criss angel discussion...

As i said before, i believe in spiritualism. I walk my own esoteric path and I know Kinglizard has faith in God and the Spirit (from the NDE thread in his/her sig). I do not need a paradigm shift (nor does KL) to accept a damn thing, I've already had it! What I dont believe is that Criss Angel is using any form of power to pull off his illusions.

We disbelievers may be stubborn, but so are you believers.

You say we will never be convinced. Well here is how to convince me:
1) Get CA to sign an affidavid stating that nothing he does is fake or tricks, all of it is from some power he uses.
2) Get CA to replicate his high levitations in a controlled environment surrounded by scientists. Video tape the whole thing.
3) Have those scientsits sign affidavids stating their findings are acurate.

When thats done, then I will be a believer in CA.

[edit on 27-7-2007 by InSpiteOf]

Don't get me wrong I like CA and his illusions and magic. However he in not Superhuman. Here is pretty damming evidence that his levitations are staged and edited:


youtube.com...

Not sure if I am getting the embed right. First time doing it.

Originally posted by InSpiteOf
We disbelievers may be stubborn, but so are you believers.

a good point - and to add :

when angel states that he does not use any edit / camera tricks - paul richards and cohorts uncritically believe this statement to be true - despiite

BUT when angel states that he has no paranormal powers , paul richards states that this is not an accurate statement - and fabricates a complex explaination to reconcile this with his " group entity " theory - a concept that angel himself never adresses

talk about double standards

Originally posted by Paul_Richard
In addition to the HUNDREDS - if not THOUSANDS - of eyewitnesses of the event, and that Criss Angel himself has said a number of times that he uses no camera tricks, there is also the video evidence from a list of spectators, all of which verifies that Angel did indeed float above the Luxor.

Yes, and this is what every one of them saw.....a white dot from 1/2 to 1 mile away.





All the closeup footage was provided by the Chris Angel special effects house as seen in THEIR video.

[edit on 7/27/2007 by kinglizard]

Originally posted by ignorant_ape
BUT when angel states that he has no paranormal powers , paul richards states that this is not an accurate statement - and fabricates a complex explaination to reconcile this with his " group entity " theory - a concept that angel himself never adresses

talk about double standards

Exactly. This two way road is getting crowded

Even if we doubters look at the golf course case and throw our 2 cents out there, eyewitness and PR will just call it hogwash and give us another challenge, saying that the previous one was flawed and they shouldnt have picked that one to represent CA's abilities.

on the subject of the golf course vid - i have a challenge to keep the believers busy :

before i will look at the golf course stunt - i want an explaination of what the " object " is which tracks horizontally above mr angels head just before he " levitates "

come on blelievers what is it ?

if there are no props or video edits - it must be an object independant of the stunt - so what is it ?

you have the vid - which according to you is all you need to correctly identify what is happening

so what is the object in the golf course stunt ?

Even if all those demands WERE met, you would then say " Of course the scientists were paid off by Criss", or " But they were not the right KINDS of scientists, I insist on selecting the scientists", or " Why should I believe an affadavit when it could be a lie?"..on and on. You would NEVER accept the premise, no matter what. Think a minute:

WHY would Criss Angel sign an affadavit that says that he ' always ' or ' never ' does anything? You are trying to get the high levitations and such into the same box as the OBVIOUS ILLUSIONS ' that he performs. THAT is dishonest. Apples and oranges, my friend. Won't work. If he DID sign an affadvait saying that ' some ' of his events are accomplished without the use of props, etc., would THAT satisfy you on part 1? If not you are being disingenuous and using illogical demands to limit the subject erroneously.

2. Would YOu like to pay the cost of constructing an environment that would satisfy your demands so that ' scientists ' could videotape and verify the findings? Can you imagine the cost? Which scientists? from which disciplines? What backgrounds and degrees would be satisfactory to you? How could you verify that the ' scientists ' are ethical and above bribery? Since many of you doubters believe that Criss pays off legions of witnesses and gets total loyalty from all of them, what makes you think he would not pay off the ' scientists ' also and get THEIR loyalty for life as well as the thousands who have witnessed his events?

3. If in fact any one of the ' scientists ' was bribeable, then their affadavits of authenticity would be of no value as well, would they now? This is silly: It could build and build until you were not satisfied unless the Pope and Mr. Rogers are witnesses along with the entire Los Alamos lab.

Also, why would Criss sign anything? He makes a living on keeping the doubters wondering how he does it when they themselves cannot conceive of a way...and he keeps the believers entertained and amused and inspired because we KNOW that he is not using props for SOME of his events. It is a winning combo no matter WHAT anyone says or thinks.

