It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.

Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.

Thank you.

 

Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.

 

criss angel discussion...

page: 77
13
<< 74  75  76    78  79  80 >>

log in

join
share:

posted on Sep, 12 2007 @ 11:35 PM
link   
reply to post by keymaster
 



Funny how he doesn't say which tricks are real. I'm sure some of them are. Like the string coming out his eye and where he's suspended from hooks, etc.


I think it's illustrative to view these extreme stunts such as the hooks, in context.

First, remember that CA has this 'trick' in his arsenal. He would presumably perform it more than once, and there would be a succession of similar stunts as he built up to the more dangerous 'helicopter lift'.

Even extremely seasoned and skilled stuntmen will go as far as they can to troubleshoot a 'gag' or stunt. They'd measure the forces that developed underneath that type of helicopter, and include the momentum, and angluar force, shear forces, prop downwash forces and so on.

One might argue that this is such a dangerous stunt that CA only did it once for TV.

Well, this is a dead giveaway - you don't do these kinds of stunts without having experience.

The alternative is that it's not really his skin that the hooks are puncturing, and that they really go into the eyehole-loops of a support harness.

The Indian tribes that used to do that kind of ritual hanging (see 'A Man Called Horse'), would do them to bring them into a transcendental state; they'd be semi-conscious.

CA was clearly not in a fugue state. He was hanging from a prop and 'simulating' being in pain. The shear forces that would develop under a helicopter are far too great for skin to withstand, even with the resistance divided up among several 'hooks'. Imagine if one hook tore, then the load shift alone would be catastrophic.

Though he's a good illusionist, this is not the kind of trick you do for 'real' and expect to have a long career.


[edit on 13-9-2007 by Badge01]




posted on Sep, 13 2007 @ 12:14 AM
link   
[edit on 13-9-2007 by violet]



posted on Sep, 13 2007 @ 12:57 AM
link   
reply to post by Badge01
 


It did look like hooks were really sewn into his back, but you could be right and it is yet another faked stunt. At this point I'm not really believing much of what he says!

After lift off, they never zoomed in on him under the helicopter to get a better look. After it's over, there's his brother planting the Jesus suggestion how it looked like the Temptation of Christ, through the blood, the sweat and the tears, or whatever he said.



posted on Sep, 13 2007 @ 06:03 AM
link   
reply to post by violet
 

As stated, when Criss Angel refers to the Mind-Body-Spirit connection, it isn't always in the context of a stunt whereby he is being held up by hooks.

However, and this is a point that one will not know unless one has studied this and related topics at length: a Gift of Prana/Chi/PK can also allow one to self-mutilate the body without going the route of advanced yogic discipline.

For example, I remember seeing on a documentary, a link of which I will add when I find it, whereby you had a group of Muslims - much like in a Christian church that pursues the Gifts of the Spirit - piercing their body with sharp objects and neither feeling pain or bleeding, with little or no scarring afterwards. These were not fakirs. They first had to ask permission from a Muslim cleric to participate. A scientist, a black man, decided to give it a try and found that he could stick a sharp object through his cheek on the left side of his face and was astonished from the lack of pain, the lack of bleeding, and the lack of scarring. This indicates that when there are PK energies being channeled - which may be referred to as the Mind-Body-Spirit connection - then one can self-mutilate the body without pain, bleeding, or significant scarring.




posted on Sep, 13 2007 @ 06:51 AM
link   
The hook thing could be legit, as I stated, I saw on TV a whole troupe of performers hooked up like that being swung around and even carrying another person under them. The position of the piercings in all these kind of things is important. The back doesn't have much muscle mass or blood vessels where the hooks go. Your cheek, realativly speaking doesn't have that many nerve endings / pain receptors. That is why there is not that much pain or trauma associated with theses type of things. For example you don't see hook hangers hooked through the calf normally, too much mucscle and nerves there.



posted on Sep, 13 2007 @ 06:57 AM
link   
reply to post by violet
 


There are supplicants in India who really do have hooks piercing their backs, but they are not subjected to the type of forces generated by a helicopter. If you want to see the real thing, search Google for 'Superman suspension'. Warning the images are graphic. I found them but I'm not looking too closely. See if this is equal to what CA does.

What's instructive is to note where you, the viewer, make assumptions.

If you see them putting the hooks -in-, you make the assumption when they cut away to the 'copter, that he's still using this set up. In actuality they could have switched to a type of harness for the 'flight' portion.

He may not explicitly say anything - he's confident that the audience is making this assumption.

It's like someone doing the first bungee jump without testing the cord. Even extreme thrill seekers take some kind of precautions. Some stunts just are too uncertain to attempt.



posted on Sep, 13 2007 @ 07:16 AM
link   
I hit the motherload.

