Illuminati and the New World Order question

Why do some here take these as two separate entities? I've seen posts speaking as though the NWO exists but the Illuminati may not or does not. This is confusing to me because as I understand it they are one in the same:the Illuminati being those ushering in the NWO. It also seems that when most here use the term "Illuminati" they are referring to the Bavarian Illuminati and not the Illuminati proper. Because from what I've read of the Illuminati,Adam Weishaupt's short-lived society of the same name is/was something different.

Unless I'm misunderstanding something somewhere,I'm not sure how either the Illuminati or NWO can exist without the other.

Well, let me explain my perspective.

The NWO isn't happening by accident; there are driving forces and people behind those forces. These people I refer to as the "Illuminati", or simply, "them". Whether or not it is the Bavarian Illuminati per se is beside the point, as these people believe themselves to be the enlightened ones. I'd prefer not to get caught up in the conspiracy trappings that can slow one down from seeing the effects. The people and the various clubs and organizations are fairly clear, whether they are all connected to the original "Illuminati" is not a concern to me.

Originally posted by Thomas Crowne
Well, let me explain my perspective.

The NWO isn't happening by accident; there are driving forces and people behind those forces. These people I refer to as the "Illuminati", or simply, "them". Whether or not it is the Bavarian Illuminati per se is beside the point, as these people believe themselves to be the enlightened ones.

That's my understanding of the Illuminati concept as well. Hence why I asked because I've seen alot of posts saying the Illuminati existed but don't anymore,referring to the so-called "Bavarian Illuminati". Which to my knowledge was just an offshoot of the true Illuminati.

Originally posted by Loungerist
That's my understanding of the Illuminati concept as well. Hence why I asked because I've seen alot of posts saying the Illuminati existed but don't anymore,referring to the so-called "Bavarian Illuminati". Which to my knowledge was just an offshoot of the true Illuminati.

Depends on which theory you believe,
there are theories that The Illuminati, which goes back thousands of years created the "Bavarian Illuminati", which David Icke states. However, a majority, including skeptics, state the Bavarian Illuminati is the real illuminati that was created in the 1700s and later went underground.

I have wondered about that too. To add to the mix, I also wonder where the Knights Templar fit into the paiste?, if at all.

Bruce Merideth did some research trying to locate the Ark of the Covenant years back and all ends from the Temple Mount in Israel through Ethiopia to Roslyn Scotland the Knights Templar were involved.

Dallas

Edit: sloppy typos

[edit on 23-7-2005 by Dallas]

Originally posted by Loungerist
Why do some here take these as two separate entities? I've seen posts speaking as though the NWO exists but the Illuminati may not or does not. This is confusing to me because as I understand it they are one in the same:the Illuminati being those ushering in the NWO. It also seems that when most here use the term "Illuminati" they are referring to the Bavarian Illuminati and not the Illuminati proper. Because from what I've read of the Illuminati,Adam Weishaupt's short-lived society of the same name is/was something different.

Unless I'm misunderstanding something somewhere,I'm not sure how either the Illuminati or NWO can exist without the other.

dang...your starting to confound & confuse me too,

taking your last question first: [how? can either exist without the other?]

You, just the sentence before that, showed knowledge that an earlier
manisfestation of 'Illuminati" by Adam Weishaupt was a actuality!!
(but you failed to realize that there was not a NWO alongside it...
which makes your necessity for both thriving at the same time, a non-starter)

question #1: [why do some suppose these as Two Seperate Entities?]

my guess is that the 'Illuminati' are the visionaries, creative force, etc.
and they formed the 'NWO' = Agencies to bring their Goals to realization.

? who are Illuminati?...donno, but they're not factory workers, hourly wage
laborers, farmers, service technicions, cabbies, solders, tradesmen/women.
you'll probably find the like minded elitests among the lawyers, financiers,
thinktanks, board-rooms, corporate executives, academia, Generals, Cardinals, Philosophers, etc....(individuals who labor with thoughts & words
rather than sweat & toil)
basically folks like Dr. Henry Kissinger as a stereotypical 'Illuminati'

? who are NWOists ?...they are the 2nd echelon players, they endeavor to
make the goals and directions and concepts of the 'Illuminati' a reality and part of the world around us. the Bankers, CFOs, CIOs, VPs,
the contracted or salaried class, the Commanders & Bird Colonels (& above) class of individuals...
basically folks like GHW Bush, WJ Clinton, GW Bush are standard NWO-leaders

so....it appears that the present arrangement of 'Illuminati' + 'New World Order'....is a seeming unified power block, but if you look closer,
they are two entities working in tandem (like your autos' rear wheels & axel)...after all, if the Illuminati' NWO muscle men (presently the Bush regime & neocons) get derailed....then another strategy (maybe w/ more emphasis on the Zionists) will be implemented.
there's tons of other material out there

i don't know if this fits in with your world-view, but at least
this brief bouncing on my trampoline, gave you a chance to
look over the walls of the box we're all inside of.

