criss angel discussion...

Originally posted by InSpiteOf
I judge Criss Angel as one that does not have such a gift because he is a trained Illusionist. If he possessed this gift you speak of, he would use it in all walks of life, at all times.

But of course you have an answer for that little conundrum. Something along the lines of "the group entity only allows him to do it sometimes, and not others."

That answer to me is too much of a cop-out. How does he convince this group entity to grant him his abilities when he does large stunts, but not small ones? If they were so picky, could it not be thought that they may just drop him one day? I dont believe he is in touch with a group entity, i do not believe they are giving him these abilities, i do not believe he has a gift.

Some clarification is needed here.

Whether or not you have come to know that all powerful Gifts of the Spirit thus far stem from discarnate communities (usually on the fourth plane) or Group Entities, is neither here nor there. If you study those with Gifts of this nature, you will learn that they cannot turn them on and off like a light switch. It isn't that Criss Angel's Group Entity "allows him to do it sometimes and not others." It is that his GE does not have the level of energy in order to manifest his Gift of Telekinesis ALL OF THE TIME.

That's the key difference

But to be objective about Criss Angel and his GE, I would not make the assumption as you do that the energy is not there for him as much as you think. He may indeed be using it much more in his life than he leads people to believe or that he even knows himself. For you see, Group Entities have their own agendas too and often work independently around those they channel through and around.

Basic psychological and sociological analysis.

And Criss Angel does not have to "convince" his discarnate community to grant him a Gift of Telekinesis. That was decided decades ago. Discarnate communities ELECT their prophets BEFORE they incarnate. He knew prior to his birth that he would have a Gift of Telekinesis - starting as a boy - which he did.

Originally posted by InSpiteOf
Your reasons for believing he is in touch with such an entity is based on faith and personal experiance. My reasons for not believing is based on logic (he's an entertainer) and personal experiance.

I know your happy in your smug position but you are just like me, unwilling to accept anything that counters your position. The only difference is, i dont put little smiling rolling faces at the end of my post to show you up.

My perspective is not based on faith, but you are partially right in that it is based on personal experience. It is also based on spiritual correspondence with discarnate Saints, with logical analysis and extrapolation, and with an abundance of direct and indirect confirmations over the years.

You misinterpret the smiling rolling faces. They are not there to offend or to "show anyone up," but to keep things upbeat. Nothing more.

Last season, Criss introduced viewers to some of the biggest scams ever perpetrated. This time, Criss exposes even more scams as he becomes a certified psychic and divulges their secrets. He shows some common scams when he sticks friends with the bill at a restaurant and loses his expensive necklace unveiling the ultimate scam of all time. Then, Criss will reveal the ultimate secret, the words that unlock the key to attaining anything you desire: sex, riches and power.

Source: Criss Angel On A&E At 10 PM EST Tonight



[edit on 31-7-2007 by Paul_Richard]

Originally posted by ignorant_ape

Originally posted by MrdDstrbr
Of course; the point is that the independent photos/footage do exist, and there are many independent witnesses out there who can verify that CA levitates with no props, no invisible cranes or hot-air balloons, nothing. Also, you can't call "camera tricks and film editing" on the independent footage..........

if this mountain of " independant " witness testionny and vid footage exists where is it hosted ?

we want to review it - in its entrity - not as 2 second edited splices

Well, I did some searching earlier today and couldn't find a central site for CA fans/witnesses to upload photos or video. Maybe something will turn up on Youtube or Google vid, who knows....

also - as you brought it up - look at the " independant " footage spliced into Mr angels boadcast segment closely

see anything unusual ?

look again :

lighting , exposure , colour balance are all consistant with angels own footage

that is a chuffing miracle

also tracking , framing and stability are all spot on - no wonk , no jerkiness
.....
the " independant footage " in the luxor atrium is indistinguashable from angels own - why is that ?

Well I rewatched it several times and I didn't see that at all. The footage from the independent witnesses is more unsteady and there's a variety of different lighting, color balances etc.

Besides, here AGAIN we have the accusation that the witnesses are all "in on it" - with NO proof whatsoever of that....

I personally think alot of it is fake, notice how he claims his stunts are "Illusions?"

