criss angel discussion...

Originally posted by eyewitness86
I will keep asking even though no one ever gives an intellegent answer:

If Criss is just using props that cannot be seen and paid witnesses, then WHY ON EARTH is he the only one making money? Are you saying that you really believe that anyone with some talent and a willingness to trick video and pay off witnesses can do what he does? If so, then WHY is no one else doing it? Is Criss the only ' illusionist' to like money and fame? Are ALL the other performers OK with always being second act to Criss?

Is the nature of competition and performing one of laid back acceptance of others acts or is it an aggressive industry with talented newcomers trying to break in and make a name? I think we all know that the latter is the one that makes sense.

We can't give you an intelligent answer if you can't ask an intelligent question. But, we have tried.

Most importantly, none of us work at API Inc to have first hand knowledge of all the details.

It's like asking why is that Band, who's music is great and the lead singer is the best I've ever heard, not given airplay on the radio. They promote what sells, and in the music industry that's unfortunate. Quite honestly I wouldn't tune in and watch David Who? or Copperfield each week if they had a television series. I never paid attention to them in the past when they had their oportunity to garner themselves more attention, so there's your answer, I reflect that demographic, as do other viewers who share my opinion.

It's clear that part of CA's success his his determination, competitive nature, driven by hard work, and yes ego.

He has a show on TV, they don't, so it's him who you get to see, never knowing if other illusionists are doing these same feats - using props, and they are. I can sing pretty good, but you're never going to find out, get it?

No, you don't get it, and never will, because you keep repeating the same questons. You ask, but then put your hands over your ears going 'I don't want to hear it'. Just how old were you when you learned Santa didn't really ride his sleigh with Rudolph? What about Superman, do you think he used props? Mr.Angel has a an enterainment themed t e l e v i s i o n show.

This is.....and excuse my language one of, if not the most retarded threads I have seen here. Some of you actually believe Criss Angel. The 40 year old goth kid has supernatural abilities? How naive are you. A simpleton can even see it's not real.

reply to post by SkepticalSteve


And yet they still believe. It defies belief - if it wasn't for this thread, I'd have thought no-one believed Mr Magic-Emo-Goth was for real.

Originally posted by eyewitness86
I will keep asking even though no one ever gives an intellegent answer:

Or rather, you just ignore any intelligent answers.

If Criss is just using props that cannot be seen and paid witnesses, then WHY ON EARTH is he the only one making money? Are you saying that you really believe that anyone with some talent and a willingness to trick video and pay off witnesses can do what he does? If so, then WHY is no one else doing it? Is Criss the only ' illusionist' to like money and fame?

Angel has the financial backing of a tv network, a hotel in vegas, and his own personal fortune. You tell me who else has that type of financial capital that is in the illusion industry.

Copperfield? Had his own tv spots.

Blaine? Had his own series.

What did they have that was similar? M O N E Y! And lots of it.

Not to mention Angels connection to a whole team of engineers, producers, professional camera men.

How many young upstarts in the illusionary field have these connections and cash flow.

So, Criss feats are NEVER duplicated

Really? How would you know? You don't have cable, you admitted to as much. Therefor this is an assumption on your part. Just because you dont see it, doesnt mean it doesnt happen.

Unreal...sometimes I think that most of you have lost your critical reasoning abilities

Oh man you said it right. Sometimes i wonder which team you batting for in this debate. You make half assed statements like this all the time that apply more to you than they do to us.

Here it is: The TOTAL and UTTER absence os ANY evidence of the following: Paid witnesses that remain silent forever;

Uh, you mean like his "loyals"? Or like that chick that got split in two pieces? Or those plants that we have pointed out?

props that could account for the event,

Like the super thin but incredibly strong wire manufactured in Las Vegas that Pavil pointed out earlier in the thread? Or the lift harness that Ignorant_apre illustrated for us early in the thread?

as none are seen or possible under certain conditions, or they WOULD be seen;

So where is your degree in mechanical engineering and physics? What are you qualifications in film and photography? Or are just an armchair engineer, physicist, and camera man?

any other performer doing the EXACT same event WITH props and showing us how it is done.

