criss angel discussion...

reply to post by pavil


Let's say you were at the Luxor light thing. You look out your balcony and you see a guy on top of the Pyramid, bathed in super high intensity light, with a helicopter circling it.

The guy might be strapped onto a Lexan post with a metal frame running up his leg, but it's STILL an amazing feat.

I'd be pointing and going nuts too, just for that part.

He just takes an ordinary 'trick' like standing on an 'invisible pedestal' and makes it High Theatre, high drama. That's a common '90s illusion. Moving a whole building or something, like David Copperfield liked to do. Now, -that's- a gift, getting paid for doing stuff like that.



[edit on 29-8-2007 by Badge01]

reply to post by Paul_Richard


Oh man, you really didn't see the roller coster trick?

I'll explain this trick and watch it closely. He screwed this one up good.

1) He gets into a wooden cylinder that is on the roller coster track.
- notice he has a grey short sleve shirt on

2) He gets covered with a paper cover on the front of the cylinder and sticks his hands out 2 circles high up on the paper.
- notice how the cylinder allows access below the platform where the people are on.
- these are where 1 or 2 more people jump up

3) He claims that he needs to 'pull in' the little paper flaps that were where the cricles were cut out
- this is where chris pulls out his hands and then the other 1 or 2 people put their hands in there
- notice that the hand on the left now has a long sleve black shirt (chirs had a short sleve grey shirt)

4) He runs to where the coster is parked (with some camo clothes). Claims he is the 'camera man'.
- He is talking this whole time, so either he was talking and people in the car didnt hear him... or it was recored before.

5) The coster busts thru the paper and he is already in the front seat.

Originally posted by pavil
reply to post by eyewitness86

 

For the Freemont levitation, have you every been down there, It's pretty crowded even late at night. Anyhow. The girl that was "selected" was part of it. I forget the actual mechanism, but the girl is "rigged" for it. I know, I know "invisible rigs that you have NO EVIDENCE for" . Nonetheless what I say is true.

First thing I thought was she was a plant. The body language gave them away as did Angel. He walked up to the guy and asked him to follow. The girl, without hesitation walks off with the guy. She moved before CA got to invite her verbally. From that moment, I thought plant. Then he selects her for out of all of those present for the illusion, then asks if she can be hypnotised. Wrong way round.

The girl is so obviously arched, due to being supported. How I am not sure yet but she is a plant. Fact is, if I did know I would be the one here with a fan club and a thread titled. "Something Smells Discussion".

Thanks for collating all the links to vids. I have on and off, been coming to this thread but never posted. I thought that the delusion of someone having "Chi-Kinesis" etc would die a death. I can't believe its still going. Still that's cults for you..

I have followed the use of the ignore with amusement. I personally can't understand how a forum with open dialogue and heavily moderated needs such a thing? It would be like attending a meeting and putting fingers in your ears and going "La la la la la".

I wasn't even going to dignify this topic with posts but will do, occasionally... the thread needs to know that there is life off of this board.

reply to post by aquarius3733

You wouldn't perchance have a video clip of that, would you?

reply to post by Paul_Richard


Nope, just watched it on TV last night. I don't record from my TV much. It has to appear on the web at some point.

I just searched google and noone posted yet... I'll keep looking let me know if you find it also.


Edit:
I do have DVR and rewinded it about 10 times, showed it to my wife.

[edit on 29-8-2007 by aquarius3733]

" Invisible rigs that no one can see".."BUT, what I say is true"!! Oh my. What a convincing argument. What you are saying is ' trust me ' and I apologize for not doing so. How can I trust the lack of proof? How can anyone trust the observations made here? Unreal.

First you admit that you are unable to come up with anything more substantial than ' she looks like a plant ' , or ' she arched her back ' or ' Fremont street is crowded ', even though those issues are totally unrelated to the fact that NO props are seen even at close range. The film is clear. There are NO props!! Yet all we hear is how something doesn't ' feel right ' instead of some ways it might be the way they say.

By the way, WHO is this manufacturer of the invisible rigs? I really want to know. Oh, let me guess: It is Criss own company and no other scientist or entrepreneur can come up with anything as good as Criss's, right? He is the only one on earth that has invisible props, correct?