Here's my story: While assembling a wicked Gaming PC for a friend*, we were watching the 3rd season (DVD) of Arrested Development (probably one of my altime favorite shows.) In the episode "The Ocean Walker" the lead character "Michael Bluth" is getting married to a british chick who needs her green card, name "Rita"

The details of the episode are not what is so important to this thread, but the ending of the episode is.

After Michael calls the wedding off, he and Rita share a last moment with her saying (paraphrasing):
Rita: Will you should come visit me lots?
Michael: Well thats going to be hard, seeing as I have to cross the ocean.
Rita: You can always walk.

After that line, she kisses him goodbye and proceeds to walk away ACROSS THE WATER OF THE POOL! Thats right, she WALKED ON WATER

How did she do this? Well, its important to know that in the Bluth family, there are three brothers in total, and one of them is a magician (a bumbling magician that provides some of the best comic relief ever seen, but a magician none the less.) named Gob (pronounced Jobe)

When Michael asks Gob if that was part of his trick, Gob replies: No Michael, thats part of my illusion!

Afterwhich he accidentally sets Tobias Funke (the brother in law), played by The great David Cross, on fire.

There was a challenge laid before us by the believers, basically, they wanted us to find one shot of it done with props. Well I just did, and when i go home im going to get some video capture software, make a clip of the ending scene, post it on Youtube, then post it here.

Unless the believers want to claim that Rita has a Gift of Spirit too, I'd say thats game, set, (explitive) Match!

* For those that want to know, the specs on the PC are: Intel Quad core 2.44Ghz, 2 gigs DDR2 Dual Channel OCZ extreme Gaming RAM, nVidia 880GTS Super Clocked (overclocked) 640mb vid card. nVidia 680i SE SLI ready mainboard, with a 500 watt modular PSU (cant remember the name)

[edit on 13-9-2007 by InSpiteOf]



posted on Sep, 13 2007 @ 07:40 AM
link   
reply to post by Paul_Richard
 


I think I've seen this documentary. But if you find it, do post it please! If I recall, I was impressed by it. Don't fall off your chair!

I know CA's physical stunts aren't just with hooks.
It seems he uses this statement mostly for the "real" demonstrations. It is also used, as you point out, for other feats, that are illlusions he wants us to think are real. It's a convenient way for him to dodge the questions.

Is he really using this technique? Just because he can pull off what he seemingly does, where is the evidence of this? I know for you, that evidence is building walks & Luxor Float, but to us "Deniers", those are illusions.



posted on Sep, 13 2007 @ 07:45 AM
link   
reply to post by InSpiteOf
 

Can you provide a link to a video clip of this?

This way we would have some way of making a determination. Not having witnesses to confirm it already puts it in the illusionist category - like the tricks of Harry Blackstone Jr. and David Copperfield.



posted on Sep, 13 2007 @ 07:50 AM
link   

Originally posted by violet
I think I've seen this documentary. But if you find it, do post it please! If I recall, I was impressed by it. Don't fall off your chair!

Too late



Originally posted by violet
I know CA's physical stunts aren't just with hooks.
It seems he uses this statement mostly for the "real" demonstrations. It is also used, as you point out, for other feats, that are illlusions he wants us to think are real. It's a convenient way for him to dodge the questions.

I must have taken too many vitamins this morning, as I agree with you.



Originally posted by violet
Is he really using this technique? Just because he can pull off what he seemingly does, where is the evidence of this? I know for you, that evidence is building walks & Luxor Float, but to us "Deniers", those are illusions.

Mainly his high levitations and teleportations.

Hey...if you find a YouTube or Google video somewhere of that documentary we both saw, please post a link. Thanks.



posted on Sep, 13 2007 @ 08:00 AM
link   

Originally posted by Paul_Richard
reply to post by InSpiteOf
 

Can you provide a link to a video clip of this?

This way we would have some way of making a determination. Not having witnesses to confirm it already puts it in the illusionist category - like the tricks of Harry Blackstone Jr. and David Copperfield.



AS i said in the above post



There was a challenge laid before us by the believers, basically, they wanted us to find one shot of it done with props. Well I just did, and when i go home im going to get some video capture software, make a clip of the ending scene, post it on Youtube, then post it here.


So when i get home, ill find some video capture software and post it as soon as i can.

Also I just, ahem, "Aquired" Criss Angels levitation DVD and ill take a look at it either friday or saturday for any relevent information.

Edit: To the bolded in your post PR, are you conceeding that his water walk may be an illusion? Or are you saying that the one in Arrested Development is?

Because my point is this, they are both illusions!