Why do you think replicating an illusion will make anyone money? Why do you think that,in such a competitive environment, the Luxor would allow anyone to duplicate Angels levitation in an expose? Furthermore, how would someone get a hold of the schematics for his illusions when he has the IP rights?

Thats another major issue: If Criss is doing some high class trickery and thats all it is, why have we not seen an expose of any kind duplicating the events?

We have posted MANY expose's How many more do you want?

Daylight levitations, like the golf course event, are not duplicatable with props that cannot be seen!!

Again why would anyone do that? Why do you think there is money in that?

'Criss had a crane that was at the edge and paid all the people to act suprised and the wires are all invisible".

considering that "all the people" is probably about a dozen or less, yes those people were probably plants.

That reeks as a way to explain the plain and simple event: Criss showed up on a golf course and levitated in front of a crowd of strangers, who were flabbergasted at what they saw.

yea he just "showed up" with at least 3 camera men, more than one boom mic operator, probably a director and safety crew, got lighting and sound levels (because you have to get those levels otherwise the shots are useless) and started filming. Totally random and spur of the moment indeed...

Why is the simple truth so trying for some of you?

You should ask that question to yourself.

Criss is the King of certain elements, as proven by the effort Blain uses in a two inch levitation...

Blaine uses he Balducci technique. Plain and simple.

the rest of you simply refuse to believe the plain truth and will accept the most far out and totally UNPROVEN assumptions about how it is done before you will see the truth

YOU make unproven assumptions, not us! Prove to us for once, that Criss Levitates! Prove to us human levitation is possible without resorting to a post production video designed for entertainment!

...but that is a fault of your character and your inability to accept the facts blinds you to always falling back on the most mundane and easy to imagine answer....given a limited imagination, that is.

Gee i happen to think that character assults are against the TAC. once again, your arguments fail and YOU rely on the ridiculous and on insults.

Once again, nothing but trite and empty remarks. Put your money where your words are you hypocrite.

reply to post by dave420


It's depressing that some people can be so ignorant.

Originally posted by InSpiteOf

Originally posted by eyewitness86
That reeks as a way to explain the plain and simple event: Criss showed up on a golf course and levitated in front of a crowd of strangers, who were flabbergasted at what they saw.

yea he just "showed up" with at least 3 camera men, more than one boom mic operator, probably a director and safety crew, got lighting and sound levels (because you have to get those levels otherwise the shots are useless) and started filming. Totally random and spur of the moment indeed...

I'm a television producer and I'd just like to say that you seriously underestimated the number of people Criss took to the golf course with him...

Not to mention that the golf course is either public property or private property (yeah, yeah "duh!"), which means you need one of two different kinds of permission to film there if you are not filming a news event or a private home video. Which means you need to ask in advance if you can do so. You also need to get signed releases from all people seen in your video or film before you can put them on air...you need public liability insurance for the specific event...

your crew all need union membership...and unions in the US entertainment industy "demarcate" EVERYTHING that their members may or may not do on set. Which brings with it a whole new set of paperwork and costs...

"Criss showed up"...yeah, I'll bet he did. With 30 other people. At least. Now, those 30 people needed transportation. As did their equipment...

BTW, how good was the picture quality? I mean, that little throwaway mention of light and sound levels really doesn't capture the effort put in on a $million + production...

reply to post by HowlrunnerIV


Hey man im not in the field but its good to hear from someone who is. I was just throwing it out there.

reply to post by HowlrunnerIV


Nooo - you've got it all wrong. Criss doesn't need any of that stuff - he's magic! He just materialised out of a cloud of his own ego, flew around a bit, then disappeared in a *poof* of EmoGothness.

Seriously, thanks for the info on what's actually required. I knew there was a shedload of work required for such filming, but I didn't know just how much.

Originally posted by eyewitness86
Is Criss th
If Criss is just using props that cannot be seen and paid witnesses, then WHY ON EARTH is he the only one making money? Are you saying that you really believe that anyone with some talent and a willingness to trick video and pay off witnesses can do what he does? If so, then WHY is no one else doing it?

Nice to see you still believing eyewitness.

You do realize that custom built illusions become the proprietary rights of the purchaser right? If CA for example were to purchase the technology for the "walk up wall" stunt, no other magician could use the same rigging to do that particular trick without his permission. It's basically copyright protection. Some of these tricks cost upwards of well over 6 figures to create, fabricate and test.