Yea I totally hear what youre also saying about the fake actors in the crowds. Theyre horrible liars.

hi folks - just two quickies

first - the full magnitude of the commercial relationship between mr angel and the luxor casino , LV :

he has a mind freak shop - right there in the luxor retail section

vid of shop opening

what does thjat proove - simply thjat the luxor now has a vested commervial interest in the " mindfreak enterprise "

bear that in mind when people try to tell you that the luxor is an indeperndant entity


second - " independant witness vids " i offer no comment on the execution iof this stunt steam roller vid except to make one observation :

watch the " audience " and note there is not one camera , not even a camera phone in use by

the closest thing we get is when he hads one of his cameras to a handpicked spectator

not a single person with a camera ?

Originally posted by Paul_Richard
It is that his GE does not have the level of energy in order to manifest his Gift of Telekinesis ALL OF THE TIME.

I understand your position now.

You misinterpret the smiling rolling faces. They are not there to offend or to "show anyone up," but to keep things upbeat. Nothing more.

Ill take your word for it. Reading it through, they come off as a smug reply used to inflame my position. sorry for the mix up.



[edit on 1-8-2007 by InSpiteOf]

Originally posted by MrdDstrbr
Well, I did some searching earlier today and couldn't find a central site for CA fans/witnesses to upload photos or video. Maybe something will turn up on Youtube or Google vid, who knows....

My guess, nothing will turn up. My guess as to why, because any and all independant footage is confiscated at the time of filming by the Mind Freak crew (or whoever is filming and working security,) checked for anything revealing, edited where necessary, stamped with an A&E logo and maybe shipped back to the people that filmed it. Making it no longer independant footage.

SURE..the Criss Crew with machine guns just stands the people up against a wall and searched them for film and confiscates it..oh my!! What WIL Lthey come up with next? These are the SORRIEST EXCUSES I have heard yet.

The naysayers are desperate to find a way, ANY way that they can continue in their slavish denials. It is really remarkable when you think about it..to try and find petty side tracks to try and deflect the issues is the mark of the beaten.

Spectators that do not show their cameras enough ..asumptions made without any basis in fact..stretches of the imagination so profound that they rival the belief we have in their depth, but the denier's never admit that they are bereft of substance.

They demand the kind of evidence that they themselves would NEVER spend the time researching; NO amount of proof would suffice, NONE.
We are dealing with denial and that is a deep seated psychological issue.

The Luxor event and the golf course event stand alone as unbeatable examples of the truth; but of course the deniers will point to idosyncratic nothings and gasp " See!! It cannot be because the least possible chance just may be valid here..no proof of such but we must assume..." Nonsense!!

Criss CAN do what you are seeing and you cannot and have not given any real and convincing way that he could have faked the events; thus the weak and repeated tries at undermining pogic and reason to fit the wrong assumption. It will not work.

PR, these deniers are like new Masonic members getting their first degree..soooner or later someone had to whip the cover form the heads of the initiates and scream " THE LIGHT !! "!! WE are screaming but some will grab that hood and hold it down over their heads and refuse to come out: they are afarid of what they might see; it might challenge them in ways that they are not prepared to deal with, thus the denial and refusal to see the obvious.

If they ran out of all excuses and were forced to admit that they had no way of explaining the events, they would simply say " Wel, I still don't know how he does it but it MUST be a trick ". They will NEVER face the facts as it is just too unsetling for them.

Originally posted by eyewitness86
SURE..the Criss Crew with machine guns just stands the people up against a wall and searched them for film and confiscates it..oh my!! What WIL Lthey come up with next? These are the SORRIEST EXCUSES I have heard yet.

Ahem, once again, you blow it out of proportion. Did i say they were armed? No, Did I even say I was sure thats what happens? No, I said "My guess is" If you have a better guess as to why no independant footage has surfaced, go ahead and give it.

The only evidence you have is the lack of visible props. If you can prove he has such abilities ( and I do mean prove, with studies on CA, testimoney from him stating that he is infact, levitating with no props, etc) then do so. If you cannot, then just admit your position is as much speculation as our is and we will be done with this obviously futile conversation. (The futility is on both sides)

Edited: BB Code

[edit on 1-8-2007 by InSpiteOf]

Hi Eyewitness86 et al,

Originally posted by eyewitness86
PR, these deniers are like new Masonic members getting their first degree..soooner or later someone had to whip the cover form the heads of the initiates and scream " THE LIGHT !! "!! WE are screaming but some will grab that hood and hold it down over their heads and refuse to come out: they are afarid of what they might see; it might challenge them in ways that they are not prepared to deal with, thus the denial and refusal to see the obvious.