[edit on 13-9-2007 by InSpiteOf]



posted on Sep, 13 2007 @ 08:16 AM
link   
reply to post by violet
 


Think of it this way. CA is really more into impressing other 'magicians' with the level of skill and legerdemain in his gags.

If he REALLY had to cut or pierce, or blow himself up, then maybe that would impress the stuntmen, or the ritual scarification folks, but the top magicians would think 'oh, that's low, that's not magic, that's gross, actually bleeding'.

With all the times he does these 'pain or injury' illusions he'd be a mass of scars and we'd possibly have to conclude he had a psychological, uh, problem.

Plus, look at him. He is nothing if not vanity personified, and very careful of his physical good looks. He's not going to scar himself to please a crowd of yokels at the Luxor, or anywhere else.



posted on Sep, 13 2007 @ 11:27 AM
link   

Originally posted by InSpiteOf
So when i get home, ill find some video capture software and post it as soon as i can.

Also I just, ahem, "Aquired" Criss Angels levitation DVD and ill take a look at it either friday or saturday for any relevent information.

Acquired?


When I get around to it, I guess I will go out and buy a copy of that myself.


Originally posted by InSpiteOf
Edit: To the bolded in your post PR, are you conceeding that his water walk may be an illusion? Or are you saying that the one in Arrested Development is?

My stance is that if it is done on a magician's stage or inside a building that is specially rigged, and there are no corroborating witnesses to say that there were no props, then it is likely just an illusion. Criss Angel did his "water walk" with an outside pool in broad daylight, with people swimming all around him and even under him as he was doing it, and then there were people there who said that they saw him "walk on water."

I haven't seen any substantial evidence that he uses witnesses that are paid to lie. If he did, then there would have been many other magicians that would have done Criss Angel-type feats long before Angel made it to the public eye. If he just uses paid-off witnesses and film editing, then veteran illusionists like the late Harry Blackstone Jr. and David Copperfield would have done their own "walking on water," high levitations, and teleportations back in the 1980s. They didn't. They didn't because they have no such Gift of Prana/Chi/Ki/Psychokinesis.

Sure...you and others could probably come up with a way to have an illusion of walking on water with props. It probably won't look as good as the real thing.

But hey, I wouldn't mind seeing it anyway.

You know...just for laughs.


If you and the others would like to see a good example of someone who used props to "walk on water," view the "Magic" music video by Ric Ocasek. If you look closely, you can see the transparent (likely plastic) platform or sheets just under the water line that he stepped on when he walked around the pool. Note how his foot impacts the water and then compare it to when Criss Angel steps on the water - a considerable difference - as Angel is actually floating, not really stepping on to something.


Maybe you can make your illusion look as good as that of Ric Ocasek.





posted on Sep, 13 2007 @ 12:21 PM
link   

Originally posted by Paul_Richard
My stance is that if it is done on a magician's stage or inside a building that is specially rigged, and there are no corroborating witnesses to say that there were no props, then it is likely just an illusion. Criss Angel did his "water walk" with an outside pool in broad daylight, with people swimming all around him and even under him as he was doing it, and then there were people there who said that they saw him "walk on water."


Well it was an outdoor pool.

From what I remember, there was one person that swam by him (CA), and one person that swam under him.

If Criss Angels illusions can be replicated with props, does it not stand to reason that its possible and probable that Criss Angel himself used props?


a considerable difference - as Angel is actually floating, not really stepping on to something.


Uhh, it sure seems to me like his feet/shoes are dipping a good inch or more into the water of the pool. Sure doesnt make a great case for floating now does it.

[edit on 13-9-2007 by InSpiteOf]



posted on Sep, 13 2007 @ 01:50 PM
link   

Originally posted by InSpiteOf
Well it was an outdoor pool.

Maybe in the other vid which I have not seen, but with the one with Criss Angel walking on water, he is doing so with an outside pool with no ceiling.


Originally posted by InSpiteOf
From what I remember, there was one person that swam by him (CA), and one person that swam under him.

There was about a half a dozen people around him as he was making his way across the pool.


Originally posted by InSpiteOf
If Criss Angels illusions can be replicated with props, does it not stand to reason that its possible and probable that Criss Angel himself used props?

If he did it with props, it would look like the Ric Ocasek music video: you wouldn't have people all around him, swimming near him, and swimming under him. Not so in the music video.


Originally posted by Paul_Richard
...a considerable difference - as Angel is actually floating, not really stepping on to something.



Originally posted by InSpiteOf
Uhh, it sure seems to me like his feet/shoes are dipping a good inch or more into the water of the pool.

Which in itself could be another indication of floating instead of walking with props. With Plexiglas or something like it, it would have to be close to the surface in order to provide the proper illusion.