How about this scenario: YOU show me this and I will believe it is all a fake:

1. Affadavits from ANY person, whomever they may be, that alleges that Criss Angel has used trickery or props in his HIGH LEVITATIONS and other events obviously not illusions. Of course such a person would have to be an insider to have any relevence to the issue; say a stage hand or film editor or paid off witness, etc.

2. A repeat of the Luxor Hotel OR the golf course events using props, equipment, etc. that would duplicate the scene observed by the independent witnesses and those filming the event; film it any way you wish from the same angles and for the same durations of each film segment. Show how props could have been used to replicate the event. By the way, that would be a lot cheaper than hring and evaluating scores of possible ' scientists ' for the job!!

3. Show us evidence of any type that an illusionist other than Criss, David or Cyril can duplicate the feats of those forementioned men; Let us see Randi do it, or any other naysayer, using any amount of props and equipment they wish, as long as the video is faithful in showing the same scenes at the same angles so that if any equipment were visible, it would not be obscured on the challenging video. Same locations, same angles, same film durations, WITH props, and let us see if the props are obvious or not; let us see if the public and the eye can really be tricked by props and such.

Open fields and open sky are above Criss on the golf course; if the same shots are shown and independent witnesses are approached at the golf course to film with hand held camersa, just as Criss did, and if you can duplicate the events exactly with the use of props that are as invisible as they are now, I will relent and admit that it may all be a hoax after all.

IF the events CAN be replicated WITH props, then let us see how. Let us see the events as they appear with Criss, only with props. Duplicate it or admit that it CANNOT be duplicated using props; at least come up with a way it could be duplicated; so far all attempts to find a way to explain the mechanical part of invisible equipment have failed miserably.

If the props are NOT apparent on Criss video's, but are really there, you should be able without too much trouble to replicate the effects while showing WHERE he had the props, right? Just be honest and do not use different angles or anything that would make the comparison unfair.

Until the burden of proof has been met, by the doubters ( because they have NOT replied with a logical and likley alternative theory , and because NO props are evident or observable) , the realistic assumption is that NO props are used. Occams Razor again. The more complicated the doubters get in their denials, the further away from odds that are feasible they drift.

I am POSITIVE that Criss Angel uses ' abilities beyond the mundane ' in some of his events; I am sure because there is NO evidence to the contrary that exists or is evident. It cannot be found. not ONE person has EVER come forward to denounce Criss as a faker, not ONE!! That is beyond the bounds of belief when thousands of people are involved over the years with his events and no doubt hundreds on the staff over the years; and all the film people, and all of the security people, etc. To accept that they ALL are loyal to the death for Criss is just stupid, ludicrous, unbelievable.

The odds are greater that Criss can levitate than they are that humans can remain silent for long periods in massive numbers; it cannot be so. It defies all common sense and logic. The simplest and easiest and most likley explanation is that Criss CAN defy the ' laws ' that we see as ' laws ' but that he sees as' options'. If you cannot conceive of a way he could do it, how can he? Is he that much smarter than all the rest of us? Are his friends and employees more loyal and able than anyone else's?

You have to layer supposition upon supposition to get anywhere near a way to explain Criss events. Better to keep it simple, and likley, than complicated, and most unlikely. Find a video of a high levitation using props that are as unappraent as the one's in Criss video's, and I will take a step back and listen closer to you; otherwise admit that it is the real deal.

Originally posted by eyewitness86
I am POSITIVE that Criss Angel uses ' abilities beyond the mundane ' in some of his events; I am sure because there is NO evidence to the contrary that exists or is evident. It cannot be found.

Your belief is NOT based on any type of proof or evidence, it is a FAITH based belief only. You ignore contrary evidence and attempt to shape what you see to align with your preconceived ideas and feelings.

It's kinda fun watching you schuck n' jive. lol





[edit on 7/27/2007 by kinglizard]

I don't care whether it's real or not, it's entertainment, and it makes you think about how it could have been done. Like him being put through a wood chipper, impressive, they even have his "remains" come out thrrough the chute along with whats left of the box. It's meant for shock value, entertainment, and something to showcase what illusions can be made out to do.

Originally posted by eyewitness86
If he DID sign an affadvait saying that ' some ' of his events are accomplished without the use of props, etc., would THAT satisfy you on part 1?

Sure, so long as after he signed he was willing to replicate such feats in a controlled environment.

2. Would YOu like to pay the cost of constructing an environment that would satisfy your demands so that ' scientists ' could videotape and verify the findings?

No, im not trying to prove he is real, you are.

Which scientists? from which disciplines? What backgrounds and degrees would be satisfactory to you? How could you verify that the ' scientists ' are ethical and above bribery?

Im not sure, how bout you and I sit down and decide what would be acceptable once you secure a facility?

