criss angel discussion...

Originally posted by Paul_Richard
Now explain to us how David Blaine did the beer can reanimation in a way that is obviously not the method you espoused via the video.

Oh for goodness sakes.....keep playing that card Paul.

*sigh*

Tell you what, how about you prove that Chris Angel is using power to manipulate the laws of this universe given to him from some group entity.

btw- someone else not knowing how a trick is preformed is NOT proof.

I already know, you can't....why? Because everything you believe is on FAITH not PROOF. Why you can't admit that I don't know.....

Blessings.....

Originally posted by Paul_Richard
Now explain to us how David Blaine did the beer can reanimation in a way that is obviously not the method you espoused via the video.

Originally posted by kinglizard
keep playing that card Paul.

I will as long as you keep dodging pertinent questions.

Originally posted by kinglizard
Tell you what, how about you prove that Chris Angel is using power to manipulate the laws of this universe given to him from some group entity.

Once again...you are dodging the question by posing a question.

You won't admit that you can't explain why David Blaine did the beer can re-animation in a way that contradicts the explanation via the video link you posted.

Originally posted by kinglizard
btw- someone else not knowing how a trick is preformed is NOT proof.

In a Net forum such as this one, there is only anecdotal evidence, logical extrapolation, and scant evidence provided from other sources.

There is no PHYSICAL PROOF of anything in ATS. That is the nature of Net forums. This is new to you?

Moreover, to answer questions with questions is a clever dodge, which you have done repeatedly. This indicates that you have no answers, you have no explanations, and that you are simply groping at straws and trying to figure out SOMETHING to state that makes some sort of sense to support your argument.

Why do you think Jesus is God or the Son of God?

Where is your proof?

Get the idea?

The only thing you can state is that you have FAITH.

But faith alone is not enough.

Never has been and never will be.

Right now, there is more direct and indirect evidence that Criss Angel and David Blaine have a Gift of Telekinesis than Jesus/Issa being God or the Son of God.

That conclusion is not based on faith.

It is based on experience, direct communication with Group Entities (and others), indirect testimony from people like John Chang that Gifts of the Spirit come from people on the Other Side, and mounting video evidence supportive of their Gifts - as well as eyewitness testimony from people like 1 Tru Criss Angel Fan (in ATS).

You may promote your faith-based conclusions as you wish.

But the more experienced of us know that that is a flawed approach to furthering any argument.

I like the one where he pulled that hot babe out of the bag. very nice!

I've said time and time again my belief in Christianity is based on faith. I've explained that I'm not trying to dodge anything. Somehow you keep playing that card too.

Not knowing how a trick/illusion is preformed does not equate to proof.

How about this....CA has a leprechaun that lives in his pocket. When he preforms his illusions the leprechaun actually preforms the act. The leprechaun literally feeds off the energy of the audience so it's a symbiotic relationship where both both win.

I have as much proof for this as you have for the "group entity" thing.

Originally posted by the sloth
I like the one where he pulled that hot babe out of the bag. very nice!

I did too.

He purposely surrounds himself with one or more beautiful women on his show.

Unfortunately, like the trick he did on the recent Mindfreak episode when he took a young girl and aged her to 20 years...

Those are examples of his illusions, not of his Gift of Telekinesis.

The levitations are better examples of the latter.

Originally posted by kinglizard
How about this....CA has a leprechaun that lives in his pocket. When he preforms his illusions the leprechaun actually preforms the act. The leprechaun literally feeds off the energy of the audience so it's a symbiotic relationship where both both win.

Show us a video and also get an eyewitness to chime in and you would have something to offer us other than fantastic guesses.

Originally posted by kinglizard
I have as much proof for this as you have for the "group entity" thing.

That is highly questionable and open to opinion.

Gifts of the Spirit is not a new concept. It stems back thousands of years. Even Paul of Tarsus or Saint Paul referred to them. You do know who that is, right?

Gifts of the Spirit are just something that is new to you and one that you have difficulty in embracing, for whatever reason.

And...

People other than Issa/Jesus have had Gifts of the Spirit back when and there are those in the flesh who have them NOW.

Like Criss Angel and David Blaine for example.

BTW...in case you don't know...Saint Paul also had a documented Gift of Healing.