If they ran out of all excuses and were forced to admit that they had no way of explaining the events, they would simply say " Wel, I still don't know how he does it but it MUST be a trick ". They will NEVER face the facts as it is just too unsetling for them.

I really don't feel that we have that much longer to wait.

As you ascertained and perhaps also intuited, this is just the beginning. There will be others like and even more powerful than Criss Angel who will emerge and put this heated debate to rest. But only after there are various individuals who perform high levitations regularly and with an abundance of eyewitnesses to attest to those events being done without trickery of any kind.

It is just a matter of time.

In the meantime...

Keep up the daily Radiance

Originally posted by InSpiteOf

My guess, nothing will turn up. My guess as to why, because any and all independant footage is confiscated at the time of filming by the Mind Freak crew (or whoever is filming and working security,) checked for anything revealing, edited where necessary, stamped with an A&E logo and maybe shipped back to the people that filmed it. Making it no longer independant footage.

Sorry but this is a weak excuse. It would not only be highly implausible for CA's crew to be searching and confiscating cameras from people, but illegal as well.

Originally posted by MrdDstrbr
Sorry but this is a weak excuse. It would not only be highly implausible for CA's crew to be searching and confiscating cameras from people, but illegal as well.

What excuse? I'm not looking for the footage you claim is out there. I have nothing to be excused for. It is the believers that say there is a mountain of independant footage. We disbelievers have asked for it and the only thing produced are the 2 second splices during the CA broadcast. I ventured a guess as to why you cannot find any independant footage you claim exists. So what exactly am I making an excuse for?

Originally posted by InSpiteOf

Originally posted by MrdDstrbr
Sorry but this is a weak excuse. It would not only be highly implausible for CA's crew to be searching and confiscating cameras from people, but illegal as well.

What excuse? I'm not looking for the footage you claim is out there. I have nothing to be excused for. It is the believers that say there is a mountain of independant footage. We disbelievers have asked for it and the only thing produced are the 2 second splices during the CA broadcast. I ventured a guess as to why you cannot find any independant footage you claim exists. So what exactly am I making an excuse for?

Fine, then your "guess" is a terribly weak one then.

Originally posted by MrdDstrbr
Fine, then your "guess" is a terribly weak one then.

Oh then please, venture your own guess as to why no one here can find independant footage? That was the purpose of this line of conversation.

Originally posted by InSpiteOf

Originally posted by MrdDstrbr
Fine, then your "guess" is a terribly weak one then.

Oh then please, venture your own guess as to why no one here can find independant footage? That was the purpose of this line of conversation.

My guess is that it hasn't occured to the independent witnesses who have photos/footage that they have evidence which is pertinent to this mega-important debate on ATS , so it hasn't occured to them to make it available on the internet yet. (Especially when the official CA footage is already all over Youtube and Google.)

To me it is like one of my teenage boy's standing in front of me and desperately trying to come up with some believable and reasonable excuse for what they did, while trying not to sound ridiculous and at the same time not insulting my intelligence and angering me. the line between the lie and the possible excuse is very thin.

They shuffle and avoid eye contact and say " Ummm, uhhh" a lot and you can see the wheels spinning as they try to avoid an obvious lie while at the same time trying to convince with weak and incredible excuses.

It is NO different with the deniers. They have reached the bottom of the barrell when we hear such things as " film confiscation and analysis and editing by Criss security of scores of witnesses, all of whom never tell anyone about it", or any of the other sad and desperate measures to retain the illusion of credibility.

But just like my boy's get busted by old Dad and have to face the music for what they do when the truth comes out , better that they just admit the truth and get it over with before continued demnials spark outrage at the insult of the intelligence. That always makes things worse.

We have the " lack of props ' as our defense but yet they do not see it!! It goes right over their heads!! The lack of props is the PROOF of NO props!! In order to PROVE props, one must explain either HOW the props are not able to be seen, OR explain how the inability to see or explain the lack of props turns into proof of props!! It is totally backward logic!!

