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criss angel discussion...

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posted on Feb, 20 2008 @ 01:09 AM
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Originally posted by Qwenn
However the supporting wires need to be ( guided ) above the performer and there are a couple of ways to achieve this.


The wires don’t always need to be “above” the performer. I think that’s one of the keys to CA’s illusion. You can prove this yourself: Take a pencil and a long string. Tie the pencil in the middle of the string and pull outwards (horizontally) on the string. The pencil will rise/float. Wave something above and below and nothing obstructs the “magic” pencil. Put enough wires from enough angles and you can move an angel. Or of course, just use the psychic- Chi-God-Magneto-Obi Wan Kenobi powers that Chris Angel possesses.




posted on Feb, 20 2008 @ 05:29 AM
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Originally posted by passenger
The wires don’t always need to be “above” the performer. I think that’s one of the keys to CA’s illusion. You can prove this yourself: Take a pencil and a long string. Tie the pencil in the middle of the string and pull outwards (horizontally) on the string.


Well, in this case, the wires are also above the pencil, untill they are fully spread appart... Not directly above, but higher in any case.

Of course with a human, you wouldn't pull untill the wires would be horizontal. It would put too much stress on the wires as well.

[edit on 20/2/08 by deezee]



posted on Feb, 20 2008 @ 06:24 AM
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reply to post by deezee
[more

Yes, it is a matter of degree as to how high the wires have to be rigged, if as passenger suggested they could be horizontally positioned, this is both right and wrong. It has more to do with the body harness than anything, for a single hookup, it has to be positioned directly above, for a double hookup, it has to be above or side to side. depending on the height of lift needed, so are best positioned higher than six feet or so. The more horizontal, the less lift and this not only brings in wire strain issues above the normal factor desired, but also balance issues as well. Normal double rigs are positioned at waist height, but the BEST single rig harnesses have a lower anchor position, giving a much better freedom to the performer, these FEEL more like flying for real, and yes you can still do the peter pan style flying with these, just not the somersults. Needles to say for a high outdoor fly, you can use rooftops, for a rooftop fly, you just use buildings that are higher than the one you fly from. Contrary to popular belief that C.A. is the only person to fly outdoors from building to building, or on open land, it happens every day in the film industry, from Martial arts films to Sci-fi, they just call these people Stunt teams.



posted on Feb, 20 2008 @ 06:52 AM
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relying to both the above posts , look at this link :

rigging simulator

here is a screen cap



just a 7 degree deflection produces only 2.6 kn tension - for a static load that is roughly 260 kg

PS - the convesion from kg to kn is NOT strictly 1:10 , but for rough calculations this figure can be used

also as the disclaimer on the TAG site states - the maths used to calculate the loadings is heavily simplified - as rope strtech and dynamics spikes require some serious number crunching to get an exact value

but the TAG site is aimed at climbers and rope access technicians , who are using off the shelf equipment and cannot calculate EXACT angles and loads for every job - so there is good saftey margin

and just looking through my rack - none of the pullies or jumars i have for such work have a SWL below 6kn

now just to inject some levity - why do you thoink mr angel always " levitates " young pretty females who have a low body mass ???

he has never attempted to levitate a 6 foot 6 line backer or sumo has he



posted on Feb, 20 2008 @ 09:42 AM
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Gee, if only rigging from at least two other hotels could have been hidden from view!! There is NO way that Criss could have gotten all three hotels, some competitors, to allow for the construction os a device that would span all three hotels and contain wires and props and account for his act. No way. It would be a logistical nightmare and require permits and engineers, the stringing of wires across a long span, mechanics to haul the man up and down, etc.

NO evidence that this could even be possible in the event seen exists. This is PURE speculation based on the belief that Criss can hide all the installation of the props and wires and pulleys and supports from everyone and still have them totally unseen by the video's and witnesess.
Nonsense!! This is just desperation in action, thats all.

ANY wires would have been seen or thrown a small shadow across the scene as the light was so terribly bright. That light meant that no props could be hidden. The light exposes the utter futility of the deniers: No props that could have been rigged between the three hotels would have been seen. The process of rigging would have been complex and required the cooperation of competing hotels, who would have NO reason to give the Luxor puiblicity while they stay in the dark...no way. Why would they?

Plus, you also have to resort to calling the Chief Engioneer a LIAR, and if you do that without any proof then you are guilty of character assassination as well as failing to prove your allegation in any way whatsoever. The Chief told me, and you can call him yourself if you think that I am lying as well, that ' nothing was up there but Criss and the light". He DENIED emphatically that ANY equipment was used..he denied that any platforms or wires or supports were used..he denied that anything was allowed to be attached to or allowed in the hotel that would account for what is seen.