Originally posted by Paul_Richard
Why do you think Jesus is God or the Son of God?

Faith and my NDE. For others to believe they would need faith too.

Originally posted by Paul_Richard
Where is your proof?

I have none that I can present to you that would not rely on faith.

Originally posted by Paul_Richard
The only thing you can state is that you have FAITH.

Now you're getting it.

Originally posted by Paul_Richard
But faith alone is not enough.

For the person with faith or for others?

Originally posted by Paul_Richard
Never has been and never will be.

It is for me and the othe billion Christians.

Originally posted by Paul_Richard
Right now, there is more direct and indirect evidence that Criss Angel and David Blaine have a Gift of Telekinesis than Jesus/Issa being God or the Son of God.

No, both require faith.

Actually considering the videos that prove Chris fakes illusions there is more evidence that Chris doesn't have any real powers to manipulate the universal laws. This proof would actually stand up in a court of law.


edit: bold bbcode

[edit on 7/25/2007 by kinglizard]

Originally posted by Paul_Richard
But faith alone is not enough.

Originally posted by kinglizard
For the person with faith or for others?

Both...of course.

Originally posted by Paul_Richard
Never has been and never will be.

Originally posted by kinglizard
It is for me and the othe billion Christians.

Well there must be something wrong with that faith, because right now the fastest growing religion in the world is not Christianity but Islam.

Originally posted by Paul_Richard
Right now, there is more direct and indirect evidence that Criss Angel and David Blaine have a Gift of Telekinesis than Jesus/Issa being God or the Son of God.

Originally posted by kinglizard
No, both require faith.

Not true.

1 Tru Criss Angel Fan did not need faith when he testified that he was levitated fifteen feet in the air by Criss Angel.

The "miracles" of Issa/Jesus have been duplicated by other prophets, like Sai Baba for example. This points to Jesus not being God or the Son of God, but only being a prophet.

The above conclusion did not require any faith whatsoever, just very good research and analysis.

Originally posted by kinglizard
Actually considering the videos that prove Chris fakes illusions there is more evidence that Chris doesn't have any real powers to manipulate the universal laws. This proof would actually stand up in a court of law.

Maybe in a Christian fundamentalist court of law.

However, none of the videos you have posted further your argument. The levitation explanation video was in itself manipulated. This is clearly evident when you watch the regular video separately and then compare it to the tampered explanation video.

The other video you posted was of the beer can re-animation. This was analyzed and also doesn't hold up when comparing it to the David Blaine video I posted. You of course avoided addressing those points.

Care to try again?



[edit on 25-7-2007 by Paul_Richard]

Originally posted by Paul_Richard
Well there must be something wrong with that faith, because right now the fastest growing religion in the world is not Christianity but Islam.

By that same logic there must really be something wrong with your faith in Chris Angel when 99.9999% of people believe he's just a simple magician/ TV trickster.

In my personal opinion there is something wrong with people following Islam...but again their belief is based on FAITH too. I just happen to believe that my FAITH in Jesus is correct.

Originally posted by Paul_Richard
Not true.

1 Tru Criss Angel Fan did not need faith when he testified that he was levitated fifteen feet in the air by Criss Angel.

It takes faith for others to believe member "1 true Chris Angel Fan"...there is no proof.

Actually he was levitated by the leprechaun living in Chris Angels pocket.

Originally posted by Paul_Richard
Maybe in a Christian fundamentalist court of law.

Yes in Christian fundamentalist court too....actually any court with a dvd player.

Originally posted by Paul_Richard
However, none of the videos you have posted further your argument. The levitation explanation video was in itself manipulated.

Oh, I see, now the analysis was manipulated. lol

Originally posted by Paul_Richard
Care to try again?

I'll read your future posts in this thread. Maybe I'll comment later today.

[edit on 7/25/2007 by kinglizard]

Yadda yadda yadda..ad infinitum, ad nauseum. There is only one real way to boil it down; the doubter's must be restricted to specific topics and events or the wiggle starts and all common sense is lost.

1. Explain in an intelligent manner, how the Luxor Hotel levitation was accomplished , if in fact it was not a genuine levitation. Make it sensible and as believeable as assuming that Criss CAN levitate.