That is why you don't see the average Joe Magician duplicate them, they don't have the money. The High end magicians, either don't have the permission or see no benefit in copying someone else's act.

Why doesn't CA duplicate Cyril's magic act for example? Surely he has the talent and money. He doesn't want to be a copycat and doesn't have the permission from Cyril.

Here it is: The TOTAL and UTTER absence os ANY evidence of the following: Paid witnesses that remain silent forever; props that could account for the event, as none are seen or possible under certain conditions, or they WOULD be seen; any other performer doing the EXACT same event WITH props and showing us how it is done.

Ok, once more. It has been proven that in multiple tricks stunts ect, that the same people end up appearing time and time again. The Girl Levitating is the most obvious one, but there has been at least 4 other situations where the same person has been introduced as "we've never met before right". While they may or may not be paid, they are most certainly "in" on it.

I personally have provided links that if you were to investigate them fully, would lead to to see how CA performed the Luxor apex levitation.

I will not spoon feed you, research the links and keep poking around, if you want to see how that particular trick was done.

You keep on believing though.............

Oh Eyewitness I do believe you and PR might have been mentioned on tonights show! Not really, but he started the show saying he doesn't have supernatural powers, no-one does (according to him) and the more he says he doesn't, the more people say he's covering it up. Too bad you missed it, since you don't have a TV set (a clue as to why you're not much of an eyewitness to the entertainment industry), but maybe you can catch it on youtube - the show was titled "Premonition'. He performed telekinesis.

Also if you had a TV set, tonight on the second new episode you could also have interacted with him through your tv screen. It woud be interesting to see how much of a believer you really are. Perhaps you can still try it by touching your computer monitor, but remember it isn't live. He did this before on the supernatural tv special, and said he received alot of emails from people saying they felt something, then he commented (in the commentary) how amazingly easy it is to trick the mind "it's such a powerful thing". This proves the point an illusion can be achieved simply by his words, like when he says "no-one else can do what I do" you believe that simply because he said it, along with "we've never met before". BTW, also in this dvd commentary, he did say the coin through the arm was an illusion, which is one I think you've said is real. However he said eating the razor blades was real, and has cut himself. I found that interesting.

reply to post by pavil


Here is John Gaughan's levitation patent, as used by David Copperfield.

I want to applaud every single person in this thread, "deniers" and "believers" alike. I spent the past month or so reading every single point, counter point, video, theory, debunking, rebunking (is that even a word?!), etc.

I've watched pavil and eyewitness and paul_richard and violet and everyone else involved truly put so much time and effort into this discussion and it really made me in awe about the entire thing.

My personal opinion on the situation at hand is the more popular opinion that Criss Angel is an amazing illusionist who did spend a large portion of his life truly working on and perfecting a lot of illusions, whom happened to get a little bit full of himself on one level and is getting a little sloppier with hiding his illusions as time goes on. Criss's "Supernatural" special was an amazing feat of performance art and illusion, and Mindfreak started off insanely well as well.

I do believe in Chi, Group Entities, etc. however I can't faithfully sit back and say that Criss is involved in any of it.

Paul and Eyewittness do bring up the fact that Criss speaks of his demonstrations of "Mind, Body, and Spirit" as proof that he is using a higher power of some sort to do his levitations and a few other of, what I believe to be, his illusions.

During the first season of mindfreak Criss does talk about how his body is conditioned and trained to be at a certain peak that he has to keep it at that level to be able to do certain feats.

Now in my opinion this is how it breaks down: mind (mental conditioning to focus during certain stunts), body (obvious his physical conditioning is excellent), and spirit (his faith in Christianity gives him the will to put his life on the line with some of these stunts)

Like I said, I read every single post -- and I do applaud everyone for spending so much time, and effort to voice their opinion. Even if at some points I did become highly aggitated at the lack of proper evidence from the believer camp.

Originally posted by stevenreanimator
I want to applaud every single person in this thread, "deniers" and "believers" alike. I spent the past month or so reading every single point, counter point, video, theory, debunking, rebunking (is that even a word?!), etc.