We have a LACK of proof of props, yet the naysayers call that their proof of props; they just ignore the fact that their inability to explain the lack of props exposes their position as absolutely frivolous to the thinking person!! it amazes me how dumb people must think we are to acept backward logic and inapplicable assertions and consider that a legitimate point of view!

Imagine what I would tell my kids if they came to me with an excuse as weak as the ones we are hearing !! " Hey Dad, I know that you are going to think that because the odometer says that I drove 200 miles since I got the car yesterday , and because the gas tank is empty, and because I did not get in until 3 am., that I actually did those things!! No, Dad, what happened is that I ran a few errands and came home early and somehow the gas went away at the same time that the odometer went nuts and you happened to lose track of time !! Is'nt that crazy!! What a coincidence, eh Dad? "

Yeah, right son. Meet you out back by the woodshed in a minute .. WELL, here is the woodshed for the deniers!! they must be really squirming by now. It is like the sputtering sound an engine makes when running out of gas..popping and wheezing and finally a shudder and off the road.

A few more rusted hulks to shove off to the side and out of the way of progress and soon the highway will be open again!!

All that can be said right now is that there is no compelling or reasonable evidence that supports the notion that Chris Angel has and uses real "super powers".

End of Story

All that can be said right now is that there is no compelling or reasonable evidence that Criss Angel uses props or effects in some of his events.

Beginning of the true story.

Originally posted by kinglizard
All that can be said right now is that there is no compelling or reasonable evidence that supports the notion that Chris Angel has and uses real "super powers".

End of Story

Originally posted by eyewitness86
All that can be said right now is that there is no compelling or reasonable evidence that Criss Angel uses props or effects in some of his events.

Beginning of the true story.

There we have it folks. Neither side can offer eachother compelling evidence to justify their stance. Both sides are at an impass and should part ways, each knowing they fought valiantly. Untill there is some seriously compelling evidence one way or the other, this conversation will run in circles.

Cheers to you believers, Cheers to us disbelievers.

[edit on 1-8-2007 by InSpiteOf]

Originally posted by kinglizard
All that can be said right now is that there is no compelling or reasonable evidence that supports the notion that Chris Angel has and uses real "super powers".

End of Story

Disagree strongly.

The fact that he performs incredible feat after incredible feat, which other magicians cannot duplicate, using NO apparent props or equipment, right out in public in front of many independent witnesses instead of in a controlled stage environment, and allows witnesses to take their own photos/footage... all those facts taken together, constitute very compelling evidence that he uses telekinesis and related abilities. He, and to a lesser extent people like David Blaine, have provided the best evidence there is!

Those in the "illusion" camp have only speculation and argumentation to fall back on.

"He is an illusionist therefore the levitations must be illusions". Completely circular logic! What's to stop a trained illusionist from also studying mystic traditions and learning "real magic", real telekinesis?

"He uses props and equipment but hides them with camera tricks and film editing. EVERY SINGLE ONE of the witnesses and production crew and other people in the know are paid off to keep their mouths shut about the invisible props and equipment he uses in his stunts". Total speculation without a shred of evidence to back it up! Hundreds and hundreds of people are being paid off to keep quiet about his invisible equipment, do you realize how absurd that is?

The fact is that the available evidence indicates that he is using a real ability. The "illusion" camp have provided NO proof of hundreds of witnesses being paid off, NO proof of completely invisible props and equipment, completely invisible wires and harnesses and hooks and cranes and platforms etc.....

Weak speculation and argumentation in order to deny what your eyes are telling you.

Originally posted by MrdDstrbr


The fact that he performs incredible feat after incredible feat, which other magicians cannot duplicate,

You're saying this as though you know they can't. If you actually understood the industry of magicians you'd know this:

What benefit do magicians/illusionists gain from copying other magicians/illusionists tricks?

Absolutely none!

THEY NEED THE WOW FACTOR! And quite frankly another magician copying another's trick would not get praise from the public. People would think "WTF he's just doing something Blaine did a few months ago! Do something new!"

Magicians need to keep being original. That's the whole point that you're missing. Copying other peoples tricks isn't good for them. It's repetitive, they will get slagged off, and they need to be unique. The whole point about Cris was, when he came out no-body had seen those 'acts.' If someone copies him, the 'imitator will get laughed off stage for COPYING!

Why would a magician copy another's trick when he can thing up a new one of his own, that no body has seen before, and WOW the general public?!