There are many others as well of course but unless this one event can be explained away intelligently and believably, it proves that Criss does indeed have abilities that transcend the mundane explanations proffered here by the doubter's. If Criss can levitate over the Luxor and if no rational and likley explanation can be given, one that is not totally nonsensical, then the battle is over.

If he can levitate over the Luxor and the doubter's cannot come up with a good and likley guess as to how he could have pulled it off, then they MUST retreat or be forever branded as spurious, foolish and blind denier's of the plain truth. The FACT that we cannot even get ONE doubter to attempt to explain away this ONE event, not even mentioning all of the others that PaulRichard and others have mentioned, then it is clear that the doubters are running on empty and desperate for a way to get off the road before our semi runs them over.

The naysayers will try and deflect the real issues, will adopt side issues and nonsensical and irrelevant claims as valid and obscure the main issues with bit's and pieces of nothing but conjecture and blind faith in their own ' abilities ' to detect truth and ascertain the material reality of what we see. Personally, I am going to ignore the most obvious nonsense, the stuff we have refuted over and over again, and save the time and effort for REAL questions and REAL possible explanations that may be valid.

Let THEM explain how even ONE event, like the Luxor levitation, could be accomplished by trickery or we can assume that the apparent answer is the correct one. If Criss can levitate above the Luxor, he can obviously do the things we see him do that also defy conventional explanation; NOT the simple and obvious illusions, but the really impossible to prove one's, as mentioned previously, like transforming elements, causing people and things to change locations, etc.

If they CANNOT come up with an intelligent answer to the Luxor question, then we might as well fly the flag of victory; if they cannot explain away the Luxor event, then they cannot explain any of the other events that are sublime and not mundane. Denial and stubborn resistance to the truth cannot be maintained in the face of a total lack of evidence to the contrary. Until at least one naysayer admits that they cannot explain away the Luxor ' float ', or submits evidence or at least a theory that has SOME chance at being possible, or likley, then they are finished insofar as this debate goes.

Just picture someone reading this thread from start to finish; no doubt they would see the total lack of an alternative theory and the refusal to stick to certain critical points as evidence of the barreness of the doubter's case. They would see doubter's twisting and turning and trying to avoid the main issues, always referring to side things that have no real bearing on the main topics and assertions. They would see the doubter's constant harping about things that have no relation to the issue, and their desperate attempts to sway with ridicule and silly misstatements of fact and insistence on looking at examples that do NOT relate to the main topic.

Aside to PR: I do not know who ' Majic ' is and it is not me, word of honor. I was on ATS some years ago as ' deathtoaliens ' but I was not very active. Now that I am back, I intend to hold the line at sensible and intelligent replies that contribute to the overall discussion, and not to get sidetracked by the trolls and others who have nothing better to do than show their ignorance to all. I get aggravated like we all do at the lack of substance that the doubter's possess, but we cannot let them highjack threads and allow the nonsense to overwhelm the truth by merely having the last, and most ridiculous , words on the subject.

So, once again, here is the challenge: Please, one of you doubter's , just tell us HOW Criss Angel performed his levitation at the Luxor Hotel. Tell us, in a believable and intelligent manner, how you think he pulled it off with no supports, helicopters, wires or props visible or evident. Surely you are able to come up with a likley scenario, right? Surely you can tell us, with all of your insights, how it might have been done. IF NOT, then quit wasting all of our time and efforts on rebutting your silliness; you have shown the depth of your denial and lack of substantive possibilities that show an alternative means of accomplishing the event.

In other words, if you cannot give US a likley and believable explanation for the Luxor levitation, then you lose and better to be gracious and retreat than to show that not only are you bereft of substance, but also possess no honor and dignity as well. We are waiting, still, for ONE good response. If between all of you doubter's there cannot be gleaned ONE good reason for us to believe you instead of the empirical and evidential realities that we experience , then have the good grace to relent and save yourselves the embarrassment of being thought even more shallow and silly than you do now.