Since many of you doubters believe that Criss pays off legions of witnesses and gets total loyalty from all of them, what makes you think he would not pay off the ' scientists ' also and get THEIR loyalty for life as well as the thousands who have witnessed his events?

Easy, he never meets or talks to the scientists prior to the signing of the affadavit and the test.

3. If in fact any one of the ' scientists ' was bribeable, then their affadavits of authenticity would be of no value as well, would they now? This is silly: It could build and build until you were not satisfied unless the Pope and Mr. Rogers are witnesses along with the entire Los Alamos lab.

The finer details need to be worked out yes, but i would be willing to say your right if my basic requirements were met.

Also, why would Criss sign anything? He makes a living on keeping the doubters wondering how he does it when they themselves cannot conceive of a way...

people HAVE concieved ways, right here in this thread. You just choose not to accept them as possible.

How about this scenario: YOU show me this and I will believe it is all a fake:

No, i went first

1. Affadavits from ANY person, whomever they may be, that alleges that Criss Angel has used trickery or props in his HIGH LEVITATIONS and other events obviously not illusions. Of course such a person would have to be an insider to have any relevence to the issue; say a stage hand or film editor or paid off witness, etc.

Seeing as all those peoples info is kept confidencial how bout you give me their addresses and Ill get the affidavits?


Unfortunately Criss is a multi-millionare, with the backing of millionare producers and funders. The second of your requirements is out of my reach.

The odds are greater that Criss can levitate than they are that humans can remain silent for long periods in massive numbers; it cannot be so.

Really? Ok well, what are these odds? Can you show us the statistical analysis you've done to prove this?

It defies all common sense and logic. The simplest and easiest and most likley explanation is that Criss CAN defy the ' laws '

No, the simplest and easiest and most likley explanation is that Criss is a good illusionist, using wicked props and a great camera editting crew.

Lay down on the floor and lay perfectly still. Close your eyes. Are you moving? NO! You're not moving. If you were moving you could tell, couldn't you? Of course you could. Your senses are perfectly adequate to detect a sensation of movement when there is any. If someone were to come along and tell you were moving when you know full well you aren't, you'd laugh in their face! "HA!" You'd say. "HA and HO!"

Now go outside. Look up in the sky and notice the position of the Sun. In the daylight, not night time. Pay attention to where it is. Go back in and lay still. Then go back out and check the Sun's position again a few hours later. WTF! The Sun Moved! You didn't move, but the Sun's in a different position, so the Sun must have moved!

All these years you were fed the NONSENSE about the Earth revolving around the Sun when your own senses can plainly demonstrate it's the Sun moving and not the Earth! Who are you going to believe? These government paid "teachers" with their state-supplied agenda to keep you down? These so-called "books" written by "scientists" with their "educations"? Or your OWN SENSES??!?!?

We are to believe that it's the Earth moving when our senses PLAINLY demonstrate this not to be the case! Prove it to me! Prove the Earth is moving. YOU CAN'T!!! SO I HAVE TO BE RIGHT! Besides, I'm NOT LISTENING! See, LALALALALALALALA I can't hear you!

Anyone who says the Earth revolves around the Sun is denying their own physical senses and common sense, Occam's Razor, and some other faintly intellectual sounding stuff.

So here I stand, bestride ATS like a sage Colossus, at the top of Mt. Denial, laughing at all of you who choose to ignore the only possible plausible explanation!

(See Eyewitness86, that's exactly what you sound like).

By the way, that "magic talking picture box" in the front room doesn't really have actual people in it talking just to you.

And pro wrestling? Fake.


[edit on 7/27/2007 by yeahright]

Yes obviously the Sun must be moving around us....Thats kinda funny seeing as how smaller objects seem to revolve around objects with larger mass.. Prove to me that the Earth is bigger then the Sun go ahead haha... I've been on a moving floor before and i felt like i was completely motionless, but tadaaa it must be magic because the platform was moving below me... You sure argue some great points

Originally posted by InSpiteOf
Neither Kinglizard nor ignorant_ape said anything about the eyewitness's being paid off.

There are a number of people in this thread who have implied exactly that.

Originally posted by Paul_Richard
In addition to the HUNDREDS - if not THOUSANDS - of eyewitnesses of the event, and that Criss Angel himself has said a number of times that he uses no camera tricks, there is also the video evidence from a list of spectators, all of which verifies that Angel did indeed float above the Luxor.

Originally posted by InSpiteOf
Ya, its called selling your act. How hard is it to believe that someone making money would lie to do it?

For precisely the reasons I stated - reread my earlier post. If they were lying, then they were paid off. However, I have no reason to believe they lied and that they were financially compensated to do so.

Originally posted by InSpiteOf
Your list is pointless. A first name and their country or state of origin tells us nothing, and doesnt even allow us to persue them for commentary or a statement.