Originally posted by St Udiodang...your starting to confound & confuse me too,

taking your last question first: [how? can either exist without the other?]

You, just the sentence before that, showed knowledge that an earlier
manisfestation of 'Illuminati" by Adam Weishaupt was a actuality!!
(but you failed to realize that there was not a NWO alongside it...
which makes your necessity for both thriving at the same time, a non-starter)

I think it's a necessity for the Illuminati to exist if the NWO does. I don't know if the Bavarian Illuminati requires a NWO. When I use the term "Illuminati",I'm referring to the people who consider themselves illuminated and control and know what's really driving the world event. The power families that go way back and have been in power since there was power to have. In other words,those who created the NWO. Adam Weishaupt's group of the same name,as I understand it,was something different. Perhaps they were connected,perhaps they were not,but I don't think the Illuminati was created or ended with Weishaupt. The Bavarian Illuminati was created in 1976. These bloodlines go back well farther than that.

question #1: [why do some suppose these as Two Seperate Entities?]

my guess is that the 'Illuminati' are the visionaries, creative force, etc.
and they formed the 'NWO' = Agencies to bring their Goals to realization.

Right. So if the NWO exists then the Illuminati does as well because they are who create the NWO. That's why I was confused when certain people separated them and say the NWO exists but they don't know if the Illuiminati does. I guess now it's because they take the Bavarian Illuminati as the core one.

Perhap's this will sound silly but it all comes DOWN to Colorado's Int'll Airport.

Dallas

Whether you want to call them the Illuminati, Winds of Moriah or Committee of 300, no doubt there is a hidden group ushering in a New Age, for what I dont know. Im with Thomas Crowne,,,I call it "them" or "they"...there is a good possibility they arent even human but there is a Hidden Force and it is all around if you open your mind and eyes. All those freaky numbers surround 9-11,,,911 days between the madrid bombings and 9-11-01 ,the Number 11,,,,the lotto hitting 911, S & P closing at 911,,,,too much to be explained away as coincidence. When does repetitive coincidence become aknowledged as design?

Maybe someday we will all know

Originally posted by Dallas

Perhap's this will sound silly but it all comes DOWN to Colorado's Int'll Airport.

Dallas

That's a little beyond the Illuminati I'd say.

[edit on 25-7-2005 by Loungerist]

Originally posted by Loungerist
This is confusing to me because as I understand it they are one in the same

No, they are seperate groups. However, some people think that the Illuminati are behind the NWO, and that the Illuminati want to bring about the NWO, so thats where the two seperately originating ideas mix.

Because from what I've read of the Illuminati,Adam Weishaupt's short-lived society of the same name is/was something different.

Thats the thing. The bavarian illuminati are known to have existed. There was a lot of propaganda that was put out against them, making them into a sinister, satanic cabal that was trying to destroy the Church and the Governement and replace it with a 'evil secular' government. That propaganda is where we get 'The Illuminati" of conspiracy theory (as distinct from the bavarian Illuminati of history). And you can see that that 'evil secular world destroying government' that they want to bring about could be easily said to also be the NWO.

I'm not sure how either the Illuminati or NWO can exist without the other.

They're different ideas. The NWO started out, as far as I understand, as an idea/fear of a socialist-communist international dictatorship, one that would destroy religion, make a one world governement, and destroy everything that was traditionally good and replace it with new, evil, twisted values. The goal of the illuminati, in conspiracy theory, is generally the same, but one doesn't need the Illuminati for there to be NWO panics. I suppose that by definition tho whatever the Illuminati create would ultimately be a New World Order of one sort or another.

Which to my knowledge was just an offshoot of the true Illuminati.

This, of course, is dependant on how you perceive it. I'd say that The Illuminati that want to take over the world are creation of conspiracy theory that is an off-shoot of the propaganda that was put agianst the bavarian Illuminati.

dallas
I also wonder where the Knights Templar fit into the paiste?, if at all.

The Knights Templar also suffered the same propaganda attacks, from the same churchly authority. And the mason's suffer the same accusations too. The Catholic problem with masonry, the illuminati, and possibly even the knights templar, is disobediance of churchly authority, and even other authority, and secularism. There might actually be a similiarity between the theories connecting these groups because the original 'fear source' and panic over them all was the RCC. It 'set the mold' in other words, and then the rest of the world just ran with it.

loungerist
When I use the term "Illuminati",I'm referring to the people who consider themselves illuminated and control and know what's really driving the world event.