Let's hear the intelligent and possible and likely ways in which Criss Angel pulled off the Luxor levitation, other than with innate abilities. I have a feeling we will be waiting a long time for a SPECIFIC RESPONSE. I will NOT reply any more to the vacant and already dealt with issues; it is time to put up or shut up. Tell us how he did it; either you have no imagination, or you have no valid point of view. In either case that will leave you doubter's with little more than your pathetic sidetracks and avoidance of the issue. ANSWER THE QUESTION OR ADMIT YOU ARE UNABLE TO. Any other reply will be invalid and just another attempt to avoid the main issue.

WE have the high ground, WE have the empirical evidence, WE have the proof and evidence; here is your last chance to prove that you have some, or any, valid reasons to continue in this debate. LUXOR HOTEL levitation only and no other crap; let us pin them down here and now and allow NO wiggling.

Wow, how many ways can you ask the same question? lol

How did he do the Luxor levitation?

A leprechaun living in Chris Angels pocket. I have as much proof for this as you have for your group entity.

Anyway I'm immune to your attempts to inflame and promote this conversation.

[edit on 7/25/2007 by kinglizard]

Thank you for your reply. Although you merely repeated the question, which I thought I had asked enough times already, juding from your comment about same, you did NOT even TRY to come up with a possible explanation that has any realistic chance of being judged a possible alternative.

By the way, I have not personally promoted the Group Entity belief, as PR does. I am still not certain about the actual mechanism of the ability, whether it be a group entity or innate spiritual/kinetic ability, or whatever. What I DO know is that no rational and likley answer, other than the one that proposes NO props, has been shown or discussed here. If there is no way that an event can be a fake, then it must be real. If there are no ways that an event CAN BE faked, then it is real. If ALL of the evidence points to an event being real, and NO evidence to the contrary exists, then the event can be said to be real.

In a court of law that is a slam dunk case. Because you cannot give a rational possible way that Criss faked the Luxor levitation, you start the ' leprechaun ' side track to nowhere. Lack of imagination or an intelligent alternative theory? Take your choice. I am glad that a few stumped doubters are starting to withdraw ( call it ' refusing to be drawn in ') or anything else you like; it is the same thing. Why continue to keep avoiding the same question over and over, right?

Continued resistance to logic and evidence is futile and wasteful of time and resources. Better to spend that time in deep contemplation of the possible scenario's that would support your firm belief in the fakery you allege; then , if one seems likley and intelligent, propose it and we will discuss it. Isn't that what civilzed debate is all about?

In the meantime, still no one had proposed a likley scenario and I really would be suprised if anyone can come up eith anything better than " Criss Angel is really a buddy of Billy Meiers and Billy asked Semjase to hover cloaked over the Luxor as a special favor..and support Criss when he gives the signal." See? That's a possibility, of course, but is it any more likely than Criss being able to levitate? I cannot think of many OTHER possibilities under the circumstances, and apparently neither can our doubting Thomas's , who obviously can see the futility in trying to deny the undeniable.

The air on Everest is sure clean and fresh, eh PR??

Originally posted by Paul_Richard

1 Tru Criss Angel Fan did not need faith when he testified that he was levitated fifteen feet in the air by Criss Angel.

right... because of two things...

1. the big fat check that the "fan" got.

2. the confidentiality statement that the show has that the "fan" signed.

um, didn't someone post a qoute that was from mr. angels own mouth? Didn't he say himself that it is jsut illusion? Why are people still trying to decide wheather he is real or not? Was this qoute fake?

Originally posted by yeahrightHere's the deal- show me any illusionist (or whatever you choose to call CA) performing their supernatural paranormal acts in a scientifically controlled environment using only their paranormal ability, and I'll buy.

You want to believe "it's real"? That's fine. Criss and I know better.

If you really cared to know such information, you would have found it yourself. It is not hard to access. One place to look is Uri Geller's site, specifically the pages regarding scientific research on his abilities done within controlled environments by teams of top university scientists. The quotes of the actual testers themselves about their findings are telling.

www.uri-geller.com...

But, if you don't buy, even after seeing Angel, Blaine, Copperfield, etc. in person do their thing, and after reading numerous scientific experiment results such as the Geller ones... why should anyone but you care?

[edit on 7/26/2007 by BlackGuardXIII]

[edit on 7/26/2007 by BlackGuardXIII]

Originally posted by BlackGuardXIII
But, if you don't buy, even after seeing Angel, Blaine, Copperfield, etc. in person do their thing, and after reading numerous scientific experiment results such as the Geller ones... why should anyone but you care?