A witness is a witness, no matter what the name. You could always contact the producers of Mindfreak in order to confirm the names and locations of the people whose independent video footage they used.

Furthermore, if you want someone you can contact that can verify Criss Angel's levitation ability and who has stated in ATS that he was levitated fifteen feet in the air by Criss Angel, contact the ATS member known as 1 True Criss Angel Fan.

Originally posted by 1 Tru Criss Angel Fan
... I Know Criss Angel Personally. I Live Really Close To Him. I Visited His Secret Cabaret One Day, And He Said, "Now Alex, I Want You To Close Your Eyes." He Gave Me A Second Or Two And He Said "Is That Completed?" And I Said, "Check!" He Said, "Now Stick Your Hands Out, Cross Your Feet, And Your Fingers." I Said "Check!" And He Said, "Now, Breathe. Gently." And Right Then, I Lifted Into The Air, He Yelled "Open Your Eyes, You Motherfugger!" I Opened My Eyes, And I Was Levitated 15 Feet Off The Ground.

Now the question is...

Are you going to contact 1 Tru Criss Angel Fan for verification or is your argument just a feeble ruse?

Originally posted by MrdDstrbr
Still no one addresses the fact that other magicians and illusionists would naturally want to be competitive with CA and at least duplicate his feats, if not surpass them.

And yet none of them can.

Not even David Blaine.

Why?

Point well taken.

Because they cannot duplicate Criss Angel's Gift of Telekinesis

Originally posted by elevatedone
who says the others are not planning the events right now...

getting all the trickery machinery ready...

Unless their Gift is more powerful than that of CA, it won't go over well.

Which is why you don't see David Blaine or Uri Geller flying around golf courses and down large atriums.

But the real question is...

Why haven't those things been done BEFORE Criss Angel emerged as a Mindfreak

Because they cannot be done without a powerful Gift.

Funny you keep ignoring my posts.

Originally posted by InSpiteOf

Originally posted by BlackGuardXIII
But, if you don't buy, even after seeing Angel, Blaine, Copperfield, etc. in person do their thing, and after reading numerous scientific experiment results such as the Geller ones... why should anyone but you care?

[edit on 7/26/2007 by BlackGuardXIII]

[edit on 7/26/2007 by BlackGuardXIII]

form what i understand, Copperfields levitation and other illusions have been reproduced and debunked. hell even blaines mini-levitations have been shown to have a logical explanation.

From what you understand? Have you seen someone reproduce Copperfield's levitations? I saw him do it, in person, and don't know how, but I at least have first hand knowledge. Your 'from what I understand' speculation is baseless. If any of you folks who keep insisting it is props, wires, platforms, video editting, etc., actually went and saw it for yourselves you'd have a much better perspective on the whole topic. Right now, you offer nothing but insubstantial guess work. It is hard to see any value in such unsupported commentary.

BLACKGUARD :

which copperfeild illusion are you refering to ?

my penpal anf his uncle were on the stage to see copperfeild " make the statue of liberty dissapear "

and neither could explain it , and like you , rick was very hostile to the explaination - claiming that hje would have noticed the stage rotating etc etc

sometimes being too close - and in the position the preformer wants you to be in is a big disadvantage

Originally posted by ignorant_ape
BLACKGUARD :

which copperfeild illusion are you refering to ?

my penpal anf his uncle were on the stage to see copperfeild " make the statue of liberty dissapear "

and neither could explain it , and like you , rick was very hostile to the explaination - claiming that hje would have noticed the stage rotating etc etc

sometimes being too close - and in the position the preformer wants you to be in is a big disadvantage

That time, it was seeing him fly around the arena with a girl in his arms. But I have seen him 3 times, once in row 7, once in the dress circle, and once in the rear lower level arena seats. It is not specifically one 'trick' I refer to, though, in principle. I have seen many inexplicable feats each time I went. I also saw explicable ones two of the times, so I could conclude that, since one of his tricks is explicable, all of them are. But that is not logical reasoning. Only people who have seen levitation, etc., first hand can credibly comment on what is, or is not, a possible method being employed. Holographs are a technology that might answer some of the questions, but in the end, it is obvious that no one can explain all the feats these guys do. It seems only a few people alive are able to do so, and they aren't saying, likely for very good reasons. Randi, and his horde of critics cannot do it, depite their confident protestations that it can all be explained rationally. Maybe so, but wouldn't they look more credible if they actually offered these explanations instead of just always claiming they exist? It is especially important to note that most, if not all the critics in this thread have not ever seen these things done in person. Without them going and seeing it in person their conjecture is particularly valueless, imo.

People........don't u know that criss says that he's an illusionist??
I've become a skeptic since i saw "magic's greatest secrets revealed",that masked magician shows you many illusions that you would anytime say it was real........just think about it