In other words, Criss just went up there and levitated. Simple. All of the vain imaginings to the contrary, there is no evidence whatsoever, in any way, shape or form, that would give anyone reason to believe that the event was anything but what is seen. You can imagine vast structures attached to several hotels...or paid and silent employees and witnesses...or the lack of interest by any other person to achieve fame and fortune by topping CFriss....but your imagination does not convince the critical observer that what we see is anything but what happened.

If all it takes to get rich and famous in Vegas is having the most tricky props, then surely someone would finance an up and coming young ' illusionist ' to top Criss feats and get the gold and glory. But of course this never happens and Criss events never get topped..and the reason a denier will give for this are so incredible and far out that it is MUCH easier to believe in levitation.

There were NO winches and hydraulics ands wires that cannot be seen in the worlds brightest light...and there is no proof that such a contraption could be or was used by Criss. The hotels around the Luxor could NOT have supported such a scheme, and there is NO reason why they should make a competitor more famous just to help Criss take people away from their business. Makes no sense. but of course, what denier excuse ever does?



posted on Feb, 20 2008 @ 10:04 AM
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Originally posted by eyewitness86
Gee, if only rigging from at least two other hotels could have been hidden from view!! There is NO way that Criss could have gotten all three hotels, some competitors, to allow for the construction os a device that would span all three hotels and contain wires and props and account for his act. No way. It would be a logistical nightmare and require permits and engineers, the stringing of wires across a long span, mechanics to haul the man up and down, etc.

Good points EW.



Originally posted by eyewitness86
If all it takes to get rich and famous in Vegas is having the most tricky props, then surely someone would finance an up and coming young ' illusionist ' to top Criss feats and get the gold and glory. But of course this never happens and Criss events never get topped..and the reason a denier will give for this are so incredible and far out that it is MUCH easier to believe in levitation.

You are absolutely right.


I might add that not only has there been no other illusionist, poor or wealthy, who has topped Criss Angel's high levitations (with an abundance of witnesses) but no one has even DUPLICATED any of those feats either in a street magic capacity



Originally posted by eyewitness86
There were NO winches and hydraulics ands wires that cannot be seen in the worlds brightest light...and there is no proof that such a contraption could be or was used by Criss. The hotels around the Luxor could NOT have supported such a scheme, and there is NO reason why they should make a competitor more famous just to help Criss take people away from their business. Makes no sense. but of course, what denier excuse ever does?

True. Additionally we also have his various high levitations in broad daylight with no structures around at all. No one has topped or even duplicated those either. Like when he flew around a golf course.

However, I would like to see someone do so.

He is just a little too full of himself.





posted on Feb, 20 2008 @ 10:21 AM
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reply to post by Paul_Richard
 



PR, I have been begging the deniers for a long time to explain why no one has simply done the exact same thing that Criss did, USING props that cannot be seen, and explaining how the props were made to be invisible. That would settle it. If even ONE event could be replicated, showing us a man levitating in public under the same or similar conditions, and show us how the props were hidden, they win.

But of COURSE this never happens. NO replication. No one showing how Criss could have used props yet had them invisible. Not one example of an event even close. WHY? we know why. it is impossible to replicate Criss events WITH props because there is no way on earth to hide them from both the film and witnesses under the worlds brightest light..OR sunlight, as in the golf course event.

Of course the golf course event requires vast insanity to rebut by the deneiers: Cranes that are later eliminated from the video by deceptive practices, wires that are done the same way..witnesses all paid off and silent forever..etc. The same old tired and silly litany of denier beliefs. They MUST come up with these grand schemes and conspiracies of silence and pay off's..otherwise they would be forecd to admit that Criss can and does levitate.

I can just picture denier logic in action in everyday life: A deniers child is caught on film shoplifting a DVD. But when it comes to trial, rather than plead guilty, the deniers says: My son was targeted by the security when he came in, for some unknown reason. he never stole ahything. The eyewitnesses that confirm the film are all paid liars...the film was altered to show my son's face when it was some other child. The DVD that was taken from under his shirt was planted there to support the tricked film and wrongfully charge my son". When asked WHY the store would go thru all that when they would have no reason or need to, the denier just says: "Hey, no one needs any reason..they do it just because.."

Like the judge in that case, we also laugh at the audacity of the unfounded allegations and nonsense, and we deny that their protests have any validity and deny their suppostions as basless and irrational excuses to deny the truth: The is is a thief.