As to the siliness that keeps being repeated about the supposed ' platform ' that Criss is allegedly standing on: The light from that beam would show ANY support or platform..unless of course it is made from the same stuff as the invisible rigs and wires are!! The fact that the Luxor Hotel staff says that NO platforms or props were used in the event means nothing...of course they are all liars and cover up stooges for Criss, just like all of the thousands of paid witnesses and staff members..OK, I get it now..

How can anyone say with a straight face : " Even though what I am claiming is purely speculative and despite the fact that there is absolutely no evidence that supports my view., it is the correct and only answer". That takes nerve, if not intellectual honesty or a serious attempt to persuade. Only people with OPEN MINDS can be persuaded one way or the other; people who have their minds made up and preconceived notions firmly in charge of the reality that they will accept, cannot be persuaded no matter what the evidence or facts..or the LACK THEREOF!!

If I had a position as totally empty and suppositional as the denier's , I would be ashamed to trot out a total lack of evidence as proof of anything. I could not in good conscience tell someone that even though I could not see something in the physical realm , it must be there. If it cannot be seen and is a physical object and is material by nature, how can it be invisible? Has the world of props for illusionists gotten past the abilities of the great laboratories of the world? Are they able to produce platforms that are totally invisible? And ' rigs ' that also cannot be seen ot felt? Dozens of people inches away all state that they cannot see anything and the camera shows nothing, yet the deniers insist that it is all really there and the fact that it is unseen is a non-issue!! imagine that!!

Criss does ILLUSIONS people..as well as ' demonstrations ' and showing the roller coaster, which I have not seen yet, may or may not be an event, maybe it is an illusion. But that means nothing. Criss does all kinds of events, and that is one reason he is the top dog at the moment; he can do things that other illusionists can, and he can do things that NO ONE ELSE on earth can, and he has proven it. The nonsense that all the others are just not motivated to try the same things is laughable. Imitation is the most sincere form of flattery and legions of young performers are no doubt very disappointed that they are not able to buy Criss Tricks at a store and duplicate his events.

The facts remain; no one can or has repeated CRiss events. No one has shown any props at these events. No one has proven any film trickery or of any paid witnesses. Nothing. None. Nada. Nyet. Nein.

And still my most telling issues are ignored or answered with silliness. I gues with a quiver like the deniers, loaded with crooked arrows, hitting the mark may well prove impossible for them; so far it seems that way.

Originally posted by eyewitness86
The film is clear. There are NO props!! Yet all we hear is how something doesn't ' feel right ' instead of some ways it might be the way they say.

The film is not clear It has gone through post production editing for quality, clarity, and content.

Please answer my previous challenge found here CA discussion challenge: From ISO
Failure to answer my challenge will constitue a consession of your argument and an assumption on my part that you cannot answer my challenge because you cannot fulfill the requirements.

Originally posted by eyewitness86
" Invisible rigs that no one can see".."BUT, what I say is true"!! Oh my. What a convincing argument. What you are saying is ' trust me ' and I apologize for not doing so. How can I trust the lack of proof? How can anyone trust the observations made here? Unreal.

According to the youtube comments the girl that is levitated is the same assistant that does the Metamorphosis with him and get the flash burn. The do look similar. I couldn't find the whole video of the metamorphosis where they put her in the ambulance. The You tube comments also seem to indicate that when CA did this same illusion on one of his first specials (they word it a few years back), I am guessing one of the ABC family specials, it is the EXACT SAME GIRL as the one on the Fremont shot.

Can someone look it up and post them, I am being ignored.

I am tired of doing all the leg work for these two. It is a trick that requires the person being levitated to be "in" on it and she is specially rigged for it. That is all I will say. Someone else can prove it to them.

What if that girl CA never met before turns out to either be his assistant in the one trick or the SAME GIRL in an older show eyewitness? Will you give up or just admit that "of course, this one is one of his illusions, but his other stuff is real and cannot be disproven".

WHAT IF..WHAT IF..Maybe..If only..The girl looks like...Everyone knows...People cannot....yadda, yadda, yadda. The same old same old. No replies of merit, only the old suppositions. I NEVER get an intelligent and detailed reply to my questions and have stated why that is a fact, and yet all that gets ignored while the silly imaginations go wild in spite of the evidence.

The film was NOT ALTERED!! Don't you know the difference between EDITING and ALTERING ? Editing, as we have said over and over again, is the process of making a number of camera shots into a smooth and viewable and coherent package. It does NOT involve making changes to make it appear that something that did not happen did, or vice versa. NO ONE has EVER come forward and proven, shown or alleged that Criss uses alteration of film in any way. That would be stupid, if caught he would be ruined and if one of the paid employees who did the actual trickery told about it Criss would be finished.

