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I see organised religion as a crutch for humanity. It is used, all too often, to provide justification for, and the absolution of, the assignment of responsibility for human behavior. It is inane & superfluous, in my comprehension, to point to this or that as the basis for why we should live in a certain way. God is perfectly capable of taking care of God, by whatever definition is used to denote God. An individual's spiritual relationship with the Supreme Being should be left entirely up to them.
No organised religion is required to practise the ultimate philosophy: Cause nor allow harm to be done, by word, deed, or absence of action.



posted on Jul, 30 2005 @ 02:21 PM
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The problem with organized religion is that can be traced to its humble beginnings in history and the trail hadn’t been always in a very harmonious circumstances.

Religion’s past has not been very glorious, and what humanity has done in his name is very despicable to this day.

Yes religion can fall easily in conspiracies.



posted on Jul, 30 2005 @ 02:46 PM
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Originally posted by queenannie38
Therefore none will be lost and all will be overcomers.




Rev. 9:20-21 Both say there are people who will not repent of their sins.

Rev. 16:9&11 Same thing, repented not

Rev. 20:15 Some are thrown into the Lake of Fire for eternity. We don't know how many, but there are some.

The beast and the false prophet are in the Lake of Fire, Rev. 20:10, so you are wrong that "all" will be saved. Your statement is now proven to be a lie. You are not telling the truth concerning salvation.



posted on Jul, 30 2005 @ 03:00 PM
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Originally posted by dbrandt
The beast and the false prophet are in the Lake of Fire, Rev. 20:10, so you are wrong that "all" will be saved. Your statement is now proven to be a lie. You are not telling the truth concerning salvation.



You are a prime example of what religion can do to the human mind when the teachings are misguided, or when self-righteousness inflames the ego.

I hope you are not a preacher because your demeanor will guide your flock under the shadow of the perpetual darkness and condemnation.

You sound like somebody that has not hope for others or yourself.

You really like to play the damnation game do you. I got the feeling that you are just playing with the minds of others.

Yes it falls righteously in the conspiracy after all.



posted on Jul, 30 2005 @ 03:04 PM
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Originally posted by dbrandt
Your statement is now proven to be a lie.


That was not called for.



posted on Jul, 30 2005 @ 05:23 PM
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Originally posted by dbrandt

Originally posted by queenannie38
Therefore none will be lost and all will be overcomers.




Rev. 9:20-21 Both say there are people who will not repent of their sins.

Rev. 16:9&11 Same thing, repented not

Rev. 20:15 Some are thrown into the Lake of Fire for eternity. We don't know how many, but there are some.

The beast and the false prophet are in the Lake of Fire, Rev. 20:10, so you are wrong that "all" will be saved. Your statement is now proven to be a lie. You are not telling the truth concerning salvation.

Foul!

Because what I say is not the same as you believe, I am therefore 'lying'? What kind of rationale is that?

I am not telling my own idea of salvation--I'm just relating what the bible does say. Not just the parts that fit my belief system. (which is impossible--I have no 'system' of beliefs--just one belief and the rest is details, truly)

You quote from Revelation, but not in context. Not all are repentant at the point which you quote from--but that's not the final word, is it?

After chapter 9 we find:

Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest. (Revelation 15:4)

This says that after God's judgments are made manifest, then all will glorify His name. All. No qualifiers. Just all.

You quoted chapter 16, too, but since 15:4 is a statement in the future tense (who shall?), and verse 15:8 says the 7 plagues are still to be fulfilled, and chapter 16 is relating what happens in the course of the plagues being poured on the earth, then we can see that even though in chapter 16, some still refused to repent and give glory to God, that will not be the final status of the world--due to the plagues not being done and the temple not being cleansed yet.

You also quote verse 20:15:
And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Does your bible really say that some are here for eternity, and that we don't know how many, just some? Mine just says what I quoted above. What translation do you read? I'd get a second opinion, if I were you--I've never seen such a thing written for that verse.


Also, my bible says:

And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful. (Revelation 21:4-5)

He is going to make all things new. There's that word again: All. What a powerful word, when you truly consider what it means. All things will be new. Not gone, not vanished, but new.

Then, next chapter, Revelation 22:2:
In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

Could it be possible that God is not going to hurt and torment souls forever? That maybe He has a better, more loving way to fix the ills of the world--a way that shows Him to be infinitely just and loving, with mercy and goodness toward all men? A way that will prove that all the misrepresentations that man has created and labeled 'god' were false and a gross injustice to His true character?

Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. (1 Corinthians 3:13-15)

Paul says that a man's works will be tried by fire, and those which are good will follow the man, and the man rewarded. Could it be possible that the lake of fire is not for souls, but for men's works? And that all works not done in the Spirit of the Lamb are those which are not written in the book of Life? Our names are our reputation, in a certain sense: it is our names which bring remembrance to others of our various works, when mentioned. And if we've done work in the name of the LORD, then our name is a Living name. If not, it will be destroyed by fire. But all flesh will be saved. And flesh would turn to chitlins real quick in that fire, anyway.