[edit on 7/26/2007 by BlackGuardXIII]

[edit on 7/26/2007 by BlackGuardXIII]

form what i understand, Copperfields levitation and other illusions have been reproduced and debunked. hell even blaines mini-levitations have been shown to have a logical explanation.

In a way it IS dead ; Due to the FACT that not ONE person here can answer my last challenge, not ONE, it can be safely assumed that NO logical and rational explanation other than the one that proposes NO props, etc., exists. If it existed, surely the intelligent and aware people here would come up with at least ONE likely scenario.

Because they CANNOT come up with an intelligent and likley alternative reply, they are starting the side issues and nonsense again, trying to drag the truth back into the dark once more by obfuscation and refusal to face the main issue. I have a hard time believing that no one here has the insight to figure out a way that Criss could have pulled off the Luxor levitation, since they are so determined that it is all somehow a hoax or set up. Why such strong belief with NO evidence thnat shows a likley alternative? Faith? In what? Lack of proof? Sad.

Imagine this scene in a courtroom: ( Defense Attorney): " Your Honor, I submit that my client could not possibly have committed the crime. In spite of the fact that the State has presented undisputed videotape of my client committing the crime, and despite the fact that scores of eyewitnesses saw him committing the crime,and despite the fact that my client has been seen committing such crimes many times in the past, he in fact did NOT commit the crime; I am very sorry, Your Honor and members of the Jury, that I am at a loss to explain exactly WHY and HOW my client is not guilty, and I cannot refute the allegations with evidence , but I ask you to disregard all of the evidence and just assume that he could not possible have done such a thing because there are some people in this world who would find the evidence lacking, and so I ask this Jury to emulate the people who would deny the evidence and witnesses for no good reason, just for the heck of it; otherwise my client doesn't have a chance!!".

Imagine the look on the faces of the Jury and Court. Disregard the evidence despite no possible likely alternative? What a joke!! Not even a funny joke, it is an insulting joke as it rests on absolute faith in a LACK of proof and a contrary viewpoint that has merit. If you were to watch the video's of the Luxor event, and speak to the many eyewitnesses, some of whom filmed the event independently, and examine all the evidence present, would you sit on the stand after taking the oath and say " Criss Angel did this by means of some trick or illusion or technology , it cannot be so otherwise"? On WHAT would you base that conclusion and WHY would a jury of intelligent people show any more regard for your opinion than they would in the case I proffered above?

See how specious it sounds when you say that there MUST be a trick yet you cannot even fathom HOW it may be so? If you are unable to fathom an event, either your imaginative talents are seriouly lacking, or you are unable to fathom ANYTHING that presnts a challenge outside your realm of comprehension. That says a lot about the doubter, and not a thing about the evidence and facts.

I am really going to be disappointed in you guys if you cannot come up with ONE likley alternative scenario; please no leprechauns or immature nonsense. Deflecting the question and challenge will not detract from it's worth as a means to finalize this matter: Tell us HOW Criss did the Luxor event or admit that you are unable to come up with any better explanation than that which we propose and as such the likelihood is that the event in question is what is appears to be: the use of abilites beyond the mundane and not well known to most people today. At least that would be honest and deserving of respect; as it is, silly side issues will NOT sway the main thrust of the argument: LUXOR OR BUST!!

Explain it or admit you cannot; that would be the first step for many of you toward honest appraisal of the facts and an opening of the mind to new possibilities. Any other reply is just more foolish efforts to shift the focus away from the real issue and into endless silliness. You guys must have picked up a few things from watching illusionists; you are trying to divert attention away from the critical point of view in order to deceive, or at least in a more innocent appraisal, to deny your own discomfort with being UNABLE to asnwer the challenge with any sensible and likley alternative.

Once again: LUXOR OR BUST !!!

eyewitness you don't seem to "get it". I don't know how a lot of magic tricks are preformed, such is the nature of a magic trick. That doesn't mean that the logical and rational conclusion should be that they are really breaking and bending the universal laws....what is this the 1500's?