I've watched pavil and eyewitness and paul_richard and violet and everyone else involved truly put so much time and effort into this discussion and it really made me in awe about the entire thing.

Paul and Eyewittness do bring up the fact that Criss speaks of his demonstrations of "Mind, Body, and Spirit" as proof that he is using a higher power of some sort to do his levitations and a few other of, what I believe to be, his illusions.

You read all these pages?! That's amazing, and thanks for taking the time to read through all of our posts, and not call us all retards for having the discussion.

Mainly my points were, when stating CA does not believe in the paranormal, is that those are his beliefs, his statements, not necassarily(sp?) mine. My goal was to show he isn't calling upon discarnate entities, and is simply an illusionist, and much of what he says can lead the viewer to think he is a supernatural being. CA knows full well he is talked about this way, and that comparisons are made to him being Jesus or the devil, and everything else in between.

----

To clarify my opinions further about his illusions, also being presented when he speaks from the time the show starts, to the credits rolling. The mind, body and spirit talk is something he mentions in his book, which I've read and come to the conclusion is a continuation of the illusion he creates in the mind of the viewer, and in this case the reader. However, on other occasions during interviews, he was called out on faking that when he claimed on Mindfreak he used this MB&S method to lift a car, and he admitted in this radio show, that 'ok, I faked it, at least I'm being honest now, an honest liar'.

In addition to this, there was a behind the scenes video of him filming Burning Man episode, with Jeff McBride. He and Jeff went through the artistry of how Jeff would throw in all these flaming fingertips he has, and "Ok, I can say this, and then you say that, it will be cool, we play it all up to look and feel so magical etc'. They laughed about it in a mocking sort of way. It demonstrated to me, how when CA talks from his chair in between takes about his stunts, that it's alot of dramatising, lest we forget his show is for entertainment purposes. I don't discount the mind body and spirit idea, but I'm not convinced he really subscribes to this idea himself, but uses it to reel in people of all different beliefs. Others may disagree with me about this, and that's ok! He's quite a mysterious character, and I don't think anyone can really figure him out, and that's something deliberately orchestrated by him.

Exactly, Criss is very enigmatic on purpose and that goes all the way back to his early days as an illusionist. Molding an image is important in any form of entertainment and Criss found exactly the right image to fill the gap in modern magic. David Blaine and Criss came out around the time when the word "magician" or "illusionist" is mentioned it only brought up images of either big stage magicians, or seigfried and roy, or your standard birthday party clown type magician.

Blaine came with the quiet, mysterious, everyman type look -- not someone you'd really take a second glance at unless they were levitating or locked inside a giant water tank, while Criss came with the darker Gothic look with his long black hair and loves truly scaring and creeping people out, such as his slight of hand with the Spiders.

Street Magic is a great art form and I respect it so very much (mostly cause I try to do some of it and my stubby fingers make it so hard to do sleight of hand). I admit when I first saw Criss Angel i was very much so taken back by his skill and got lost in the enigma that he built around himself.

"He has to have SOME type of powers to enhance these illusions" -- which stuck with me until the novelty wore off of his image and I ended up seeing through his Glamour. (and I don't mean Glamour in the magick sense) and realized he was a lot like Marilyn Manson in a way - a very smart business man who knows how to market himself exactly the right way and entertain people with something they didn't know they wanted to see (or hear in manson's case) until they saw it.

Anyway -- back to the real topic at hand!

The Luxor Light levitation was spectacular and through the hints and reading all of the different possibilities it is rather easy to piece together exactly how it is done - I didn't notice anyone checking to see if a permit would be needed for the type of rigging needed, I know it was mentioned a lot back and fourth; so I did a little bit of research on that and all I came up with so far was when you are building a new business which doesn't help with the Luxor Levitation but I'll keep plugging around on lasvegasnevada.gov and see if i can locate anything that will prove or disprove the need for the permit.

However from what little I do know about local permits in my area, and from doing my own films -- I don't believe that Vegas would have many different standards at all and that a permit would not be required for that temporary addition, at least not one above the proper permits for the helicopter and for filming the entire event.

I admit I don't have much more to bring to the actual discussion in terms of more proof of how his illusions were created and performed so I'll end it here for now so that I don't veer too off topic and violate the TOS, but whether EW and PR are right, or if those who respect and enjoy Criss as an Illusionist are right is ultimately inconsequential... just enjoy Criss, true child of Magick--- or just an illusionist.