Death and hades (the darkness of the grave) will be thrown into that lake of fire. All things that are imperfect, which cause us misery and pain, and in turn, cause us to knowingly and also unknowingly hurt each other--these are the things of death, darkness, and 'sin'. When we don't listen to God in our hearts and act every moment out of love for each other, those things we do in those times, those are the 'sins', that is the corruption and evil of the world. And He will abolish it, cleansing every heart and healing every wound.

This is true for each and every one of us--there evidently will be punishments, but truly--that is the thing which we don't really know. But we cannot say that the bible says men's souls will suffer forever. That is not the nature of the Living God. He is pure love and love causes no permanent pain in any way. Sometimes we hurt those we love, for a short time, because we might have to help them in some way that is hurtful to them at the time, but we know that it will mean no hurt for them later on.

That is how God is and no one has to even take my word for it, because there will be a time when all of us will know that without a single doubt.

About 'works', 'death', 'fire', and etc...

For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
(James 2:26)

The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
(2 Peter 3:9-10)

He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
(1 John 3:8)

Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.
(1 John 3:12)

The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light.
(Romans 13:12)

Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.
(2 Corinthians 11:15)

They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.
(Titus 1:16)

This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.
(Titus 3:8)

Heb 10:24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:



posted on Jul, 30 2005 @ 05:48 PM
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You are the first person i've ever met that used verse from the Bible to refute religion. There is but one thing I can say:

That was seriously wicked kewl!!!!!!


The Devine gave us free will, religion gave us chains. Who do you trust?

Yes, I've often said here that religion is a conspiricy, and every religion is a cult for no other reason then it closes your mind to the broader realities of our existence.

Free the chains on your mind and the chains on your soul will melt away.

It's heartening to meet a fellow spiritual anarchist. We are so few and far between.

Love and light,

Wupy



posted on Jul, 30 2005 @ 06:14 PM
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Originally posted by marg6043

Originally posted by dbrandt
The beast and the false prophet are in the Lake of Fire, Rev. 20:10, so you are wrong that "all" will be saved. Your statement is now proven to be a lie. You are not telling the truth concerning salvation.



You sound like somebody that has not hope for others or yourself.

You really like to play the damnation game do you. I got the feeling that you are just playing with the minds of others.



The statement I made is blunt. If that bluntness offended that was not my intention and you have my apology, but the meaning of the words I used I stand by. It is a disservice to let others believe that Christ died for your sins, it's a done deal continue on with the things you are doing. That's not Biblical. Christ did die for every sin ever committed. But I'll repeat this again, a person has to accept that fact. They must make a conscious choice to accept that fact by faith.

Lets say I had strep throat and I went to the DR. They run a culture and the results confirm I have strep throat. The Dr. says don't worry amoxicillon antibiotic cures strep throat. The Dr. writes me a prescription for amoxicillon and the pharmacist fills it and sends me home with it. I go home and set the bottle on the counter. 2 days later I'm still not feeling well and as a matter of fact I'm worse. I go back to the Dr. and he looks at me and is confused. He says, "the amoxicillon should be working, you've been taking it 3 times a day, right?" I reply, "what do you mean taking it. You said amoxicillon cures strep throat, I took it home and set it on the counter and so far it hasn't helped." What's wrong with this. I had a part to play in the amoxicillon being effective in my getting well. I had to agree , in my mind, and then physically get that amoxicillon to go into my stomach before it would work. I did have a part to play in my getting better. Just because there is amoxicillon, before it would work, I had to agree to use it.

The same is true for what Christ did for us. Now comes the part where you have to read exactly what I'm about to say and not add anything to it or subtract from it.

Jesus Christ had every sin ever committed by every person who has ever or will ever live placed upon Himself 2000 years ago while He was nailed to the cross. That is where your sin and my sin was judged by God the Father Himself. His wrath was poured out upon Christ for those sin acts while Christ was upon the cross. We can do nothing to pay the the penalty of sin, Christ paid it. Now each person, individually must accept that. It's more than just hearing the story about Jesus dying for sins. Just like you have to make a decision and put the amoxicillon in your mouth and physically swallow it, each must make a decision that is spiritual. Someone else taking amoxicillon into their body is not going to cure my strep throat. The same is true here. Each must take that knowledge of Christ and let it become a part of them individually, in the soul and spirit and believe it/ trust it/ place their faith in it/ accept it. Faith is an actual thing that is invisible and is inside us. That faith placed in Christ is the step, that makes the forgiveness found in Christ take affect in my life.




Of couse I have hope for others. You have taken one sentence from one post out of all I have written and used it to justify something. If I didn't feel hope and compassion for others why would I spend time on ats and explain the need for Christ. If I didn't stress the truth of Christ, then I would be playing with people's minds because I didn't care if they knew the truth or not. If I didn't care if they went to hell or not then you could say that I have no hope for others. It's because I do care that I go through all of this.