But that has never happened, a fact that the deniers always avoid like the plague. because the deniers canno and will not address the main issues, and continue obfuscations and silly side stpes around the truth, we can assume that they have no better replies than what we have seen already and therefore we can rest easy knowing that there has been NO replies of merit that show in any way that Criss uses props in his high levitations. the deniers don't want to talk about that and the other videos I posted, as that would be too telling.

On we go, deniers with nothing but guesses and us with all of the evidence any rational and perceptive person could need.

Originally posted by Badge01
By the way the name of the trick is the 'Surgical Reveal'. The trick was invented by Wayne Houchin, who performs street magic up in Chico California, and Alex Lourido who invented the 'Butter Coin' illusion. Criss bought up the rights to the surgical reveal trick and also negotiated with Wayne to use his 'coin in a soda can' trick.

Oh, you want more? Here's his website:

waynehouchin.com...

www.ellusionist.com...

Good find!
Good luck opening up their minds !

reply to post by aquarius3733

I only got to see part of it last night, as I was busy doing other things.

Yes, if you can find it online and post a link here, that would be helpful.

Thanks.

Originally posted by Paul_Richard
On Mindfreak last night Criss did a teleportation onto a moving roller coaster that plowed into him and he simultaneously switched places with a cameraman in the same front seat.
It may be too new to be on YouTube but I am looking for it now.

And before you carry on embarassing yourself how this was "real" and done by TK, you did hear him say he was "going to attempt the umtimate ILLUSION" right? Nonetheless, it was a great stunt.
I'll try to look for it too.

There are an abundance of other video sites besides youtube, that have larger screens and better quality. Google search engine only seems to bring up google & youtube video uploads. Try AOL, it has Criss, myspace, msn live, etc, and look up other video search sites. I've seen lots of CA vids youtube doesn't have. There are also other ways to watch files, that we won't mention, these are DVD quality, much better for the zoom feature.

Originally posted by eyewitness86
Criss does all kinds of events, and that is one reason he is the top dog at the moment; he can do things that other illusionists can, and he can do things that NO ONE ELSE on earth can, and he has proven it. The nonsense that all the others are just not motivated to try the same things is laughable. Imitation is the most sincere form of flattery and legions of young performers are no doubt very disappointed that they are not able to buy Criss Tricks at a store and duplicate his events.

Eyewitness86...you once again state it like it is.

I couldn't have put it better myself.

If it were all illusions, then those magicians who were affluent when he was a boy (and who could supposedly purchase all the high-tech equipment ahead of him) would have been levitating over sidewalks and flying around golf courses long before Christopher Nicholas Sarantakos changed his name to Criss Angel and entered the global illusionist spotlight.

They did not because they could not. Period.

Despite many who claim to understand how it is done as an illusion, they still can't do it.

Originally posted by eyewitness86
The film was NOT ALTERED!! Don't you know the difference between EDITING and ALTERING ? Editing, as we have said over and over again, is the process of making a number of camera shots into a smooth and viewable and coherent package. It does NOT involve making changes to make it appear that something that did not happen did, or vice versa. NO ONE has EVER come forward and proven, shown or alleged that Criss uses alteration of film in any way. That would be stupid, if caught he would be ruined and if one of the paid employees who did the actual trickery told about it Criss would be finished.

We are quite clear on the defintion of editing.

As pavil has posted more than once, this Video refutes your claim of no video trickery! If you believe that you can refute theclaims made in this video, and I mean all the claims! then do so. Cloud and sun position, knee and foot position included.

You cannot simply blanket this video as an attempt to edit it for time constraints. Different camera angles do not account for time elapsed shadows and cloud positions!

Hi InSpiteOf,

Interesting discussion...wouldn't you say?

Originally posted by InSpiteOf
Outside of PR and his personal experience, No corroborative evidence of Criss Angel's Gift of Spirit has been presented.

We ask for evidence of you claims because you have presented nothing that remotely resembles evidence.

If you can refute my claims, please do so, point by point

Thanks for mentioning me as a reference of personal experience.

I appreciate that and it points to you being a critical thinker and open minded.

Perhaps you missed my earlier post today. This is easy to do considering how much goes on in here. One wonders if they will eventually need a new server for this thread.