Even I can get carried away watching CA, and start to wonder if he does have some abilities. I even wished FOX hadn't exposed him as they did, but then I'm being a hypocrite there because I posted the expose piece in this thread, but it was already circulatiing anyways, and was part of this discussion to bring it here. It would have made it's way here sooner or later.

I've never really watched Blaine, or heard of him before to be honest. So I couldn't comment fairly or objectively on how he reaches out to an audience in his performances. CA says he can reach out, and that is one thing I find to be very true. Whatever it may be that connects to each person individually. Others loathe him. He puts alot of effort into his image, and I'm sure he puts even more effort into guarding it. I do think part of this is he's visually appealing, not to disregard everything else that's thrown into the mix. He's different and it's this unique approach to magic that makes him stand out. It may not matter if "others can do what Criss does" as the believers keep asking, because they may not attract the same attention. Thus his investors are going to market him, and focus their attention on him. It would be counter-productive for these investors to scatter this about on other Illusionists, because it would detract from him being the focal point.

I just watched his show the other night. Why? I guess I got mindfreaked!!
But that's 30 minutes of my life I will never get back.
It's only a matter of time until his landlord tells him to make his furniture disapear. I'd like to see how he pulls that one off.

reply to post by Vector J


i realize this ad is old....i saw a stunt where criss was trapped in a cage and dropped into a body of water where he had 'x' amount of time to escape before he ran out of air.....if he didn't need air for 24 hrs in that trick then what the hell lol....I dont mind watching his shows, it just pisses me off he doesnt show us how.....I realize that people can not fly, levitate, call it what you want, but the law of physics shoot down his tricks people....go to f'ing school and learn something....theres a theory saying that people can pass through objects in an infinite amount of time to where your cells realign with the object your pressing against. But like i said infinte amount of time, meaning, you're dead cuz it would take centuries to do.....if you look at the shows and clips you find on the internet, the people are people from different shoots then what they show you. Meaning, where criss passed through armoured truck, different stunt then what the people watched.....Give me a sponsor and ill do my own magic tricks and just edit the films and post it online or tv....it's just like models nowadays, they're computer inhanced images!!! I think it's still cool what criss does, just think peole.....If these are real,then im FULLY convinced that CRISS ANGEL SOLD HIS SOUL TO THE DEVIL, and there are no laws of physics.....I just came back from vegas yesterday, criss is just a new Houdini in our time...ILLUSIONS!!!TRICKS!!!!STUNTS!!!!!NOT REALLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! contact me at [email protected] if you wanna talk about any of this!

Eyewitness, here is an answer to your most repetitive question: "How come is Criss the only one on Earth who can do this ...?"

According to this interview revealing details about his upcoming Believe show with Cirque, he has acquired the assistance of NASA ... and that this collaboration is exclusive.to CA

CA: " ... 90 percent of the illusions are from as far back as 15 years, some 10 years and it took that long and NASA to be able to bring it to fruition ..."

Would this bring you closer to realising (and possibly admitting) Criss Angel has access to advanced technology, or will you continue your beliefs that he possesses a "gift"?

RL: So without giving away secrets explain what NASA contributed.

CA: I cannot say.

RL: What was the space -break through with NASA that enabled you to do this.

CA: I can’t say. I can only say NASA.

RL: So something that NASA discovered in outer-space you are using?

CA: Something they utilize for their space shuttle
is also something that is utilized in the show. You cannot see this
anywhere, nor can it ever be copied because it is so technologically
advanced - the only two people that have some of this technology are
this show and NASA. That is a true statement.

Interview

[edit on 20-9-2008 by violet]

reply to post by violet


hey - great find - lets see if EW bothers to reply - or just waits a while and spews the same " question "

another question EW studiously avoids answering - is the logical counter point :

why doesnt mr angel copy the tricks of other contemporary illusionists ?

That is an excellent find violet! It pretty much solidifies the fact that there's nothing paranormal about his performances... except for Alien Technology!

But seriously -- what kind of pull does Criss have to be able to actually work with NASA on an illusion? I want that kind of pull.