Well, Criss is a levitator, and to conjure up silly and unproven motivations and vast conspiracies only shows the utter desperation of the denir, and the lack of even a shred of common sense or proof is a hallmark of their need for a jundane explanation for any event that challenges their conceptions of what reality is. Sad, and silly.



posted on Feb, 20 2008 @ 11:42 AM
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reply to post by eyewitness86
 


Just to address a couple of points, I said wires in the building to building, not the Luxor. Now you say that only would have to do the same to convince you, then go on to say " and show us the equipment used and show how they hid it". Why all of the above, if someone duplicates it, that should be enough for you, are you just planning to be the Big Boss who reveals it on You-tube, it looks like that to me. You need to spend more time reading posts, not reeling out the same old, same old, same old. Then you will have less need to accuse people of saying things which they have never said, perhaps if you spent more time researching, and less time posting, you would have more to contribute to the discussion. By the way, I thought that the Luxor was the tallest building in the area, so why would I even dream of suggesting that taller buildings were used on this one, but surely you would have pointed this out in your post?


[edit on 20-2-2008 by Qwenn]



posted on Feb, 20 2008 @ 05:49 PM
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Just curious but why have none of the criss angel believers, addressed the building to building levitation video that I posted earlier which shows the magic of video editing thus revealing how it was done. In the editing room
Can anyone debunk that video point by point disproving the edits listed?

for your convenience, here is the video
www.youtube.com...





posted on Feb, 21 2008 @ 12:43 AM
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EYEWITNESS Your child shoplifting analogy is stupid. How does that compare to a TV Show which has good reason to manipulate film and create extra drama? There you show once again how you lump all denials into one basket. If I deny this, then I must also deny that.

Wires and shadows can be edited out of the film. We've discussed this possiblity! On the bulding float, how is it that when there are shots of him floating, there is a mix of blue sky and big clouds? BUT ... when they show the sped up version of the whole float, the sky is completely gray and overcast?

The crowd is small, and doesn't appear to be one of his events where he advertised on his website for fans to attend. We know now that he posts invitations for his stunts when he wants big crowds with authentic clad-in-mindfreak-clothing-tattoo-sporting-fans to attend. Why is this different for these illusions?



posted on Feb, 21 2008 @ 06:07 AM
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This is hilarious. Criss Angel has been shown to deceive his viewers before. Like that time he made that car disappear, when he just drove it behind a wall. It's ridiculous. He's riding on the coat tails of David Blaine (who's also a sham artist), trying to make some money by being a dark brooding emo-psychic-telefreak that appeals to girls of a certain age. It clearly works. You can post as many videos as you want pointing out the obvious fraud, but the believers will not be swayed. If Criss did have these powers, he could perform them under laboratory conditions and make a shedload of cash as an actual psychic. As it is, he just runs around Las Vegas performing for gullible folks who lap up his showmanship.



posted on Feb, 21 2008 @ 06:21 AM
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reply to post by dave420
 



Then please tell us why ONLY Criss Angel has ever done this before or since? If all it takes is tricking film, why aren't more people getting rich and famous, huh? Is Criss the only one to have the nerve to make a fortune by altering video? if so, why? Why has no one, not one person on earth, simply replicated what Criss has done or go one step further?

The main reason that you guys fail is that all you ever have are ideas and guesses, but no proof. Guessing about the overcast conditions on a certain day long ago is NOT proof that Criss has props in the high levitations. If all it takes is a few bucks to trick film...and pay off witnesses..etc, then surely to God at least ONE other person would take advantage of the public's stupidity to make some money..right?

Or is Criss alone low enough to use such things to get rich? We know better than that, don't we? I CAN be convinced that Criss uses props in the high levitations: just show one real and convincing bit of proof. ONE witness that can prove a payoff to lie, one film expert that can certify that the Luxor and golf course videos, all of them, have had the props ' removed ' to deceive, something real...not just a guess as to how he does it.

Since you are accusing Criss of using devious and fraudulent means to make his living, surely you can do better than what we have seen so far. If not, then don't be so cocksure that you are right; you are not. NO evidence has been shown that proves that Criss used props in the high levittaions. Only guesses by those who cannot see the truth thropugh their veil of supposition. Prove it or relent.



posted on Feb, 21 2008 @ 07:03 AM
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Well, you're willing to think it's down to psychic abilities when there is absolutely no evidence for it. I don't have to prove squat. It's up to him to prove himself, not for me to prove he's a fraud - he's the one making the outrageous claims, not I.

I understand why you like the guy, I really do - he's a showman. I've just seen enough of these charlatans come and go (Uri Geller, etc.) and the work of James Randi, to know that stuff like this has always, ALWAYS been fraudulent in the past. If Criss Angel really has super-special powers, he could use them for the greater good, instead of snappy TV shows.

So, he's either a fraud, or an egotistical person who'd rather use their super abilities to make money for himself and his friends. There is no third alternative.