Hope the mods won't mind if I reiterate some of my earlier post:

Originally posted by InSpiteOf
To the underlined: Where are these witnesses from around the world? Show me the independant testimony of them.

Right here in ATS we have excellent testimony about Criss Angel from Alex (aka 1 Tru Criss Angel Fan) that goes above and beyond just seeing him perform a high levitation off of a magician's stage:

Originally posted by 1 Tru Criss Angel Fan
... I Know Criss Angel Personally. I Live Really Close To Him. I Visited His Secret Cabaret One Day, And He Said, "Now Alex, I Want You To Close Your Eyes." He Gave Me A Second Or Two And He Said "Is That Completed?" And I Said, "Check!" He Said, "Now Stick Your Hands Out, Cross Your Feet, And Your Fingers." I Said "Check!" And He Said, "Now, Breathe. Gently." And Right Then, I Lifted Into The Air, He Yelled "Open Your Eyes, You Motherfugger!" I Opened My Eyes, And I Was Levitated 15 Feet Off The Ground.

Alex in ATS testified that he was actually levitated by Criss Angel FIFTEEN FEET IN THE AIR

Originally posted by Paul_Richard
Hi InSpiteOf,

Interesting discussion...wouldn't you say?

Absolutly, one of my favorite discussions.

Thanks for mentioning me as a reference of personal experience.

No problem, as i am sure you are aware, I hold both you and eyewitness in the utmost respect.

Though many may not share my position in this regard, i consider you as an expert (as much as one could be) on the relms of the spiritual, and I am sure you know why.

You and eyewitness have lead a valiant fight against our position, and regardless of our differences, I can easily call you both (by that i mean both you and eyewitness) friend and foe (in the ATS spirit of course.) Both of you have challenged my conventional thinking and powers of deductive reasoning.

We deniers may sit on the opposite side of the fence on this issue, but if it came down to it, i believe many of us would have tonns in common with each other.

I hope one day we have a massive ATS convention, where we can all sit down and hash out our differences, and chuckle at our similarities.

I appreciate that and it points to you being a critical thinker and open minded.

I try

Right here in ATS we have excellent testimony about Criss Angel from Alex (aka 1 Tru Criss Angel Fan) that goes above and beyond just seeing him perform a high levitation off of a magician's stage

To be honest, I didnt miss it, i just forgot to comment on it.

I can respect your position on this case of eyewitness testimony. But for me there are certain issues that need to be addressed before i can consider this legitimate.

1) Alex has left no contact information for us. No address to verify, no phone number to contact him, nothing.
I can understand why he would not leave such things on an internet forum, but unfortunately, this leaves much to be desired in the ways of direct eyewitness testimony.

2) Alex by his own admition was part of an unfilmed, undocumented event. All we have is his word, and because this is an internet forum, his word is not much to go on. Especially since he has not built up any repore with this site and has not posted since.

Those are my main issues with believing his story. If he was a more respected member of this site, or even he had built up some level of reputation on this site, i would be more inclined to believe him. But i have yet to see another post by Alex.

Edited for clarity and spelling

[edit on 29-8-2007 by InSpiteOf]

reply to post by eyewitness86

How can anyone say with a straight face : " Even though what I am claiming is purely speculative and despite the fact that there is absolutely no evidence that supports my view., it is the correct and only answer". That takes nerve, if not intellectual honesty or a serious attempt to persuade. Only people with OPEN MINDS can be persuaded one way or the other; people who have their minds made up and preconceived notions firmly in charge of the reality that they will accept, cannot be persuaded no matter what the evidence or facts..or the LACK THEREOF!!

I have to ask, is that not what you are doing yourself? The only "proof" you give is in the form of videos. As you said before, "If we were in a courtroom and the jury was asked to believe one of us, who would they believe? If they were shown the films, with NO evidence of tampering, and were shown the witnesses reactions while they see the events, which has NEVER been shown to be coerced or paid for in any way, ever, we would win hands down." Problem is video is not conclusive proof without being analyzed for proof of not being altered. We do not have the actual copy of any of this video to analyze. We have what was released on television and the internet. I am simply saying that I have no problem believing that there is such a thing as telekinesis, however you cannot believe that perhaps you are being fooled by Criss Angel. I have repeatedly said that I don't disbelieve anything other than Criss Angel himself. You however, will not even entertain the idea that perhaps it is a trick. Why is that?