[edit on 30-7-2005 by dbrandt]



posted on Jul, 30 2005 @ 06:43 PM
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Originally posted by queenannie38
Could it be possible that God is not going to hurt and torment souls forever?


First off God made the escape of seperation from Him possible in Christ. So if someone winds up seperated from Him then they, by not choosing Christ have still made a choice. So they have chosen this seperation in hell.

Rev.20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet ARE, and shall be tormented day and night FOREVER and EVER.

Read Matthew ch. 25..........
Matthew 25:41Then shall he say also unto them, Depart from me, ye cursed, into EVERTLASTING fire, prepared for the devil and his angels.
Matthew 25:46 And these shall go into EVERLASTING punishment: but the righteous into eternal life.

So yah, the Bible does say that there is a torment that lasts forever. It makes us "feel" better to think that no one will go there, but that's simply not true.

This is the way God has set it up, to change this in essence means we are telling God that He is wrong. He alone is God, and He alone has made the plan(salvation in Christ) that all men and women must accept or reject. And there are consequences.

When someone says there is no hell to avoid, that can be traced back to Genesis ch. 3 and the lie of satan that caused mankind to fall, and sin to etner in.

satan's lie was a simple sentence, "Hath God really said" that brought in doubt and confusion and untruth. That same line he still uses today to trip up mankind from knowing the truth.

[edit on 30-7-2005 by dbrandt]



posted on Jul, 30 2005 @ 06:59 PM
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Originally posted by dbrandt

When someone says there is no hell to avoid, that can be traced back to Genesis ch. 3 and the lie of satan that caused mankind to fall, and sin to etner in.

satan's lie was a simple sentence, "Hath God really said" that brought in doubt and confusion and untruth. That same line he still uses today to trip up mankind from knowing the truth.

[edit on 30-7-2005 by dbrandt]


So, here we are saying that "Satan" lied, in telling Eve that she wouldn't die, but gain wisdom. Eve didn't die, and she & Adam both gained wisdom. Hmm, sounds like literal truth to me. Not to mention the fact that procreation wasn't mentioned until after the "fall", and then as a punishment. So, if not for this series of events, none of us would even be here because Adam & Eve would still be immortal, blissfully ignorant, and without offspring. Thank you Eve! Thank you Serpent!



posted on Jul, 30 2005 @ 07:19 PM
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Originally posted by Lordling
So, here we are saying that "Satan" lied, in telling Eve that she wouldn't die, but gain wisdom. Eve didn't die, and she & Adam both gained wisdom.



Adam and Eve did die. Spritual death came to them, when they disobeyed and physical death came later. Only Adam and Eve had alive spirits that went dead. They could definitely tell something was wrong because they tried to hide from God. (Now we are born with dead spirits that can come alive in Christ). So they died in 2 ways. What wisdom did they gain. They gained the ability to do wrong, sin became a part of them.



posted on Jul, 30 2005 @ 07:35 PM
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To put it mildly, I don't believe in all the biblical crap about creation, but if I did i'd have but one thing to say, Eve did us a favor.

I would rather live a short time knowing what I know, beleiving what I believe and loving as I love, then spend an eternity with an IQ second to a fern.

Eve ate from the tree of knowledge and because of that i've raised three beautiful children, loved passionately a woman I swore an oath to. Divorced her when I could no longer abide by that oath. Experianced pain so exquisite I longed for death and knew pleasure so rich I thought that death I had found.

If the Bible is truly the word of god (which I do not believe) then god did not give life unto man, Eve did. Each of us shall forever be in her debt for the chance she took.

God I love women!

Wupy



posted on Jul, 30 2005 @ 08:08 PM
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dbrant I don't make any deceiving post about my interpretations and my feelings about the bible and Religion.

I tell you the facts for what they are.

Perhaps you didn't mean it in the way that it sounded after reading, but faith is a personal choice and the degree of faith is also the free will of the believer.

I don't believe in "original sin" or " creation myth" but I understand that others do, while I tried to bring my observations and light to others so while in their faith they see that is another way to view facts I also understand their views.

Some have room for discussion and understanding of facts.

For some reason dbrant you seem very negative on your own faith while others rejoice in theirs.

I agree that you have compashion, you will not be human if you didn't not even killers may have shown some compashion in their life onces even if it was as a child.

That is the problem.

Been happy in your faith and expecting miracles is not against Christian believes.

Even if I don't believe in them I am very happy for the ones that do, if that makes their existence in faith satisfying, good for them.

If they are debatable and can be analyzed great also.

But telling others that is wrong and sinful is not, because their interpretations are not like yours, when they are living in their faith and are happy with it.




[edit on 30-7-2005 by marg6043]







 
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