Might be best to follow TC's usage and just call them 'them'. Before the Bavarian Illuminati, no one was scared of some group called the Illuminati. What you are talking about is just refereing to any world devouring cabal as 'The Illuminati", which is probably too loose a usage. Hence the confusion, its from slack terms. IF an NWO came about, someone, by definition had to organize it. But there's no reason to say that that group must be called the Illuminati.

These bloodlines go back well farther than that.[1776]

Please demonstrate that.

This is actually intersting because it does bring up another generally accepted idea in the Illuminati conspiracy theory. That there are a group of super-powerful families who have allways had incredible power and have passed that power along to the modern era down thru their generations. This has nothing to do with the Bavarian Illuminati, as far as I understand it. I think (but am not sure) that none of the known Bavarian Illuminati were even in the families that are usually listed..

I think its interseting because the idea that the Bavarian Illuminati went underground and are working as puppet masters in the shadows is seperate from the idea that there are a dozen or so powerful families that are orchestrating world events from behind the scenes, and yet the 'powerful families' idea is almost refered to as 'The Illuminati". In a sense then, we really have three different conspiracies here, one is that the Illuminati are trying to detroy/takeover the world, another is that there are a set of powerful families that have been plotting it for generations, and another is that there will be a one world state with a one world governmetn, religion, and currency. Obviously the ideas are all similar, but I really think that they're three seperate ideas, even tho we often hear about the dozen Illuminati Families that are bring about the NWO. Its a conflation of ideas.

And just to conflate everything even more, the masonic conspiracy and often with it the Knights Templar conspiracy is usually thrown in there.

But if we look at it historically, the ideas are seperate. There was an Illuminati Scare, and that's continued on until today. And, seperately, there was an NWO scare, and that continued on as well. Some people combine the two. Others don't. The one does not imply tho other, except in a technical sort of way where any 'conquer the world' conspiracy is a NWO conspiracy.

[edit on 26-7-2005 by Nygdan]

Originally posted by Nygdan

loungerist
When I use the term "Illuminati",I'm referring to the people who consider themselves illuminated and control and know what's really driving the world event.

Might be best to follow TC's usage and just call them 'them'. Before the Bavarian Illuminati, no one was scared of some group called the Illuminati. What you are talking about is just refereing to any world devouring cabal as 'The Illuminati", which is probably too loose a usage. Hence the confusion, its from slack terms. IF an NWO came about, someone, by definition had to organize it. But there's no reason to say that that group must be called the Illuminati.

It's not that it must be called the illuminati so much as that's just what it happens to be called. Weishaupt may have formed a group using that term as it's official name,but the term and people existed before him.

These bloodlines go back well farther than that.[1776]

Please demonstrate that.

If you search the terms "illuminati" and "bloodlines" I'm sure you'll find a great deal of the lineage tracing.

This is actually intersting because it does bring up another generally accepted idea in the Illuminati conspiracy theory. That there are a group of super-powerful families who have allways had incredible power and have passed that power along to the modern era down thru their generations. This has nothing to do with the Bavarian Illuminati, as far as I understand it. I think (but am not sure) that none of the known Bavarian Illuminati were even in the families that are usually listed..

Not sure. As I said,I was always under the impression that the Bavarian Illuminati was something different from illuminati in general.

I think its interseting because the idea that the Bavarian Illuminati went underground and are working as puppet masters in the shadows is seperate from the idea that there are a dozen or so powerful families that are orchestrating world events from behind the scenes, and yet the 'powerful families' idea is almost refered to as 'The Illuminati".

The Illuminati are those who are privvy to and control the world events in actuality. The Bavarian Illuminati was a group who went by term officially. I see it like the name of a professional athletic team. There may be a Chicago Bulls basketball team but they are not actually bulls. It's just a moniker. Which is all the Bavarian Illuminati is so far as I know.

In a sense then, we really have three different conspiracies here, one is that the Illuminati are trying to detroy/takeover the world, another is that there are a set of powerful families that have been plotting it for generations, and another is that there will be a one world state with a one world governmetn, religion, and currency. Obviously the ideas are all similar, but I really think that they're three seperate ideas, even tho we often hear about the dozen Illuminati Families that are bring about the NWO. Its a conflation of ideas.

And just to conflate everything even more, the masonic conspiracy and often with it the Knights Templar conspiracy is usually thrown in there.

Looks like various parts of the same thing to me.