Criss does all kinds of events, and that is one reason he is the top dog at the moment; he can do things that other illusionists can, and he can do things that NO ONE ELSE on earth can, and he has proven it. The nonsense that all the others are just not motivated to try the same things is laughable. Imitation is the most sincere form of flattery and legions of young performers are no doubt very disappointed that they are not able to buy Criss Tricks at a store and duplicate his events.

That is because, as I've said before, he has practiced and practiced and practiced. He has been doing this since around six years old. He has possession of his tricks because he invented his own personal twists on many different tricks and no one else knows exactly how he performs them. No one ever said others were unmotivated to try. In fact I said others were probably practicing as we type. However, you cannot go out and perform a trick and fail at it and expect to be paid well. It takes years to perfect these acts. I wouldn't expect anyone to be able to duplicate all of his magic for several more years, maybe not until his death when his tricks will go up for auction to the highest bidder. Actually you can buy many of his smaller tricks at magic shops the world over. If he released everything he had, why would anyone watch him?

On another note.
I have been researching levitation on its own. This is a brief timeline of the magic of levitation as I've found so far.
John Nevil Maskelyne (1839-1917) -purported inventor of the trick
Stolen by Paul Valadon (1867-1913) he was Maskelyne's stagehand
sold to Harry Kellar
Harry Kellar(1849-1922)-performed the levitation act until his death
Harry Blackstone, Sr (1885-1965)purchased from Kellar estate
After this it gets a little fuzzy. Blackstone had a son, Harry Blackstone, Jr. It would stand to reason that his son performed the trick. You may remember him as "Blackstone". However he died in, 1997? After this, who knows? Many other magicians have performed levitation acts of their own. But this seems to be the line of the "original" levitation act. Everyone puts their own spin on it and makes it a little different.

Hi ISO et al,

Guess its finally time to contact 1 Tru Criss Angel Fan, aka Alex

I will start with a U2U and go from there.

It would be really cool if we could organize a gathering to actually go and see Criss Angel when he does his street magick.

And bring several video cameras.

That is, if you guys don't mind me acting somewhat peculiar in the process - like becoming dizzy and disoriented from GE astral abuse.

It might be fun.

Well...sort of.

Maybe more for you than for me.

I stick out to Group Entities in an incarnate crowd like a giant target sign.

I can see it now after our return...

Well...did you find Criss Angel in Las Vegas?

Sure...we knew that we honed in on him performing telekinesis when Paul Richard passed out in the crowd

Since he was knocked unconscious anyway, Criss decided to use him in one of his street levitations. It will be in the next Mindfreak episode.



Also, they would know when we are coming - even if we didn't announce it in advance (in here).

Oh well.

Keep up the good fight, however you interpret that to be



[edit on 29-8-2007 by Paul_Richard]

reply to post by eyewitness86


Eyewitness, I am not going to get into a semantics debate of Altering vs. Editing. You admitted that CA intentionally somehow erased the man walking in that one part to not "distract" from CA. Previously you said CA never did such things. Anyway that is all BS as it is pretty obvious from the video record that it is Multiple takes of the same Levitation.

Will you go on record as stating that CA doesn't substantially alter/edit any other "demonstrations" and that all of his videos actually depict one and only one event, not multiple takes blended to look as if they are one?

Try to be very clear in your answer.

You still didn't answer my hypothetical question, if it can be shown that the girl in the Fremont video is either his assistant in another video or the same girl in an earlier levitation, will that change your beliefs in what CA actually does?

I have tried to answer every question you pose and if I have not please restate it and I will attempt to answer it.

Originally posted by InSpiteOf
...as I am sure you are aware, I hold both you and eyewitness in the utmost respect.

Reminds me of the exchange of words in the sword dueling scene from the film, The Princess Bride.

Originally posted by InSpiteOf
Though many may not share my position in this regard, I consider you as an expert (as much as one could be) on the realms of the spiritual, and I am sure you know why.

Thank you.

Originally posted by InSpiteOf
You and eyewitness have lead a valiant fight against our position, and regardless of our differences, I can easily call you both (by that I mean both you and eyewitness) friend and foe (in the ATS spirit of course.) Both of you have challenged my conventional thinking and powers of deductive reasoning.

This whole debate has been a challenge to all of us.

You are a scholar and a diplomat