Originally posted by InSpiteOf
Sure doesnt make a great case for floating now does it.

Yes...it does.

It would detract from the effect if he walked above the water line and there is a significant difference in the contact of Criss' feet and shoes with that of Ric's. It looks more like the former is floating than walking on water; while the latter looks like he is walking on Plexiglas.

Discrimination comes with experience.



posted on Sep, 13 2007 @ 02:09 PM
link   

Originally posted by Paul_Richard

Originally posted by InSpiteOf
From what I remember, there was one person that swam by him (CA), and one person that swam under him.

There was about a half a dozen people around him as he was making his way across the pool.


There were half a dozen people to the sides of the pool, id hardly say they were around him. There were only 2 people that got close to him.



If he did it with props, it would look like the Ric Ocasek music video: you wouldn't have people all around him, swimming near him, and swimming under him. Not so in the music video.


Whats to say it woud look the same? Your speculating.


Which in itself could be another indication of floating instead of walking with props. With Plexiglas or something like it, it would have to be close to the surface in order to provide the proper illusion.

And your of course can prove this point with a link, source, or video?
Because i think your wrong. One of the things with plexiglass is it looks transparent and invisible, in water, period Not just close to the surface.



posted on Sep, 13 2007 @ 02:57 PM
link   

Originally posted by InSpiteOf
There were half a dozen people to the sides of the pool, id hardly say they were around him. There were only 2 people that got close to him.

As he walked, the crowd got closer and there were about a half a dozen people with him in the pool, with one of them swimming under him. You will not find that with people who are just performing an illusion of walking on water - because they would collide with the platform that is holding the person up above the water.


Originally posted by Paul_Richard
If he did it with props, it would look like the Ric Ocasek music video: you wouldn't have people all around him, swimming near him, and swimming under him. Not so in the music video.


Originally posted by InSpiteOf
Whats to say it woud look the same? Your speculating.

It wouldn't look the same because the obstructions under the water would prevent it from looking the same and you wouldn't have people all around him, with one or more swimming under him.



Originally posted by Paul_Richard
Which in itself could be another indication of floating instead of walking with props. With Plexiglas or something like it, it would have to be close to the surface in order to provide the proper illusion.



Originally posted by InSpiteOf
And your of course can prove this point with a link, source, or video?
Because i think your wrong. One of the things with plexiglass is it looks transparent and invisible, in water, period Not just close to the surface.

How do you think Ric Ocasek performed the illusion of walking on water?

The fine eye can discriminate between someone who is floating and someone who is obviously walking on a flat and hard surface.

One more thing...

This is a Net forum. You will not find in here proof of anything.

Let that sink in.

What we have to work with is personal experience, eyewitness testimony, critical analysis, logical extrapolation, and perhaps also on occasion some intuitive insight - the last of which is not needed in this case
.

Does this mean you are not going to pursue showing us an illusion of walking on water?

If you do, I want to see people around him or her and one or more people swimming underneath.




[edit on 13-9-2007 by Paul_Richard]



posted on Sep, 13 2007 @ 04:42 PM
link   
Can I just add something which is blatantly obvious.

As he's stepping across the water, there's enough space for people to swim underneath him 'through' the columns that would be supporting his feet/body. Do you know how big the people are who swam next to him? Were they children or adults?

I've seen the video and there is a case for people actually swimming 'beneath' Criss and through 'the supports' he's standing on.




posted on Sep, 13 2007 @ 05:03 PM
link   

Originally posted by Badge01
If you see them putting the hooks -in-, you make the assumption when they cut away to the 'copter, that he's still using this set up. In actuality they could have switched to a type of harness for the 'flight' portion.


It's something to consider because there were no close-ups of him under the copter. Also no other people were there to witness it, except his family & crew.



posted on Sep, 13 2007 @ 05:20 PM
link   
reply to post by Paul_Richard
 


One of those stooge videos showed the same Oriental girl in the pool and also in another episode, where he floated up and she was saying how amazng it was. So this is two seperate events that show they're being staged.

For the Walk On Water scene:
I think there was a thin transparent walkway - or bridge, that zig-zags about an inch below the surface of the water. It may have been quite small, constructed like flat clear stepping stones with mis-shapen edges, so no straight lines or edges would be exposed. The people keep swimming and splashing around him to agitate the water, so you'll never get a clear view. This set-up would also allow them plenty of room to swim under him. That's how I would construct it. The manner in which he walks across it, even looks like he has to locate each step.
Still, it looks cool!



[edit on 13-9-2007 by violet]




top topics



 
13
<< 74  75  76    78  79  80 >>

log in

join