[edit on 21/2/08 by dave420]



posted on Feb, 21 2008 @ 07:13 AM
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And as for other folks who perform flying illusions, David Copperfield did just that. He even patented his flying harness (which allows him full movement, without any visible wires, and nothing above/below him). You can read it here



posted on Feb, 21 2008 @ 08:33 AM
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Originally posted by eyewitness86
reply to post by dave420
 



Then please tell us why ONLY Criss Angel has ever done this before or since? If all it takes is tricking film, why aren't more people getting rich and famous, huh? Is Criss the only one to have the nerve to make a fortune by altering video? if so, why? Why has no one, not one person on earth, simply replicated what Criss has done or go one step further?

The main reason that you guys fail is that all you ever have are ideas and guesses, but no proof. Guessing about the overcast conditions on a certain day long ago is NOT proof that Criss has props in the high levitations. If all it takes is a few bucks to trick film...and pay off witnesses..etc, then surely to God at least ONE other person would take advantage of the public's stupidity to make some money..right?


Take a look at this video "September Clues" the use of TV CGI and Mis-Direction etc on 911.

video.google.co.uk...


And compare it to the camera tricks/cgi used in "Criss Angel May Be Illusion" (B2B), the "September Clues" video shows a higher more expensive/controlled grade of trickery/mis-direction, but, it is still the same techniques.

These techniques are probably being used all the time on the tv controlled populace, whether advertising or news or tv shows/films.

and EWS your actually in a thread about "September Clues" www.abovetopsecret.com...

[edit on 21-2-2008 by TommyGunn]



posted on Feb, 21 2008 @ 09:16 AM
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Originally posted by dave420
And as for other folks who perform flying illusions, David Copperfield did just that. He even patented his flying harness (which allows him full movement, without any visible wires, and nothing above/below him). You can read it here
.
And you can see it here.

To reiterate what I stated a page ago, here are the points of reason and observation that indicate his levitation and flying to be only with the aid of wires:

1. David Copperfield never does his flying outside (in the open air), as in a street magic video.

2. David Copperfield has never done a street magic video at all. One whereby he levitates off of city sidewalks, golf courses, parks, etc.

3. David Copperfield never has any witnesses to validate that he is flying outside of a specially rigged magician's stage.

In order to have wires, there has to be a complex and bulky apparatus overhead, i.e., above a magician's stage. Criss Angel does his levitations out in the OPEN AIR. No chance or need of having an apparatus overhead. This constitutes a BIG DIFFERENCE between how David Copperfield and Criss Angel pull it off



posted on Feb, 21 2008 @ 09:19 AM
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reply to post by Paul_Richard
 


Not particularly. All it means is they have to pay some folks off or have stooges, and edit accordingly. Occam's razor suggests it is just trickery, and until he proves himself in a scientific test, he's no more magic than a sandwich.

We never get to see the big picture with Criss Angel's stuff. Everything is tightly choreographed, and we've even seen how he does some of his tricks (such as the disappearing go-kart). If he's that great, why does he need the assistance of a bit of wall to make an "illusion" - surely he could just keep flying around and scaring people.



posted on Feb, 21 2008 @ 09:34 AM
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If he's doing all this stuff for real, why does he keep screwing up?



posted on Feb, 21 2008 @ 10:34 AM
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in response to the previous post of "if its fake, why isnt everyone doing it" well, I dont know maybe others think its corny and dont want to stoop to the level of editing film, paying actors to look like real everyday people? Maybe others have better morals? I dont know, but what I can tell you is this, Criss himself has admitted they are "illusions" tricks, if you will, there are more than enough videos on youtube explaining and showing how the tricks are done, the crawl through window, trick? a hole in the glass and paid actors, the chair at the pool when the girl disappears? a mirror, you can tell by the shadows, and paid actors, the walking on water, clear post mounted in the water for him to step and creative editing along with, yup, you guessed it, paid actors.....its not real, he is not really able to levitate, or crawl through glass, or make people disappear, its an illusion. Heck I even saw him lift a taxi cab, guess what, you can tell the car had a ton of weight in the back and the front was modified, the suspension on the front was altered also, so once again he doesnt have super strength, he has money and the ability to build props and make them work, pay actors, edit in the cutting room and so on.

[edit on 21-2-2008 by ringing]



posted on Feb, 21 2008 @ 12:04 PM
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reply to post by ringing
 


Well put. I wouldn't hold my breath for any of these believers to take your logical points on board. I expect we'll be treated to some "he's only saying they're not real because they really are and it would scare people to know he's so powerful" or some such nonsense. The fact people get taken in by this guy is incredible, as he's so obviously full of poop.




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