You are stuck on this Luxor illusion. Which btw I absolutely LOVE. It's by far the most incredible illusion I've ever seen.....but make no mistake it's still just an illusion.

You want scenarios , fine.....He is being lifted by a helicopter...He's standing on a platform....He's horizontally tethered between two tiny Hollywood wires that connect to hotels adjacent to the luxor and when they are tightened he rises...It's actually a semi-rigid animitron that looks like Chris Angel...It was an animated balloon...They used a hologram...Thermal air lifted him from the heat of the lights and wind flowing up from the sides of the pyramid....

We could go on for days but it gets us nowhere. Again I don't know exactly how it was done but the most logical and reasonable answer is not that he is using real powers....or a leprechaun.

How amusing!! I really enjoyed that!! Thank you.

However, EVERY ONE of your possible ' explanations ' is statistically LESS likley than Criss levitating! Might as well have kept the Leprechaun for backup!! The assumption that there are helicopters that are invisible to the eye and film, and running silent and without lights, all impossible or highly illegal, is nonsensical at best. ANY props WOULD have been shown by the EXTREME illumination that was used. That was one of the worlds brightest lights..NO WAY that there was a helicopter there, no way. It would have been illuminated.

The mechanisms for a wire support structure suspended between two hotels, a mechanism that would have to raise and lower at heights ABOVE the surrounding hotels and that required advanced mechanical engineering,etc. would be so complex and apparent, and so time consuming to build and maintain and operate in order to accomplish the event, would be impossible to hide, disguise, put in place with radical construction at both hotel's. I guess all those people are paid off and loyal to the death also, right?

That would require permits and many elements and people to manage and pull off; too complicated to work given the number of people and steps required, too ridiculous a possibility to accept at all. You just cannot throw a few wires across the Strip in Vegas ( especially between hotels of varying heights; the Luxor is taller than the surrounding hotels and thus the ' wires ' are impossible)...and have a few guys yank on them and get what we see on the video, no way.

Let's see, any others? Not any more sensible than the above, and what you propose is NO more likley than Criss having the ability to do it without props. Less likley in fact. Actually, a cloaked UFO makes MORE sense than an invisible and silent helicopter that raises up and down perfectly without swaying the subject at all!!

Also, maybe YOU are comfortable with not having a clue about things that you cannot explain, but I and many others will not just stop there and deny the other possibilties, the MORE likley possibilities. You have basicaly said that if an event is beyond your ability to comprehend, then the problem is merely your inability to comprehend a logical and likely answer and NOT the possibility or even chance that maybe the truth lies in an answer that is beyond your limited and stubborn list of possibilities. You say' It is all a fake, it must be because no matter how hard I try and think about it, I cannot imagine a man defying gravity, too far out for me, so I will just keep on insisting that it is a fake.'

It IS an uncomfortable thing for some people to realize that their paradigms are so limited that they are blind to other realities. If a person cannot accept that a man can defy gravity, then how could they accept any evidence, no matter how strong? Criss Angel could walk into a doubter's home and do some inexplicable event, disappear, whatever..and the doubters would be screaming that someone spiked their KoolAid with '___'!! They CANNOT believe past their comfort level, and thus WILL not accept any reason other than that which provides comfort. Simple. It makes life so much less complicated and simple when all realities are known and all boundaries are clearly delineated. For some at least.

For the rest of us, we will continue to insist on a LIKLEY AND INTELLIGENT response, not odds more drastic than those needed to believe the apparent and obvious. you have NOT given a reply that is more likley than the one we peopose, and until you do, all the rest is just blather and bluster and boring. this reminds me of the folks who, before manned flight, were CERTAIN, absolutely sure, that man would never fly. The Wright Brothers, among others, proved them wrong. Why cannot eh doubters of today see that the next step is flight without apparatus? Those who so adamantly deny the possibility now may very well find themselves an embarrassing relic in the future when the new paradigms are accepted as common, and the old assumptions are once again disspelled.

That is how history progresses and this is just another step; maybe if so many people did not get in the way of expanded comprehension due to irrational denial we would be there a lot faster. It will not be soon enough for me!!

Again: Any rational or likely ways the Luxor event was pulled off with props is welcome. So far no one has proposed a likley theory with odds greater than the supposition we propose. NEXT!!